I think the owners that RW is fighting are the people who will save the fran./ league

[Mitchy moo]

The Snyders, krafts, jones's and other people of big business that own NFL franchises have a knack for knowing how big business gets done. They put their best lawyers in front of the Networks best lawyers and realize they can come out of this with really huge bank. That huge bank pays for players to cash in and creates security for the league in general. These guys are dealing with billions of dollars and represented the league quite well. Guys like RW don't know how to get into those types of people's doors nor is he sharp enough to handle it.

RW is the type that he doesn't understand it, he says no (like cincy's owner). What's best for the league and the Bills is past what RW can comprehend. The big money and their big gun attorneys will continue to make sure that we have a Buffalo Bills and fund are underachieving teams ***.

When a Tom G. gets a hold of a franchise and has the pockets and resources to do it right, you'll get great results. Please note the Sabres and their suprising ability to sell out all of their games. If you told me when Tom G. took over that we would be a SC contender that sold out all of it's home games, help fill arena's around the league with Sabres fans, I would of said you are nuts.

You can plainly see what a great legal team and intelligent lawyers can do for a franchise / league. Please spare me that Bettman's the man that is helping hockey, he isn't doing anything as of late. Bettman gets credit for holding hockey in Buffalo and keeping it together temporarily, cudo's to him. Tom G. is the man that's going to shine our area up.

[BillsNick]

:movie:

[OpIv37]

What's best for the league and the Krafts and Jones' and Snyder's isn't what's best for the Bills. That's the whole problem.

And where is Golisano going to get more resources? Buffalo's economy is down and, unlike DC and Boston, the city has a limited capacity to support an NFL team. Ralph has it pretty well maxed out as it is.

[ICE74129]

first off scoob it was cinci's owner, not clevelands.

What the real problem is, is the BUFFALO aka Western NY Economy can't support the bills.

Read the article I posted. Buffalo needs to charge 80.00 per ticket per game for the cheapest seats to get up to speed. That isn't going to happen in WNY and the other owners know it. Hell the NFL knows it.

Its my opinion that they really dont give a damn about history or old school, its just about the money

[Mitchy moo]

What's best for the league and the Krafts and Jones' and Snyder's isn't what's best for the Bills. That's the whole problem.

And where is Golisano going to get more resources? Buffalo's economy is down and, unlike DC and Boston, the city has a limited capacity to support an NFL team. Ralph has it pretty well maxed out as it is.

The Sabres will have sold twice as many tickets this season as the Bills did this past year by season end. The idea of getting people to want to be there is having a successful franchise that people want to be part of. When you go to watch a Sabres game, it's just loaded with nice things and marketed properly. When you go to the Ralph now or from 10 years ago it looks the same. The new scoreboard sounds great but I came to watch a football game not a scoreboard.

We have millions of people within a 90 mile radius and the only real NY state based NFL franchise. If marketed properly the stadium would have a waiting list. Think Green Bay is any bigger than Buffalo?? Try to get a season seat there, (30 + year wait). Tell me what the big draw is to Green Bay, their industry there? That's what I thought.

[ICE74129]

Green Bay sells tickets because of 1) they are willing to pay whatever is charged, 2) have an icon like Favre, 3) for the most part put a WINNING team on the field.

[THATHURMANATOR]

If the team is winning 80 bucks a ticket would sell easily. That is only 640 for the year. NO PROBLEM!!!

[Mitchy moo]

If the team is winning 80 bucks a ticket would sell easily. That is only 640 for the year. NO PROBLEM!!!

Exactly. Do you think anyone wanted to go to a Sabres game when they stunk?? The list is full now and back logging as we speak. People are paying $1,500 a seat there and it's the NHL, not the vaunted NFL.

The NFL is the most tracked sport of them all in the US, bar none. We put a contender on the field, the stands will be packed and loud. How many home games we're blacked out in the early 90's?? Not that many, the stands we're full.

See Tom G. did this little thing called a deal on a playoff seat, regular price. You just need to sign up and put 20% down and you'll get a season ticket next year. Funny thing is the deeper we went in the playoffs, the higher the deposit count. This year there are no seats left, think that worked??

[Michael82]

Terrible post! Synder, Kraft, and Jones are destroying the league! They are taking the game away from regular Joe Schmoe fans like us and making it very corporate. If those idiots get their way, none of us will be able to afford going to a game. :ill:

[Mitchy moo]

Terrible post! Synder, Kraft, and Jones are destroying the league! They are taking the game away from regular Joe Schmoe fans like us and making it very corporate. If those idiots get their way, none of us will be able to afford going to a game. :ill:

They are actually making the league a household name so more people like us want to show up and buy a ticket. If it costs more to go see a team that has a real chance to win it all, is it worth the extra money?

I would pay to go see a winner, as long as it's not like $200 a game or something stupid. I think $100 a ticket is fair if we win it all. I know the games won't be blacked out and berman will be saying no one circles the wagons........................

[Jan Reimers]

The NFL needs to avoid going the way of NASCAR, which has become so big market, big sponsor and commercial driven that it has forgotten its roots, history, and traditional fan base. Its popularity has really leveled off, and actually declined, the past few years.

The NFL needs small market teams and some amount of parity to retain its popularity and, more importantly, its TV ratings. Driving out teams like the Bills will ultimately be detrimental to the league.

That's what Snyder, Jones and Kraft have to understand.

[Mitchy moo]

The NFL needs to avoid going the way of NASCAR, which has become so big market, big sponsor and commercial driven that it has forgotten its roots, history, and traditional fan base. Its popularity has really leveled off, and actually declined, the past few years.

The NFL needs small market teams and some amount of parity to retain its popularity and, more importantly, its TV ratings. Driving out teams like the Bills will ultimately be detrimental to the league.

That's what Snyder, Jones and Kraft have to understand.

There are NFL flags hung at every corner of the Continental US and many points in between for just that reason.

[jamze132]

The NFL needs to avoid going the way of NASCAR, which has become so big market, big sponsor and commercial driven that it has forgotten its roots, history, and traditional fan base. Its popularity has really leveled off, and actually declined, the past few years.

The NFL needs small market teams and some amount of parity to retain its popularity and, more importantly, its TV ratings. Driving out teams like the Bills will ultimately be detrimental to the league.

That's what Snyder, Jones and Kraft have to understand.
I completely agree with this post.

IMO, I think that small market teams, in general, have blue collar fans without a lot of money that are willing to spend their hard earned money on their team because they believe it's the life force for that city. And in Buffalo's case, it is. Without the Bills, I don't think the Sabres will be as big of a sale as they are now. Fans like continuity. They like seeing the Sabres, but they absolutley love seeing the Bills. It's in Buffalo's best inerest to do whatever necessary to keep the Bills in Buffalo. And to be honest, I think Golisano needs to step up and give Ralph an offer. If he can do for the Bills what he did for the Sabres, then the city and it's inhabitants will enjoy the benefits.

[YardRat]

They are actually making the league a household name so more people like us want to show up and buy a ticket. If it costs more to go see a team that has a real chance to win it all, is it worth the extra money?

I would pay to go see a winner, as long as it's not like $200 a game or something stupid. I think $100 a ticket is fair if we win it all. I know the games won't be blacked out and berman will be saying no one circles the wagons........................

Ralph Wilson and his contemporaries made the league a household name before douchebags like Jones, Kraft, and Snyder were wet behind the ears.

They're the ones that OWE the old-schoolers, not the other way around.

[YardRat]

P.S. ---

When Jones, Kraft, and Snyder put their balls on the line and start from scratch a professional sports league that becomes successful, they can start wondering if they're good enough to carry Ralph's jock. Until then, they should just STFU and be thankful for the gift given them.

[Jan Reimers]

How did Major League Baseball go from being America's Pastime, to playing second fiddle behind the NFL? Primarily because it became a league of haves and have nots, where the big city teams with huge payrolls tend to dominate, while the Pittsburghs, Kansas Cities, Tampa Bays, Milwaukees and others can't even retain their good young players.

The greedy big market owners - despite the salary cap - are pushing the NFL in that direction by their attempts to deny revenue sharing to the smaller teams.

[ICE74129]

P.S. ---

When Jones, Kraft, and Snyder put their balls on the line and start from scratch a professional sports league that becomes successful, they can start wondering if they're good enough to carry Ralph's jock. Until then, they should just STFU and be thankful for the gift given them.

no. sorry no. Yeah ralph and co started it but the joneses etal are the ones that have made it the big business/ media phenom it is now. Maybe its time for ralph to step aside and lets get an owner that will do what kraft did and take a dying franchise and make it into one of the top teams.

Also its time to cut the old school bs and put the team in a location that allows more fans better and easier access. Its obvious the buffalo economy can't cut it, so lets move the team somewhere in NY to be able to draw on more money.

but the homers will say I won't watch if they aren't in Buffalo. Ok then pony up about 85.00 per seat per game minimum, and start paying 100K for luxury suites instead of 25k. Bottom line, you cant have it both ways.

[Mitchy moo]

no. sorry no. Yeah ralph and co started it but the joneses etal are the ones that have made it the big business/ media phenom it is now. Maybe its time for ralph to step aside and lets get an owner that will do what kraft did and take a dying franchise and make it into one of the top teams.

Also its time to cut the old school bs and put the team in a location that allows more fans better and easier access. Its obvious the buffalo economy can't cut it, so lets move the team somewhere in NY to be able to draw on more money.

but the homers will say I won't watch if they aren't in Buffalo. Ok then pony up about 85.00 per seat per game minimum, and start paying 100K for luxury suites instead of 25k. Bottom line, you cant have it both ways.

Your top half is right on but the team needs to be moved to a more viable location in Buffalo, preferably downtown. This will revive that area from within and eventually reach out to all the corners of the area.

[YardRat]

It was a 'media phenom' long before the current ownership, ICE. Where were they when the TV contracts were breaking new ground? Where were they when Monday Night Football revolutionized prime-time sports viewing?

The Super Bowl was a, if not THE, most-watched sporting event on an annual basis long before Jones and Co. came on the scene.

[ICE74129]

Your top half is right on but the team needs to be moved to a more viable location in Buffalo, preferably downtown. This will revive that area from within and eventually reach out to all the corners of the area.

So move the team FURTHER from the money? Downtown buffalo is NOT where they need to be. Move them further east or so toward more money and out of the overtaxed buffalo

[ICE74129]

It was a 'media phenom' long before the current ownership, ICE. Where were they when the TV contracts were breaking new ground? Where were they when Monday Night Football revolutionized prime-time sports viewing?

The Super Bowl was a, if not THE, most-watched sporting event on an annual basis long before Jones and Co. came on the scene.

and those guys picked up the ball and took it further. Sorry I don't have an issue with those guys for taking it further. I have an issue with how the revenue sharing is.

But I also have aHUGE issue with wilson and his old school ways. It doesn't work these days. Cities and fans are going to have to pay out the butt to have a team and nothing is going to change that. So either they can or the team moves to a more viable city, thats just how it is

[Mitchy moo]

and those guys picked up the ball and took it further. Sorry I don't have an issue with those guys for taking it further. I have an issue with how the revenue sharing is.

But I also have aHUGE issue with wilson and his old school ways. It doesn't work these days. Cities and fans are going to have to pay out the butt to have a team and nothing is going to change that. So either they can or the team moves to a more viable city, thats just how it is

Would Tulsa OK be a good viable city for the Bills??

[HHURRICANE]

first off scoob it was cinci's owner, not clevelands.

What the real problem is, is the BUFFALO aka Western NY Economy can't support the bills.

Read the article I posted. Buffalo needs to charge 80.00 per ticket per game for the cheapest seats to get up to speed. That isn't going to happen in WNY and the other owners know it. Hell the NFL knows it.

Its my opinion that they really dont give a damn about history or old school, its just about the money

I disagree that the economy can't support the team. Buffalo should be charging $80 a ticket for the cheapest seats. Geez, an Atlanta Thrasher ticket costs $80 a game. Bufalo needs to grow up and start start acting like a real city. They keep waiting for someone to help them when it needs to start with the people that live there. How long as Bethlelhem been closed for? Pittsburgh, Cinncinati and Cleveland figured it out.

[Goobylal]

I agree that all the Krafts, Jones, and Snyders are doing is pushing the regular fan out, to the point that they would rather watch the game on TV. And realistically, that's what they WANT, since they want tons of local revenue from the rich people who can afford to go to the stadium, while they rake in billions from the television networks.

And let's be real. Snyder, Kraft, and Jones did NOTHING besides jack-up prices and find ways to charge people for things that were previously free (admission to training camp, season tix which now require PSL's, etc.). The big money is from the TV contracts. The reason why the TV money has gotten so crazy is because Fox swooped-in and took the NFC package from CBS, leaving them out in the cold initially. Then everyone started outbidding everyone else. It doesn't take a genius to realize that scarcity brings demand.

And Buffalo CANNOT support $80 ticket prices. Heck the excuse for the non-sellouts this year was that the Sabres were doing well. All you'll end up doing is pricing-out the average fan in Buffalo.

[X-Era]

I agree that all the Krafts, Jones, and Snyders are doing is pushing the regular fan out, to the point that they would rather watch the game on TV. And realistically, that's what they WANT, since they want tons of local revenue from the rich people who can afford to go to the stadium, while they rake in billions from the television networks.

And let's be real. Snyder, Kraft, and Jones did NOTHING besides jack-up prices and find ways to charge people for things that were previously free (admission to training camp, season tix which now require PSL's, etc.). The big money is from the TV contracts. The reason why the TV money has gotten so crazy is because Fox swooped-in and took the NFC package from CBS, leaving them out in the cold initially. Then everyone started outbidding everyone else. It doesn't take a genius to realize that scarcity brings demand.

And Buffalo CANNOT support $80 ticket prices. Heck the excuse for the non-sellouts this year was that the Sabres were doing well. All you'll end up doing is pricing-out the average fan in Buffalo.

Nobodys paying 80.00 a ticket. But can we pay 55 or 60? yeah I think we can. Buffalo doesnt set the market, the market sets the market and we are WAY under charging for tickets.

No one wants to pay more but would you rather lose the franchise over 10 or even 20 a ticket? Ill pay it thanks.

[Goobylal]

Nobodys paying 80.00 a ticket. But can we pay 55 or 60? yeah I think we can. Buffalo doesnt set the market, the market sets the market and we are WAY under charging for tickets.

No one wants to pay more but would you rather lose the franchise over 10 or even 20 a ticket? Ill pay it thanks.
The ticket prices aren't what will keep the Bills in Buffalo since ticket revenue is mostly shared revenue. Where Ralph falls WELL short is luxury boxes, parking, concessions, naming rights (Ralph can't expect more than $2M a year), i.e. stuff that comes with a new stadium.

[dolphan117]

As much as some may hate it the Jones Crafts etc are here to stay and the reason is simply that they are making tons of money while reportedly the "old breed" owner aren't. I mean lets be realistic here, one of the big hangups on the last CBA was that the small market teams wanted a piece of the revenue that the big market teams were generating. One other thing to remember here is that some of the new owners like the guy that owners the Texans had to pony up HUGE amounts of money to buy the team... Some of which was borrowed and takes millions per year just to make the interest payments. These guys have to make money, lots of it, just to stay afloat. These old breed owners don't have to make those payments. They bought their teams long ago for a fraction of their current value, the NFL hasn't put any of them in the poor house.

I am all for small market teams and keeping the tradition of the game as well as its history. I also think it would be awful if the Bills were forced to move.... Games between My Fins and the Bills played in December........ In LA just wouldn't be the same. I hate it on general principle any time a franchise is forced to move simply because it takes a franchise away from a loyal fan-base that has invested its time money and attention in the team. Fans just don't deserve that.

But the league isn't going to go backwards. Its going to go after the big money and that's just the cold hard truth. If I were a bills fan I would be rooting for Ralph to sell the team to smart young guy that is committed to keeping the team in the area who has the money and political connections to see a new stadium built as the center of a complex that includes a hotel, restaurants, etc.

I'm not trying to bash Ralph but the reality is that if what he is saying about not making money is true than the only viable solution I see is for him to either sell the team and have it moved or sell the team to someone who can do a better job of marketing the team and keeping it where it is. If Ralph knew how to make money with things the way they are than he would have. He either doesn't know how, or is unwilling to make the choices that would lead to more cash but whichever you think it is it still leaves the bills siting right where they are.

Personally I think it a combination of the 2, I think if Ralph knew how to do a better job of marketing the team and using it as a centerpiece to create a moneymaking "Bills Brand" like Snyder and Jones have done with their franchises than he would. But there are also some pretty easy things like selling naming right to the stadium that he just refuses to do...... While Jones and Craft have both sold naming rights to their stadiums to the tune of around 10 million per year I believe. That's a pretty significant chunk of change.

Someone brought up Baseball earlier and said that what has killed the game is the difference between the have and the have nots and I agree. It hasn't been just that, the union VS owner lockouts, strikes or whatever you want to call them have been a huge part too but I agree. What makes the NFL great is the parity. You can be a fan of just about any team and hope over the off season that your team can turn it around and make the playoffs. The Saints are a great example of why that hope isn't unfounded and its a huge part of what makes this league great and keeps its fans interested in the game..........

So I believe in revenue sharing. I really do. But if you have the "New Breed" owners out there marketing their teams and finding ways to make TONS of money even when they have average teams (Like Snyder has done with the Skins and Casserly has done with the woeful Texans) and the "Old Breed" owners out there not making money...... But also not marketing their teams the way the young guys are than who is really at fault? You can look at the young guys and say they are destroying the game but at the same time the old breed owners have no problem taking their money with revenue sharing.

One of the things that really caught my attention during this last round of CBA talks where the big issue was the "New Breed Owner" VS. the "Old Breed" (as opposed to the owners Vs. the Players) was when the owner of the Bowns was complaining about the lack of money and Jerry Jones said something to the effect of "I tell you what, I'll buy the naming rights to your stadium for 5 million right now and inside (I forget the time frame, it was less than 24 hours) sell it again for 10 million.

These owners that are going out selling naming rights and finding ways to generate revenue are understandably a little pissed when old breed guys who aren't making similar efforts complain about the lack of cash and then demand that the big market teams keep them afloat with revenue sharing.

If this continues long enough the new breed is going to say "You know what? we earned this money. We sold the naming rights, we sold the local cable contracts and we earned this dough. If small market teams are struggling... Though luck. Maybe if they at least tried to do what we do than they wouldn't be stuck where they are. Part of the friction is simply that the big market guys don't think the small market guys are really doing everything they can to generate revenue.

That scenario was being bated by some at the last CBA. There was speculation that some of the big market guys would refuse a CBA with revenue sharing (which would have killed the CBA) because that would have led to an uncapped year following the one that just ended..... And once that happened there would be no way the players would agree to accept a cap ever again. Welcome to no cap, no revenue sharing football where the Jones rule and small market teams have virtually no chance at being competitive...... It would be awful, the MLB all over again and boy would it suck..... But not for the top dogs.

I sure hope we never get there but the bigger the gap becomes between the top revenue generators and the bottom the bigger the that chance becomes.... Which is why I hope some of the lower revenue generators like Ralph sell their teams to younger guys who can try and find ways to narrow that gap while keeping the franchises where they are. And just to be clear I am not trying to bash Ralph or anybody here, this stuff just interests me.

[Mitchy moo]

As much as some may hate it the Jones Crafts etc are here to stay and the reason is simply that they are making tons of money while reportedly the "old breed" owner aren't. I mean lets be realistic here, one of the big hangups on the last CBA was that the small market teams wanted a piece of the revenue that the big market teams were generating. One other thing to remember here is that some of the new owners like the guy that owners the Texans had to pony up HUGE amounts of money to buy the team... Some of which was borrowed and takes millions per year just to make the interest payments. These guys have to make money, lots of it, just to stay afloat. These old breed owners don't have to make those payments. They bought their teams long ago for a fraction of their current value, the NFL hasn't put any of them in the poor house.

I am all for small market teams and keeping the tradition of the game as well as its history. I also think it would be awful if the Bills were forced to move.... Games between My Fins and the Bills played in December........ In LA just wouldn't be the same. I hate it on general principle any time a franchise is forced to move simply because it takes a franchise away from a loyal fan-base that has invested its time money and attention in the team. Fans just don't deserve that.

But the league isn't going to go backwards. Its going to go after the big money and that's just the cold hard truth. If I were a bills fan I would be rooting for Ralph to sell the team to smart young guy that is committed to keeping the team in the area who has the money and political connections to see a new stadium built as the center of a complex that includes a hotel, restaurants, etc.

I'm not trying to bash Ralph but the reality is that if what he is saying about not making money is true than the only viable solution I see is for him to either sell the team and have it moved or sell the team to someone who can do a better job of marketing the team and keeping it where it is. If Ralph knew how to make money with things the way they are than he would have. He either doesn't know how, or is unwilling to make the choices that would lead to more cash but whichever you think it is it still leaves the bills siting right where they are.

Personally I think it a combination of the 2, I think if Ralph knew how to do a better job of marketing the team and using it as a centerpiece to create a moneymaking "Bills Brand" like Snyder and Jones have done with their franchises than he would. But there are also some pretty easy things like selling naming right to the stadium that he just refuses to do...... While Jones and Craft have both sold naming rights to their stadiums to the tune of around 10 million per year I believe. That's a pretty significant chunk of change.

Someone brought up Baseball earlier and said that what has killed the game is the difference between the have and the have nots and I agree. It hasn't been just that, the union VS owner lockouts, strikes or whatever you want to call them have been a huge part too but I agree. What makes the NFL great is the parity. You can be a fan of just about any team and hope over the off season that your team can turn it around and make the playoffs. The Saints are a great example of why that hope isn't unfounded and its a huge part of what makes this league great and keeps its fans interested in the game..........

So I believe in revenue sharing. I really do. But if you have the "New Breed" owners out there marketing their teams and finding ways to make TONS of money even when they have average teams (Like Snyder has done with the Skins and Casserly has done with the woeful Texans) and the "Old Breed" owners out there not making money...... But also not marketing their teams the way the young guys are than who is really at fault? You can look at the young guys and say they are destroying the game but at the same time the old breed owners have no problem taking their money with revenue sharing.

One of the things that really caught my attention during this last round of CBA talks where the big issue was the "New Breed Owner" VS. the "Old Breed" (as opposed to the owners Vs. the Players) was when the owner of the Bowns was complaining about the lack of money and Jerry Jones said something to the effect of "I tell you what, I'll buy the naming rights to your stadium for 5 million right now and inside (I forget the time frame, it was less than 24 hours) sell it again for 10 million.

These owners that are going out selling naming rights and finding ways to generate revenue are understandably a little pissed when old breed guys who aren't making similar efforts complain about the lack of cash and then demand that the big market teams keep them afloat with revenue sharing.

If this continues long enough the new breed is going to say "You know what? we earned this money. We sold the naming rights, we sold the local cable contracts and we earned this dough. If small market teams are struggling... Though luck. Maybe if they at least tried to do what we do than they wouldn't be stuck where they are. Part of the friction is simply that the big market guys don't think the small market guys are really doing everything they can to generate revenue.

That scenario was being bated by some at the last CBA. There was speculation that some of the big market guys would refuse a CBA with revenue sharing (which would have killed the CBA) because that would have led to an uncapped year following the one that just ended..... And once that happened there would be no way the players would agree to accept a cap ever again. Welcome to no cap, no revenue sharing football where the Jones rule and small market teams have virtually no chance at being competitive...... It would be awful, the MLB all over again and boy would it suck..... But not for the top dogs.

I sure hope we never get there but the bigger the gap becomes between the top revenue generators and the bottom the bigger the that chance becomes.... Which is why I hope some of the lower revenue generators like Ralph sell their teams to younger guys who can try and find ways to narrow that gap while keeping the franchises where they are. And just to be clear I am not trying to bash Ralph or anybody here, this stuff just interests me.


Your a dolphin fan and wrote this intelligent post?? You must of been kidnapped by aliens and they forgot to erase the fins as your favorite team. J/K, great post man.

RW owes $0 for his team and it's worth $750 M or more. I brought up that point before, he has literally no real debt to speak of compared to the new owners who need to be creative. Then RW complains about all the money the other teams make and he has no carry costs like those guys. RW can sell the naming rights to his stadium, toyota has a little money to buy it and lord knows they have enough invested in naming rights there already.

It's time to move on old man, please put the team with a guy that can really run it well. The best case scenario would be for him to sell a partial interest in the team to Tom G. and let him go ape sheet. That way he doesn't take that massive tax hit and his family can eat chop steak for at least a few years. Lord knows how they are going to be able to live on $750 Million for the rest of their lives. :candle:

[YardRat]

That scenario was being bated by some at the last CBA. There was speculation that some of the big market guys would refuse a CBA with revenue sharing (which would have killed the CBA) because that would have led to an uncapped year following the one that just ended..... And once that happened there would be no way the players would agree to accept a cap ever again.

2007 was an un-capped year under the old agreement, as far as I know.

[Bill Brasky]

This stuff is so trivial.

The way the NFL is going, nobody will be able to afford tix in 10 years. I'm gonna enjoy my tix, I could care less what happens in the next decade. Live in the now, and right now, we have the Bills :up:

[Historian]

You're way off the mark on this one Skoob.

[OpIv37]

The Sabres will have sold twice as many tickets this season as the Bills did this past year by season end. The idea of getting people to want to be there is having a successful franchise that people want to be part of. When you go to watch a Sabres game, it's just loaded with nice things and marketed properly. When you go to the Ralph now or from 10 years ago it looks the same. The new scoreboard sounds great but I came to watch a football game not a scoreboard.

We have millions of people within a 90 mile radius and the only real NY state based NFL franchise. If marketed properly the stadium would have a waiting list. Think Green Bay is any bigger than Buffalo?? Try to get a season seat there, (30 + year wait). Tell me what the big draw is to Green Bay, their industry there? That's what I thought.

this post is insane. While the multimedia features at places such as the Ravens's stadium do add to the experience, is there anyone who goes to the game just because of that? "Well, I'm not a huge football fan so I wasn't going to spend $75 for a nosebleed seat to see the Ravens, but since they have fireworks and a kick-ass sound system, I'm gonna go". Or the reverse: "I'm a HUGE Bills fan and I love the team, but the Ralph has an outdated sound system and they don't use the jumbotron very well. So **** it- I'll stay home". Please.

Anyway, gate receipts are only a small portion of the revenue- even if we had sold out every game, it wouldn't have put that much more money in Ralph's pocket.

[OpIv37]

As much as some may hate it the Jones Crafts etc are here to stay and the reason is simply that they are making tons of money while reportedly the "old breed" owner aren't. I mean lets be realistic here, one of the big hangups on the last CBA was that the small market teams wanted a piece of the revenue that the big market teams were generating. One other thing to remember here is that some of the new owners like the guy that owners the Texans had to pony up HUGE amounts of money to buy the team... Some of which was borrowed and takes millions per year just to make the interest payments. These guys have to make money, lots of it, just to stay afloat. These old breed owners don't have to make those payments. They bought their teams long ago for a fraction of their current value, the NFL hasn't put any of them in the poor house.

I am all for small market teams and keeping the tradition of the game as well as its history. I also think it would be awful if the Bills were forced to move.... Games between My Fins and the Bills played in December........ In LA just wouldn't be the same. I hate it on general principle any time a franchise is forced to move simply because it takes a franchise away from a loyal fan-base that has invested its time money and attention in the team. Fans just don't deserve that.

But the league isn't going to go backwards. Its going to go after the big money and that's just the cold hard truth. If I were a bills fan I would be rooting for Ralph to sell the team to smart young guy that is committed to keeping the team in the area who has the money and political connections to see a new stadium built as the center of a complex that includes a hotel, restaurants, etc.

I'm not trying to bash Ralph but the reality is that if what he is saying about not making money is true than the only viable solution I see is for him to either sell the team and have it moved or sell the team to someone who can do a better job of marketing the team and keeping it where it is. If Ralph knew how to make money with things the way they are than he would have. He either doesn't know how, or is unwilling to make the choices that would lead to more cash but whichever you think it is it still leaves the bills siting right where they are.

Personally I think it a combination of the 2, I think if Ralph knew how to do a better job of marketing the team and using it as a centerpiece to create a moneymaking "Bills Brand" like Snyder and Jones have done with their franchises than he would. But there are also some pretty easy things like selling naming right to the stadium that he just refuses to do...... While Jones and Craft have both sold naming rights to their stadiums to the tune of around 10 million per year I believe. That's a pretty significant chunk of change.

Someone brought up Baseball earlier and said that what has killed the game is the difference between the have and the have nots and I agree. It hasn't been just that, the union VS owner lockouts, strikes or whatever you want to call them have been a huge part too but I agree. What makes the NFL great is the parity. You can be a fan of just about any team and hope over the off season that your team can turn it around and make the playoffs. The Saints are a great example of why that hope isn't unfounded and its a huge part of what makes this league great and keeps its fans interested in the game..........

So I believe in revenue sharing. I really do. But if you have the "New Breed" owners out there marketing their teams and finding ways to make TONS of money even when they have average teams (Like Snyder has done with the Skins and Casserly has done with the woeful Texans) and the "Old Breed" owners out there not making money...... But also not marketing their teams the way the young guys are than who is really at fault? You can look at the young guys and say they are destroying the game but at the same time the old breed owners have no problem taking their money with revenue sharing.

One of the things that really caught my attention during this last round of CBA talks where the big issue was the "New Breed Owner" VS. the "Old Breed" (as opposed to the owners Vs. the Players) was when the owner of the Bowns was complaining about the lack of money and Jerry Jones said something to the effect of "I tell you what, I'll buy the naming rights to your stadium for 5 million right now and inside (I forget the time frame, it was less than 24 hours) sell it again for 10 million.

These owners that are going out selling naming rights and finding ways to generate revenue are understandably a little pissed when old breed guys who aren't making similar efforts complain about the lack of cash and then demand that the big market teams keep them afloat with revenue sharing.

If this continues long enough the new breed is going to say "You know what? we earned this money. We sold the naming rights, we sold the local cable contracts and we earned this dough. If small market teams are struggling... Though luck. Maybe if they at least tried to do what we do than they wouldn't be stuck where they are. Part of the friction is simply that the big market guys don't think the small market guys are really doing everything they can to generate revenue.

That scenario was being bated by some at the last CBA. There was speculation that some of the big market guys would refuse a CBA with revenue sharing (which would have killed the CBA) because that would have led to an uncapped year following the one that just ended..... And once that happened there would be no way the players would agree to accept a cap ever again. Welcome to no cap, no revenue sharing football where the Jones rule and small market teams have virtually no chance at being competitive...... It would be awful, the MLB all over again and boy would it suck..... But not for the top dogs.

I sure hope we never get there but the bigger the gap becomes between the top revenue generators and the bottom the bigger the that chance becomes.... Which is why I hope some of the lower revenue generators like Ralph sell their teams to younger guys who can try and find ways to narrow that gap while keeping the franchises where they are. And just to be clear I am not trying to bash Ralph or anybody here, this stuff just interests me.



there is some good stuff in there, but I think there is a big piece that you missed. Western New York is struggling economically. While I agree there are probably ways to make the Bills more profitable that Ralph isn't exploiting (stadium naming rights, for one), the area just doesn't have a lot of expendable cash and the team will NEVER be as profitable as the Cowboys or Patriots or Redskins.

However, the advantage to the NFL for teams like Buffalo is loyalty. It may not be the most profitable market in the NFL, but it's consistent. The fans are ALWAYS there, unlike places like LA- where the fans are fickle and turn their backs on an NFL team at the first sign of struggles. Granted, the Bills' attendance slacked a little this year, but it took 6 years of struggling and competition from a red-hot Sabres team to make that happen.

If someone like Golisano were to buy the team from Ralph, the new owner would have huge debt (like the Texans' owner) and would be forced to exploit new revenue streams to stay in business. In the short run it wouldn't be much better than the current situation, but in the long run it would.

A BIG key is keeping the NFL out of Toronto. The Bills could absolutely exploit that market better, but if a team ever goes there, the Bills are as good as gone.

[Michael82]

Ralph Wilson and his contemporaries made the league a household name before douchebags like Jones, Kraft, and Snyder were wet behind the ears.

They're the ones that OWE the old-schoolers, not the other way around.
Exactly! Great post! :bf1:

[Michael82]

This stuff is so trivial.

The way the NFL is going, nobody will be able to afford tix in 10 years. I'm gonna enjoy my tix, I could care less what happens in the next decade. Live in the now, and right now, we have the Bills :up:

The way the NFL is going, the league will be dead in 20 years. :ill:

[Bill Brasky]

The way the NFL is going, the league will be dead in 20 years. :ill:

Well, like they say...

good things never last...

[Michael82]

Well, like they say...

good things never last...
Good point. :(

[gil]

first off scoob it was cinci's owner, not clevelands.

What the real problem is, is the BUFFALO aka Western NY Economy can't support the bills.

Read the article I posted. Buffalo needs to charge 80.00 per ticket per game for the cheapest seats to get up to speed. That isn't going to happen in WNY and the other owners know it. Hell the NFL knows it.
I'm sorry, Buffalo can support a team:



Buffalo is the second largest Designated Market Area (DMA) in New York State, 49th largest in total population in the United States.
This ten county DMA has a population of 1.6 million in 646,800 households.
The Buffalo DMA has over $26 billion in Effective Buying Income and $17.5 billion in retail sales in 2004..
The average household Effective Buying Income is $40,149 in the Buffalo DMA.

[raphael120]

I'm sorry, Buffalo can support a team:

Then why is Buffalo such a run down area? If everyone has all this money, why is that?

Why can't Buffalo clean up it's massive expanse of lake front property? If everyone is so big in the money, then that should be easy, right?

Buffalo is 2nd to NYC not because Buffalo is a massive city, but because it's home to a major gateway to Canada and has the Falls and other attractions that make it more appealing to than other parts of NY. Population is decreasing, more people are moving out than going in, the area is just not attractive to corporations, and it's not the peoples fault entirely, it's the politicians. But then again it's the people who vote on that and it's the people who can speak up. It's all politics and it sucks. You think the NFL is about football anymore? Sorry, it's about money. The world revolves around money... If it wasn't about money then why is the SuperBowl such a whorefest for advertising and nothing about the players or the tradition?

[gil]

Then why is Buffalo such a run down area? If everyone has all this money, why is that?

Why can't Buffalo clean up it's massive expanse of lake front property? If everyone is so big in the money, then that should be easy, right?

Buffalo is 2nd to NYC not because Buffalo is a massive city, but because it's home to a major gateway to Canada and has the Falls and other attractions that make it more appealing to than other parts of NY. Population is decreasing, more people are moving out than going in, the area is just not attractive to corporations, and it's not the peoples fault entirely, it's the politicians. But then again it's the people who vote on that and it's the people who can speak up. It's all politics and it sucks. You think the NFL is about football anymore? Sorry, it's about money. The world revolves around money... If it wasn't about money then why is the SuperBowl such a whorefest for advertising and nothing about the players or the tradition?

I could ask you the same thing for large portions of the city you live in - whole sections of DC are wastelands, yet obviously, in the surrounding area there is plenty to support a franchise.

Buffalo is by no means on that level, but what I was trying to illustrate was not that Buffalo people are swimming in money, but there is a large enough population and economic base to support an NFL franchise - not to the level of some markets, but if everything is to be measured by the large markets, then the league should just start contracting right now.