Kelsay's interview reveals some issues!

[HHURRICANE]

Kelsay was on Sirrius yesterday and this is what was said:

1) For you McCargo fans it sounds like he is still rehabbing his foot. Kelsay mentioned that he hopes he's in for camp.

2) Said Larry Tripplett struggled last year because he was used to a pass rushing D in Indy. Said he played better later on but obviously Kelsay had the balls to bring it up.

3) Didn't seem too confident that the Drawin Walker issue was going to get resolved quickly.

4) Never said the D was going to be better. Gave the "it's a business excuse" for Fletcher and Spikes and seemed concerned about losing them.

5) Sounded less concerned about Clements leaving and mentioned Yobouty as a talented player.

6) He was given a softball about POZ and he never went anywhere with it. Maybe Patrick Willis would have evoked a different reaction.


To be quite frank Kelsay interviews about the way he plays. Glad to be there. I was hoping for something a lot more positive especially because he was asked point blank about the losses on D and he didn't give any super encouraging responses.

[gr8slayer]

Kelsay was on Sirrius yesterday and this is what was said:

1) For you McCargo fans it sounds like he is still rehabbing his foot. Kelsay mentioned that he hopes he's in for camp.

2) Said Larry Tripplett struggled last year because he was used to a pass rushing D in Indy. Said he played better later on but obviously Kelsay had the balls to bring it up.

3) Didn't seem too confident that the Drawin Walker issue was going to get resolved quickly.

4) Never said the D was going to be better. Gave the "it's a business excuse" for Fletcher and Spikes and seemed concerned about losing them.

5) Sounded less concerned about Clements leaving and mentioned Yobouty as a talented player.

6) He was given a softball about POZ and he never went anywhere with it. Maybe Patrick Willis would have evoked a different reaction.


To be quite frank Kelsay interviews about the way he plays. Glad to be there. I was hoping for something a lot more positive especially because he was asked point blank about the losses on D and he didn't give any super encouraging responses.
I think McCargo will be fine. I read an article that said he was 100% Odd to hear this now.

Tripplett was also double teamed a lot last year.

Who cares about Darwin Walker. Let him sit out for two years and not get paid.

Spikes won't be missed (post injury), Fletcher is already missed.

Clements leaving is a non-issue, especially at $80 million.

Completely healthy Posluszny > Willis

[patmoran2006]

DOesnt sound too positive for a borderline starter who just got $24 million dollars.

I cant stand this guy. Totally one-dimensional and a primary reason why our run defense is a joke.

[gr8slayer]

DOesnt sound too positive for a borderline starter who just got $24 million dollars.

I cant stand this guy. Totally one-dimensional and a primary reason why our run defense is a joke.
Sounds like Schobel.

[Jan Reimers]

[QUOTE=HHURRICANE

1) For you McCargo fans it sounds like he is still rehabbing his foot. Kelsay mentioned that he hopes he's in for camp.
[/QUOTE]
I think most of us are not simply "McCargo fans" per se (or JP fans or Youboty fans, etc., etc.), but Bills' fans. That is, we hope - and expect - our players, and particularly our high draft picks, to perform well, so that the TEAM improves.

I haven't seen enough of a guy like McCargo to have a real strong opinion either way. But we drafted him in the first round, so I have every expectation that he will make a big contribution to our D this year. That is simply in contrast to those who already "know" that he'll suck.

[justasportsfan]

Totally one-dimensional and a primary reason why our run defense is a joke.

and Pat claims to know football? haha!

[Night Train]

You could read world famine and a pending stock market crash into what he said, in addition to the other speculation.

In other words, he said basically nothing.

[OpIv37]

I think most of us are not simply "McCargo fans" per se (or JP fans or Youboty fans, etc., etc.), but Bills' fans. That is, we hope - and expect - our players, and particularly our high draft picks, to perform well, so that the TEAM improves.

I haven't seen enough of a guy like McCargo to have a real strong opinion either way. But we drafted him in the first round, so I have every expectation that he will make a big contribution to our D this year. That is simply in contrast to those who already "know" that he'll suck.

Why do you have that unreasonable expectation when a) McCargo has been injured the last two seasons, b) McCargo didn't show much when he did play last year, and c) it takes time to adjust to the NFL, which McCargo didn't get because of his injury and d) he was only drafted in they first round because Marv thought he wouldn't be there at our pick in the 2nd?

I hope McCargo makes a contribution, but it's a lot more likely that he's going to struggle, at least for a while until he makes the adjustment.

[feelthepain]

I think most of us are not simply "McCargo fans" per se (or JP fans or Youboty fans, etc., etc.), but Bills' fans. That is, we hope - and expect - our players, and particularly our high draft picks, to perform well, so that the TEAM improves.

I haven't seen enough of a guy like McCargo to have a real strong opinion either way. But we drafted him in the first round, so I have every expectation that he will make a big contribution to our D this year. That is simply in contrast to those who already "know" that he'll suck.

Well according to some Bill fans, what you saw from him last year is exactly what you can expect from him this year, so get the hope out of your head cause all that matters is what happend last year....or is that just something that only applies to other players on other teams, but doesn't apply to the Bill players?? I'm still trying to figure out the rules and theories that Bill fans put on other teams, but not their own.

[justasportsfan]

I haven't seen enough of a guy like McCargo to have a real strong opinion either way. But we drafted him in the first round, so I have every expectation that he will make a big contribution to our D this year. That is simply in contrast to those who already "know" that he'll suck.

Haha! I agree with OP. You have UNREASONABLE expectations. :coocoo:

[OpIv37]

Haha! I agree with OP. You have UNREASONABLE expectations. :coocoo:

It is unreasonable. Is it impossible for McCargo to contribute? No, of course not. But if you look at the factors I listed, how can you reasonably expect the guy to come in and contribute? It doesn't make any sense.

[TedMock]

It is unreasonable. Is it impossible for McCargo to contribute? No, of course not. But if you look at the factors I listed, how can you reasonably expect the guy to come in and contribute? It doesn't make any sense.

The only issue I really have is with anybody saying that McCargo didn't play well last year. You can't just look at a stat sheet when it comes to a DT. The proof is in the pudding as they say. McCargo struggled in his first game. It was obvious. It was also obvious that he held his point of attack and did a very good job in the next few games before he got injured. How can anybody not see that? I just don't understand seeing that it's soooo painfully obvious that McCargo not only played fairly well, but that the run defense got significantly worse after his injury. It's so plain to see if you watched the games. That's why I don't get this entire piece of the argument.

[justasportsfan]

It is unreasonable. Is it impossible for McCargo to contribute? No, of course not. But if you look at the factors I listed, how can you reasonably expect the guy to come in and contribute? It doesn't make any sense.
In your world it's unreasonable. Wait let me think of it .... you're right. There haven't been any rookies in the past that have come in and made big contributions to their teams. /sarcasm .

If you tell me it's "unlikely" hell contribute then fine. Unreasonable? Puhlease.

[OpIv37]

In your world it's unreasonable. Wait let me think of it .... you're right. There haven't been any rookies in the past that have come in and made big contributions to their teams. /sarcasm .

If you tell me it's "unlikely" hell contribute then fine. Unreasonable? Puhlease.

you're splitting hairs now.

If something is unlikely, it's unreasonable to expect it to happen. That's called common sense.

[OpIv37]

The only issue I really have is with anybody saying that McCargo didn't play well last year. You can't just look at a stat sheet when it comes to a DT. The proof is in the pudding as they say. McCargo struggled in his first game. It was obvious. It was also obvious that he held his point of attack and did a very good job in the next few games before he got injured. How can anybody not see that? I just don't understand seeing that it's soooo painfully obvious that McCargo not only played fairly well, but that the run defense got significantly worse after his injury. It's so plain to see if you watched the games. That's why I don't get this entire piece of the argument.

In those other games we didn't exactly play stellar rushing teams, and while McCargo wasn't bad, he wasn't great either. Granted he was young and will probably improve, but he sure as hell didn't improve sitting around nursing an injury. Combine that with the "rotational" system where he's not even on the field every play, and people seem to be expecting a big impact from him when it's a lot more likely that his impact will be minimal (at least initially until he gets back on track- after that, who knows?).

[TedMock]

In those other games we didn't exactly play stellar rushing teams, and while McCargo wasn't bad, he wasn't great either. Granted he was young and will probably improve, but he sure as hell didn't improve sitting around nursing an injury. Combine that with the "rotational" system where he's not even on the field every play, and people seem to be expecting a big impact from him when it's a lot more likely that his impact will be minimal (at least initially until he gets back on track- after that, who knows?).

He wasn't great, but he was solid. I agree with you that he won't make a major impact immediately. I do think that he looked like he belonged in there and that he'll be a solid starter for us. It'll take him a few games to get to that point - especially post-injury. No doubt about it. I just don't see it taking half the season. My guess is that by the end of the first month, he's a solid, starting, NFL D-tackle.

[justasportsfan]

you're splitting hairs now.

If something is unlikely, it's unreasonable to expect it to happen. That's called common sense.

haha! you talking about common sense? Funny!

If rookies in the past have come in and made major contributions for their team how is it unreasonable to think it can happen to the bills? It's not very often that that therefore it's unlikely to happen but not unreasonable.

MCargo is no longer a rookie, why is it unreasonable to think he can't?

Comprende? Check out the definitions of the worde unreasonable and unlikely.

Anything good that happens to other teams CANNOT happen to bills ..... OP's Law



OP's LAw makes Murphy's LAw a positive one.

[OpIv37]

haha! you talking about common sense? Funny!

If rookies in the past have come in and made major contributions for their team how is it unreasonable to think it can happen to the bills? It's not very often that that therefore it's unlikely to happen but not unreasonable.

MCargo is no longer a rookie, why is it unreasonable to think he can't?

Comprende? Check out the definitions of the worde unreasonable and unlikely.

Anything good that happens to other teams CANNOT happen to bills ..... OP's Law



OP's LAw makes Murphy's LAw a positive one.

Rookies in some positions come in and make an impact. But rookies often come in and struggle for a while while they learn the speed of the game. So at the very least, it's 50/50 on having high expectations on rookies.

McCargo missed most of his rookie season and plays a position that usually takes a few season to develop. So it is unreasonable to come in and think he'll be anything better than he was before he got injured last year.

A lot of people here have the opposite law: "if something good happened to some other player at some other time in the history of football regardless of the specifics of the situation, it CAN and WILL happen to the Bills". That's unreasonable.

If something is unlikely, that means there is a greater chance that it won't happen than that it will happen. That's the definition. How can a reasonable person expect something that is unlikely, rather than the opposite which is more likely? I don't need definitions- you need lessons in logic.

[OpIv37]

He wasn't great, but he was solid. I agree with you that he won't make a major impact immediately. I do think that he looked like he belonged in there and that he'll be a solid starter for us. It'll take him a few games to get to that point - especially post-injury. No doubt about it. I just don't see it taking half the season. My guess is that by the end of the first month, he's a solid, starting, NFL D-tackle.

You could be right, but IMO even that's a problem because if he takes a month and Youboty takes a month (he'll probably take longer) and Poz takes a month, we could be 1-3 or 0-4 in the meantime.

[justasportsfan]

Rookies in some positions come in and make an impact. But rookies often come in and struggle for a while while they learn the speed of the game. So at the very least, it's 50/50 on having high expectations on rookies.

McCargo missed most of his rookie season and plays a position that usually takes a few season to develop. So it is unreasonable to come in and think he'll be anything better than he was before he got injured last year.

If something is unlikely, that means there is a greater chance that it won't happen than that it will happen. That's the definition. How can a reasonable person expect something that is unlikely, rather than the opposite which is more likely? I don't need definitions- you need lessons in logic.

Haha! Unreasonable is the same thing as unlikey? :snicker: If you have even 1 reason, it's no longer unreasonable. Do I have 1 reason to think MCCArgo can make an impact? Yes, it's happened before. That's 1 reason. I can come up with a few more.





A lot of people here have the opposite law: "if something good happened to some other player at some other time in the history of football regardless of the specifics of the situation, it CAN and WILL happen to the Bills". That's unreasonable..

A lot? List them.

[Bling]

I like people that tell it like it is. They don't lie to themselves. Even if Kelsay is completely wrong, at least he was original from the usual propoganda machine. Big ups to Kelsay.

[OpIv37]

Haha! Unreasonable is the same thing as unlikey? :snicker: If you have even 1 reason, it's no longer unreasonable. Do I have 1 reason to think MCCArgo can make an impact? Yes, it's happened before. That's 1 reason. I can come up with a few more.





A lot? List them.

now you are twisting my words. I never said "unreasonable" and "unlikely" are the same thing- I said a reasonable person can't expect something that is unlikely when the opposite is more likely. If you look up the definition of "reasonable", you'd understand why that is true.

1 reason does NOT make something unreasonable because there could be 1 reason for and 1000 reasons against. In your McCargo example, the reason you give has no specific applicability to the situation- all you did was prove that it's not impossible. That's a pretty piss-poor reason. It's not impossible for me to win the lottery, but it would be unreasonable for me to expect to win it and start spending before the winning numbers are drawn.

You want me to list people? For starters, you and Skooby. You both use this "it happened before" logic for every situation without stopping to think about the specifics of the Bills situation versus the situation where it happened before.

[justasportsfan]

You want me to list people? For starters, you and Skooby. You both use this "it happened before" logic for every situation without stopping to think about the specifics of the Bills situation versus the situation where it happened before.


it CAN and WILL happen to the Bills"..

What I'm looking for is IT CAN AND WILL happen. I dare you to show me where I've said that.

Even if what in your head is true that I think IT CAN AND WILL happen to the bills, skooby and I are not a lot.

Don't tell me you've turned into Pat Moran. He can't come up with anything everytime I asked him to prove I'm a homer.

[OpIv37]

What I'm looking for is IT CAN AND WILL happen. I dare you to show me where I've said that.

Even if what in your head is true that I think IT CAN AND WILL happen to the bills, skooby and I are not a lot.

Don't tell me you've turned into Pat Moran. He can't come up with anything everytime I asked him to prove I'm a homer.

you're a homer because you defend EVERY move Marv makes and you defend EVERY player on the team No matter how bad something seems, you take the "wait and see" approach rather than be on record as taking a stance. You rarely if ever say anything critical about the team, despite the lack of performance out of this team recently.

And you JUST did the "can and will" thing- you said you expect McCargo to contribute because it happened before.

[justasportsfan]

you're a homer because you defend EVERY move Marv makes and you defend EVERY player on the team No matter how bad something seems, you take the "wait and see" approach rather than be on record as taking a stance. You rarely if ever say anything critical about the team, despite the lack of performance out of this team recently.

And you JUST did the "can and will" thing- you said you expect McCargo to contribute because it happened before.


Haha! Nuff said. I'm a homer because I'm a half full type a guy. I guess to a negative crybaby , a half full kind of guy is a homer.


I don';t take a stance and yet we have 2 bets... you suck at reading into things. This alone is proof. You only see what you want to see and most of the time it's Doom and gloom which is why I can't stand you nancies. All you do is cry. Anti- competiitors. You guys are the Manny Wrights on message boards.

YOu turned down a cash bet from me last year because you were scared that your wife would kill you so don't go saying I don't take a stand. :coocoo: I also have a cash bet going with wys now.

Only an idiot judges Mav's first year. I've said Clements was MArv's mistake. How is that defending every move?

Only idiots take a stance too early. Look at Moran, he blast JP and now he's saying, "i WAS WRONG".

Who looked like an idiot crying about the OL only to find out MArv fixed it. You and Moran. Insttead of wait and see, you ended up looking like crybabies.


Where did I say MccArgo WILL? Lack of comprehension as usual.

[patmoran2006]

OP why do you bother with him.

[patmoran2006]

Going by this interview except.. It just baffles me that more and more the vets, past and present on this team. are less enthusiastic about the prospects of having a great team, then I can remember seeing.

[OpIv37]

Haha! Nuff said. I'm a homer because I'm a half full type a guy. I guess to a negative crybaby , a half full kind of guy is a homer.


I don';t take a stance and yet we have 2 bets... you suck at reading into things. This alone is proof. You only see what you want to see and most of the time it's Doom and gloom which is why I can't stand you nancies. All you do is cry. Anti- competiitors. You guys are the Manny Wrights on message boards.

YOu turned down a cash bet from me last year because you were scared that your wife would kill you so don't go saying I don't take a stand. :coocoo: I also have a cash bet going with wys now.

Only an idiot judges Mav's first year. I've said Clements was MArv's mistake. How is that defending every move?

Only idiots take a stance too early. Look at Moran, he blast JP and now he's saying, "i WAS WRONG".

Who looked like an idiot crying about the OL only to find out MArv fixed it. You and Moran. Insttead of wait and see, you ended up looking like crybabies.


Where did I say MccArgo WILL? Lack of comprehension as usual.

I turned down the cash bet cuz I didn't have any money at the time- all those other reasons I gave were just excuses because it's really none of your ****ing business.

You're a homer because you jump all over anyone who criticizes this team, even when the criticism is well deserved.

You're a homer because you say things like "only an idiot judges Marv's first year". Really? As fans who spend money on tickets and sports subscriptions and merch, I think we have every right to judge the product we're paying for.

And when did I "cry" about not fixing the OL? Marv signed Dockery on the first day of FA and I didn't even have Internet access that week, so when could I have possibly done that? I'm sure I complained about the OL because, well, it sucked last year and it deserved criticism. But I never said that Marv wasn't going to fix it or that he didn't fix it, so now you're just making **** up.

And Pat took a stance on JP and was wrong. So what? Sometimes people are wrong- at least he was man enough to admit it. It's better than sitting around saying "wait and see" all the time.

[OpIv37]

OP why do you bother with him.

combination of competitiveness and compulsion- it's very difficult for me to give up on an argument.

[patmoran2006]

For the record.

The OL is far from "fixed". LG is fixed.. RT and RG both have a lot to be desired before calling it fixed. Walker and Merz/Butler/Preston/Whittle is ANYTHING but a lock to be solid.

One side of the OL doesnt make for a "fix". You can say Marv "addressed" the OL and that would be accurate. To say he "fixed" the OL just because he signed Walker and Whittle is absurd.

Donahoe signed Bennie Anderson, Gandy and Villarrial, correct? That didn't "fix" the OL.. It addressed it.. big big difference.

[justasportsfan]

I turned down the cash bet cuz I didn't have any money at the time- all those other reasons I gave were just excuses because it's really none of your ****ing business.

You're a homer because you jump all over anyone who criticizes this team, even when the criticism is well deserved.

You're a homer because you say things like "only an idiot judges Marv's first year". Really? As fans who spend money on tickets and sports subscriptions and merch, I think we have every right to judge the product we're paying for.

And when did I "cry" about not fixing the OL? Marv signed Dockery on the first day of FA and I didn't even have Internet access that week, so when could I have possibly done that? I'm sure I complained about the OL because, well, it sucked last year and it deserved criticism. But I never said that Marv wasn't going to fix it or that he didn't fix it, so now you're just making **** up.

And Pat took a stance on JP and was wrong. So what? Sometimes people are wrong- at least he was man enough to admit it. It's better than sitting around saying "wait and see" all the time.


haha! see what I mean. That'll teach you to say I don't take a stand. Next time you say that about me just remember that I was willing to put cash where my mouth is.


I can see how crybabies would call me a homer even though I rank the bills 3rd in the AFCE at this point in time. A homer would rank the bills no. 1 in the AFCE.

I can also see how crybabies would call me a homer. I'm usually the one who's more vocal about your whines. Can't stand crybabies in my personal life even on the boards. Posters I usually go back and forth with were ICe , Wys , PAt and OP. All negative whiners. All you do is criticize and whine. even when someone says "i hope" you start pissing on it.



To a whiner, having a" jury still out on Marv" is being a homer. Oh well. I'm gald to be called an anti-whiner. I'm PROUD of it.

WTF are you talking about? PAt is the worst " wait and see guy". He'll have an opinion and then wait and see where it leads to and then change it.


Pat is not sometimes wrong. He's always wrong. Everytime he says something, he changes his mind. When you change your stance on something that means you were wrong .That's why I don't care about what he has to say because I know he'll swing the other way at some point and then say "I know football". Yeah right.

.Have a stance and stick to it. Don't go back and forth like John Kerry.

[Jan Reimers]

Op and Pat make me ashamed to even post anything positive here. They know with absolute certainty that the Bills will suck, while stupid, clueless me thinks that our young guys might actually improve and develop.

We didn't sign Cato June, Lance Briggs or whomever else is 10x greater than anyone we could ever draft, so the season is lost. Now, in May. We suck. We're done. Marv has had a whole 16 months, and we're not going anywhere. It's over.

God, it's frustrating to know as little as I do.

[Don't Panic]

Completely healthy Posluszny > Willis

I like Pos too, but that MAY be a stretch. Here's hoping I'm wrong, though.

[HAMMER]

Op and Pat make me ashamed to even post anything positive here. They know with absolute certainty that the Bills will suck, while stupid, clueless me thinks that our young guys might actually improve and develop.

We didn't sign Cato June, Lance Briggs or whomever else is 10x greater than anyone we could ever draft, so the season is lost. Now, in May. We suck. We're done. Marv has had a whole 16 months, and we're not going anywhere. It's over.

God, it's frustrating to know as little as I do.

Good post Jan. One thing is for sure, a tiger can't change his stripes, these two will piss and moan even when we win a Super Bowl. My guess is they will say something along the lines of, "There is no way this team stays competitive, Ralph is too cheap, the team will be disbanded."

[justasportsfan]

Op and Pat make me ashamed to even post anything positive here. They know with absolute certainty that the Bills will suck, while stupid, clueless me thinks that our young guys might actually improve and develop.

We didn't sign Cato June, Lance Briggs or whomever else is 10x greater than anyone we could ever draft, so the season is lost. Now, in May. We suck. We're done. Marv has had a whole 16 months, and we're not going anywhere. It's over.

God, it's frustrating to know as little as I do.


Crybabies. At least OP is not arrogant and simply negative. Moran is "I know this guy, and know that guy" "i'm a legit sportswriter who only writes a BLOG" . Moran needs attention and has the need to prove himself to a mb. Anyone legit doesn't have to constantly name drop and defend himself on a message board.

[OpIv37]

Op and Pat make me ashamed to even post anything positive here. They know with absolute certainty that the Bills will suck, while stupid, clueless me thinks that our young guys might actually improve and develop.

We didn't sign Cato June, Lance Briggs or whomever else is 10x greater than anyone we could ever draft, so the season is lost. Now, in May. We suck. We're done. Marv has had a whole 16 months, and we're not going anywhere. It's over.

God, it's frustrating to know as little as I do.

I never said "with absolute certainty"- those are words that people like Justa put in my mouth. However, it is far more likely that this D is going to suck than anything else.

You're doing the same thing Justa does- assuming that it's all about not signing big name free agents.

First of all, by your own admission, our young guys will have to improve. Second our D was ranked 28th against the run last year. Third, we lost three starters and only gained a rookie and Darwin Walker (maybe- he may not even show up).

So, why do you think it is reasonable for rookie improvement to make the 28th ranked run D competitive virtually on it's own? It's possible, but it sure as hell ain't likely.

[OpIv37]

Good post Jan. One thing is for sure, a tiger can't change his stripes, these two will piss and moan even when we win a Super Bowl. My guess is they will say something along the lines of, "There is no way this team stays competitive, Ralph is too cheap, the team will be disbanded."

oh yeah? that's a faulty assumption because this team hasn't won **** since this message board has been in existence. I want this team to WIN and when they start WINNING, I'll probably still complain about what they do wrong but my posts won't be nearly as negative because there won't be nearly as much to be negative about.

I don't know why people on this board continue to extrapolate people's views on a consistently disappointing football team to every aspect of life.

[justasportsfan]

I never said "with absolute certainty"- those are words that people like Justa put in my mouth. However, it is far more likely that this D is going to suck than anything else.

You're doing the same thing Justa does- assuming that it's all about not signing big name free agents.

.
haha! yeah right. Jan and I are not the only ones who think you're a whiner. You were voted the boards biggest whiner and very well deserved. Anything positive , you turn into a *****fest.

[OpIv37]

haha! see what I mean. That'll teach you to say I don't take a stand. Next time you say that about me just remember that I was willing to put cash where my mouth is.


I can see how crybabies would call me a homer even though I rank the bills 3rd in the AFCE at this point in time. A homer would rank the bills no. 1 in the AFCE.

I can also see how crybabies would call me a homer. I'm usually the one who's more vocal about your whines. Can't stand crybabies in my personal life even on the boards. Posters I usually go back and forth with were ICe , Wys , PAt and OP. All negative whiners. All you do is criticize and whine. even when someone says "i hope" you start pissing on it.



To a whiner, having a" jury still out on Marv" is being a homer. Oh well. I'm gald to be called an anti-whiner. I'm PROUD of it.

WTF are you talking about? PAt is the worst " wait and see guy". He'll have an opinion and then wait and see where it leads to and then change it.


Pat is not sometimes wrong. He's always wrong. Everytime he says something, he changes his mind. When you change your stance on something that means you were wrong .That's why I don't care about what he has to say because I know he'll swing the other way at some point and then say "I know football". Yeah right.

.Have a stance and stick to it. Don't go back and forth like John Kerry.

Have a stance and stick to it even when you're totally wrong like Bush? Yeah, that's a successful way of doing things....

To a homer, judging each of Marv's moves on it's own is being a "whiner" which is absolutely ridiculous. I don't recall anyone saying Marv is a failure- I do recall some people bashing him for some moves and praising him for others, and other people kissing his ass no matter what he does.

That's what you don't understand- I'm simply trying to realistically assess this team's chances for success this season, and realistically, there is a lot to whine about. But to you, you'd rather "wait and see". Well, that's ****ing boring. I think this D is going to suck and it's not much of a stretch because there are a lot of good reasons to think that way. Unfortunately, a lot of people here turn a blind eye to those reasons, and that somehow makes me a "whiner" for trying to enlighten people. Please.

[Devin]

I think McCargo will be fine. I read an article that said he was 100% Odd to hear this now.

Tripplett was also double teamed a lot last year.

Who cares about Darwin Walker. Let him sit out for two years and not get paid.

Spikes won't be missed (post injury), Fletcher is already missed.

Clements leaving is a non-issue, especially at $80 million.

Completely healthy Posluszny > Willis

Buddy I like ya, andgenerally like your posts but DAMN.

I was a HUGE Poz supporter but him over Willis?

Tripplett may have been double teamed often last year hes still average on a good day.

McCargo is still a wild card as far as his health goes. As far as his ability I think if he can stay healthy he will be a solid DT. Not great, but good.

[OpIv37]

haha! yeah right. Jan and I are not the only ones who think you're a whiner. You were voted the boards biggest whiner and very well deserved. Anything positive , you turn into a *****fest.

because anything positive ignores all the negative, and there is a hell of a lot more negative around here.

And you do the exact opposite- every time someone says something negative, you have to go and whine about it and accuse them of being "whiners". To you, anyone who says anything bad about this team is a "whiner" and that's just ****ing ridiculous. There are people who repeat the same BS about Youboty having a "first round grade" over and over again, yet that doesn't bother you. But the second someone points out any one of the multitiude of flaws this team has, you jump all over them.

And BTW Phil beat me for the biggest whiner, so you don't even have your facts straight- http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=117903&highlight=whiner

[justasportsfan]

because anything positive ignores all the negative, and there is a hell of a lot more negative around here. haha! In your world.

The fact that I don't have the bills being better than the jets means I haven't ignored the negatives. Your problem is you want me to say the bills suck over and over again. Sorry, I'm no b1tch.


And you do the exact opposite- every time someone says something negative, you have to go and whine about it and accuse them of being "whiners". To you, anyone who says anything bad about this team is a "whiner" and that's just ****ing ridiculous. There are people who repeat the same BS about Youboty having a "first round grade" over and over again, yet that doesn't bother you. But the second someone points out any one of the multitiude of flaws this team has, you jump all over them.

And BTW Phil beat me for the biggest whiner, so you don't even have your facts straight- http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=117903&highlight=whiner


WRONG! Funtimes can be negative so can hurricane and I don't jump on their every negative post. unlike you and Moran, they aren't repetitive. They don't beat the deadhorse like you do.

Again lack of comprehension. Did I say it was this latest voting that you won? You WERE means at some point. DUH!!! My facts are straight.

[Jan Reimers]

First of all, by your own admission, our young guys will have to improve.


Right! That is EXACTLY how most good teams are built. They draft good players and develop them. We have 6 good defensive picks from last year, plus Poz. Sprinkle in Triplett and Walker, and all you really have left from TD's starting (and seriously aging) D are the DEs (who I think are pretty damned good, but I know you disagree) and McGee.

In all seriousness, I don't understand why you can't seem to acknowledge that young, talented guys can - and do - improve. Weren't Spikes and Fletcher rookies once, and didn't they improve? And now that neither are totally effective anymore, it's time to replace them.

[patmoran2006]

OP just relax.. His posts rarely if ever have anything to do with football, and they end up being attacks on being a "whiner" when the reality is whining about someone whining is even worse.

If your going to whine, at least whine about the Bills and/or the subject of the thread.. Unreal.

[justasportsfan]

Right! That is EXACTLY how most good teams are built. They draft good players and develop them. We have 6 good defensive picks from last year, plus Poz. Sprinkle in Triplett and Walker, and all you really have left from TD's starting (and seriously aging) D are the DEs (who I think are pretty damned good, but I know you disagree) and McGee.

In all seriousness, I don't understand why you can't seem to acknowledge that young, talented guys can - and do - improve. Weren't Spikes and Fletcher rookies once, and didn't they improve? And now that neither are totally effective anymore, it's time to replace them.
Cmon Jan. As much as he denies it, OP thinks like the redskins. every back up and every player we release has to be a probowler.

[OpIv37]

haha! In your world.



WRONG! Funtimes can be negative negative , so is hurricane but unlike you and Moran, they aren't repetitive. They don't beat the deadhorse like you do.

Again lack of comprehension. Did I say it was this latest voting that you won? You WERE means at some point. DUH!!! My facts are straight.

with the way this team has been playing, how can you possibly say that there isn't more negative? That's just ridiculous for someone who actually wants the team to win.

And the reason I'm so repetitive is because the homers are repetitive too. I didn't start the "misconceptions" thread after the first time I read about how great McCargo was going to be- I can only read that garbage so many times before I have to try to set people straight.

You don't seem bothered by the fact that people constantly repeat about Youboty's "first round grade" or how the "biggest jump is from the first year to the second year", yet when I repeat the negative stuff, suddenly you get your panties all in a bunch :rolleyes:.

It's not beating a dead horse that bothers you- it's only beating a dead horse with stuff YOU don't want to hear, which is anything that suggests this team may still have some issues.

[OpIv37]

Right! That is EXACTLY how most good teams are built. They draft good players and develop them. We have 6 good defensive picks from last year, plus Poz. Sprinkle in Triplett and Walker, and all you really have left from TD's starting (and seriously aging) D are the DEs (who I think are pretty damned good, but I know you disagree) and McGee.

In all seriousness, I don't understand why you can't seem to acknowledge that young, talented guys can - and do - improve. Weren't Spikes and Fletcher rookies once, and didn't they improve? And now that neither are totally effective anymore, it's time to replace them.

First, Tripplett SUCKS. This guy is a huge disappointment.

Second, Walker may hold out so, to use an outdated cliche, its "counting the chickens before they hatch".

Third I never said they wouldn't improve- I said they probably WOULD, but you're talking about guys improving enough in ONE YEAR to correct all the deficiences that led to us being 28th in run D AND simultaneously compensate for the loss of 3 starters. It's not reasonable to expect that degree of improvement just from one season's worth of experience.

Fourth, I don't have a problem replacing guys, but typically you find replacements BEFORE you get rid of them instead of saying "Let's just stick this guy in there and hope for the best". We tried that when Pat Williams left and we still haven't recovered.

[Jan Reimers]

Op and Pat, if the Bills do well this year - if their O line is improved, Lynch and Poz produce, and the young D takes a big jump forward - will you be happy? Or will you be pissed that all of your negativism was missplaced?

Or will you just find other things about the Bills to ***** about?

[Devin]

Or will you just find other things about the Bills to ***** about?

that.

[Jan Reimers]

It's funny. I can see a lot of weaknesses with the Bills. They are not deep enough at LB; Youboty is a big question mark at CB; I'd like a better #2 WR; we still lack a quality TE; the right side of the O line is unsettled; and we could use another DT.

But I can also find a lot of positives, and don't think our problem areas are necessarily fatal. I think we are definitely headed in the right direction, and have some GREAT young players.

While I've always considered myself a fan, I guess I'm a homer to Op and Pat, because I can actually see a lot of good in this team.

[OpIv37]

Op and Pat, if the Bills do well this year - if their O line is improved, Lynch and Poz produce, and the young D takes a big jump forward - will you be happy? Or will you be pissed that all of your negativism was missplaced?

Or will you just find other things about the Bills to ***** about?

I want this team to win more than anything- the reason I ***** so much around here is because we haven't been winning and IMO we won't be winning this year either.

If we start winning, I can't guarantee that I'll never complain (especially after losses), but I can guarantee there will be a lot less pessimism and negativity in my posts.

[HHURRICANE]

I like people that tell it like it is. They don't lie to themselves. Even if Kelsay is completely wrong, at least he was original from the usual propoganda machine. Big ups to Kelsay.

Not to stir the pot but he was brutally honest on one point. He said this was a great year to be a free agent and he would be curious to see how many sit out of camp because guys that weren't as good were getting bigger contracts than those who signed them 2 years ago. I almost fell over because he could have called Schobel by name at that point.

[OpIv37]

It's funny. I can see a lot of weaknesses with the Bills. They are not deep enough at LB; Youboty is a big question mark at CB; I'd like a better #2 WR; we still lack a quality TE; the right side of the O line is unsettled; and we could use another DT.

But I can also find a lot of positives, and don't think our problem areas are necessarily fatal. I think we are definitely headed in the right direction, and have some GREAT young players.

While I've always considered myself a fan, I guess I'm a homer to Op and Pat, because I can actually see a lot of good in this team.

there are some positives and I could see this thing coming together in 08 or 09, but as far as 07 goes I see a lot more potential pitfalls than potential boosts.

[HHURRICANE]

Op and Pat, if the Bills do well this year - if their O line is improved, Lynch and Poz produce, and the young D takes a big jump forward - will you be happy? Or will you be pissed that all of your negativism was missplaced?

Or will you just find other things about the Bills to ***** about?

Hey, I'm pretty realistic about things. I get excited when there is something to get excited about. With Lynch, Wright, Dockery, Langston, Whittle and a bunch of guys coming into their own the offense is something to get excited about.

However, the D added an average veteran DT who is holding out currently and replaced 2 starting LBs with one 2nd round rookie. That's it for a D that was abymysal last year.

Expecting your goldfish to grow wings and fly is pretty unrealistic.

[bflojohn]

From a totally impatial view, for the Op and Pat side of the argument.... If someone was a Bills fan and was clinically depressed, you folks would make them truly catatonic!! The opposing side argues that the future of the Bills MAY BE BRIGHT... Personally, I enjoy the never-say-die quality and also realize that 31 other teams throughout the National Football League have fans that are passionate and want their squads to excell. Welcome to the world of competitive athletics, some win, some lose! My views are that of one who realizes that the Buffalo Bills may NEVER win a Super Bowl, and one only needs to look at the poster boys (Chicago Cubs) for proof. Will I be disappointed if this POSSIBLE occurance were to befall me, YES! Does it make my life miserable and incomplete, NO! I choose to rise to a different plain and just simply enjoy the Bills for what they are, a Professional Football Team striving to win a championship, nothing more (or less!).

[Jan Reimers]

Expecting your goldfish to grow wings and fly is pretty unrealistic.
But expecting good, talented people to grow and get better isn't.

I've had my own business for 20 some years now, and I've seen young, inexperienced - but bright and eager to learn - employees turn into partners in the firm.

I'm glad I didn't judge them as negatively as some posters judge the Bills' young players.

[justasportsfan]

with the way this team has been playing, how can you possibly say that there isn't more negative? .
Huh? What the hell are you talking about now. Where did I say therre isn't more negative? I've come to the conclution comprehension is not your strongest thing.

I just don't keep repeating the negatives. I know what the negative are.


You don't seem bothered by the fact that people constantly repeat about Youboty's "first round grade" or how the "biggest jump is from the first year to the second year", yet when I repeat the negative stuff, suddenly you get your panties all in a bunch . .I think you got it the other way around. We all know *****es wear panties.

That's okay, you play Manny Wright very well.

[HHURRICANE]

But expecting good, talented people to grow and get better isn't.

I've had my own business for 20 some years now, and I've seen young, inexperienced - but bright and eager to learn - employees turn into partners in the firm.

I'm glad I didn't judge them as negatively as some posters judge the Bills' young players.

Okay I'll bite.

I have already factored that Simpson, Whitner, and Kyle Williams will all be much better players this year. Second year starters really make the jump.

I think Yobouty, even though he may struggle early, will be a huge surprise this year (optimistic enough for you?).

What players are stepping up to greatness? Name them all.

[HAMMER]

The battle between optimism and pessimism never ends.

[Jan Reimers]

Okay I'll bite.

I have already factored that Simpson, Whitner, and Kyle Williams will all be much better players this year. Second year starters really make the jump.

I think Yobouty, even though he may struggle early, will be a huge surprise this year (optimistic enough for you?).

What players are stepping up to greatness? Name them all.
I didn't say greatness. But I agree on Youboty, and would expect Whitner and Simpson to be one of the better safety tandems in the league, while Williams, McCargo and Ellison should also improve over last year. Poz is a very bright, highly motivated guy who I believe will get better with every game.

I don't know of any All Pro or HOFer who sprang into full stardom from his mother's womb. They all had to come into the league as rookies and improve their games.

[HHURRICANE]

I didn't say greatness. But I agree on Youboty, and would expect Whitner and Simpson to be one of the better safety tandems in the league, while Williams, McCargo and Ellison should also improve over last year. Poz is a very bright, highly motivated guy who I believe will get better with every game.

I don't know of any All Pro or HOFer who sprang into full stardom from his mother's womb. They all had to come into the league as rookies and improve their games.

Based on your response maybe we get to 28th in the league for D. I think the point that Op, Pat, and even myself is making is that this defense isn't looking much better than last year. That's frustrating wether you like it or not.

Success is the playoffs. Is this D currently good enough to get us there? I think you can figure that one out on your own.

[Jan Reimers]

I can't argue with people who don't understand that young players can make major improvements, or that older players go into decline.

If we followed your model, we would trade all of our draft picks for established free agents.

[HHURRICANE]

The battle between optimism and pessimism never ends.

The battle between realists and homers never ends.

Read every post I wrote this time last year. 7-9, 7-9, 7-9 and 7-9. I never waivered even when some of you were predicting 4 wins. On the other side I don't see anybody on this board who posted playoffs or Superbowl coming forward either.

This is an 8-8 or maybe 9-7 team if Dick really coaches up. I wouldn't be shocked at 7-9 again either. Is that pessimism or being realistic?

[OpIv37]

I can't argue with people who don't understand that young players can make major improvements, or that older players go into decline.

If we followed your model, we would trade all of our draft picks for established free agents.

it's not that they don't improve- it's the degree of improvement that they would need to make this D viable.

And we're not talking about 1 or two guys who need to improve- we're talking about McCargo, Williams, Ellison, Whitner, Simpson and Youboty. I'll even leave out Youboty since he didn't get a full year of development last year. Sometimes players improve and sometimes what you see is what you get. So, to expect all 5 of those guys to not only improve but improve enough in one year to correct for last year's deficiencies and the loss of 3 starters and general youth and lack of experience on D- wow, that's really asking a lot.

Also, sometimes you need to find a player's replacement before or at the same time that they leave. I know that's not always possible, but in 2 years we've replaced 8 starters on D. That's a hell of a lot of turnover to try to pull off at once.

[HHURRICANE]

I can't argue with people who don't understand that young players can make major improvements, or that older players go into decline.

If we followed your model, we would trade all of our draft picks for established free agents.

Was this directed towards me? I just said that I expect a bunch of our 2nd year players to make some big leaps this year. However, I don't see alot of Brian Urlachers, Lawrence Taylors or Champ Bailey's in the makings.

You knew after one season that Lee Evans and Jason Peters were going to be big stars on this team. What I see on D is alot more Crowells and Kelsays coming up.

[HHURRICANE]

it's not that they don't improve- it's the degree of improvement that they would need to make this D viable.

And we're not talking about 1 or two guys who need to improve- we're talking about McCargo, Williams, Ellison, Whitner, Simpson and Youboty. I'll even leave out Youboty since he didn't get a full year of development last year. Sometimes players improve and sometimes what you see is what you get. So, to expect all 5 of those guys to not only improve but improve enough in one year to correct for last year's deficiencies and the loss of 3 starters and general youth and lack of experience on D- wow, that's really asking a lot.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

How does anybody argue with this post? Seriously.

[Jan Reimers]

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

How does anybody argue with this post? Seriously.
Oh, I know I'm not worthy, because you guys are omniscient, but I'll try. If Whitner, Simpson, Ellison, Williams and McCargo improve over last year, then we're stronger at their 5 positions. And how much they improve, who knows? It may be a lot for a couple of these guys, including Whitner.

I also think Crowell will be much better than a hobbled Spikes, and here is the blasphemy - that Poz can be as good, or better, than the fabled Fletcher. I know this will make me an idiot in your eyes, but I think Fletcher was a very average LB who can be replaced by a great, young college LB.

Walker, assuming we get him signed, will be an improvement over Anderson/Jefferson, and Triplett - who played better toward the end of last season - may live up a little more closely to what we thought we were getting last year.

We'll also have another year in the system, with fewer guys unsuited to play the Cover 2. (Read: Spikes, Fletcher and probably Anderson will be gone.)

That's a lot of improvement in my mind, but I realize not in yours, because you can see the future and know the limitations of our young players and the degree of their growth.

[Wys Guy]

I must say, tremendously amusing when one comes in here. It's like a ladies tea where the chitchat is all about what's going on with everyone on the street or in the neighborhood.

A few observations:


Op and Pat, if the Bills do well this year - if their O line is improved, Lynch and Poz produce, and the young D takes a big jump forward - will you be happy? Or will you be pissed that all of your negativism was missplaced?

Or will you just find other things about the Bills to ***** about?

I think they'd be quite happy Jan, I really do. But allow me to ask you and others taking your side, you and others have been going through this drill for years, literally. So if the Bills don't do well this year, if their OL really isn't that much improved, especially considering that we've spent tons of money, if Lynch and/or Poz don't produce IAW expectations, if the young D takes a big jump backwards, will you be unhappy? Or will you continue to support the people giving you all that and insist that everyone else that is unhappy with, and seemingly justifiably so as real fans, continue to give them the benefit of the doubt for whatever your reasons are?

I can only assume you'll continue on just as you are here now, because that's been the case for seasons, yet nothing's changed. BTW, they will be correct this fall. Your expectations for a couple of rookies on a talent-challenged team otherwise are way beyond reasonable.

Just curious. Because if anything, those people criticizing the team for non-production have a lot more basis for their points of view than does anyone insisting that we're heading in the right direction.

You said that players improve. Of course they do. They also bust, but it's funny, you never seem to even mention that possibility even though the odds of it occurring outweigh the fact that they improve to the extent that they make a difference.

Meanwhile, give us your time frame for all of this occurring please?

Had you considered the Schobel isn't in his 20s any longer? Do you expect him to play to an impact level 'til he's what, 34, 36, 40? Have you considered what our DL would be like w/o him? Suppose he gets hurt? Not likely I know, but nevertheless. Oh, I forgot, we won't have any key injuries this fall, we're the Bills.

Evans is up after '09; what if he doesn't like what's going on here or we can't afford him. He'll surely cost more than a decent but not great guard, right?

You, justafan, and others continually throw out all of these notions as if they're all locks for occurring. Yet you never ever consider the often far more likely scenarios that the gamut of players held by the team will produce along a normal curve, ... even though we've typically gotten even less out of them than that in recent years.

Y'all seem to completely ignore the fact that the people behind the scenes for personnel regardless of GM or coach, since about 2000, have been just about exactly the same people. You never factor that in.

You ignore how players played elsewhere and immediately dismiss years of history as soon as they are signed by us as if the team name on the contract guarantees that they will flip-flop in terms of performance. (Tripplett and L. Walker)

When players are here, they rock. The second they leave we either didn't need them or they now suck, but woulda been good had they not left no doubt.

I certainly know that I've made some very bold and detailed predictions that you and others like you criticize me for, yet when those players leave, it's amusing how much of what I predicted all of a sudden is the going thing right here.

I understand that some fans are fans merely to the extent that winning isn't part of the equation. Perhaps those are the fans that go to the games and leave in the 3rd Q even in a good game, or the fans that attend games as if they're going to a picnic or some casual outting of no consequence.

But some fans link winning and fandom together and expect the most from all aspects of their team including how it's run. Yet, the guys running it ignore the "writing on the wall" regarding players as if their prior performance is meaningless. (college or pro)

I guess my point is that I wonder when some of the so-called fans that continue to be satisfied with the team as it's been presented to them for nearly a decade now and in the midst of one of the worst playoff droughts, if not the worst, in the history of the team (fact, not debatable or opinion), will begin to demand a little bit more.

I guess never since y'all seem to be perfectly content with finishing seasons at or near .500 or with a losing season altogether while posting most statistical performances among the bottom of the league in most categories.

You wouldn't allow your financial portfolio advisor to continue on like that, or at least presumably. But you do with your "team advisor(s)." Why?

Meanwhile, people that raise perfectly legitimate questions and concerns about their team, and dissatisfaction with it, are chastised. Why? Shouldn't you be joining them if you're truly a fan with the team's best interests at heart? Seems to me yes.

Clearly recent history is not on your side. If anything, any "burden of proof" should befall you in your "benefit of the doubt" scenario, not them in their criticism based on recent performances.

Meanwhile, assess your own statements for a moment; for everything that you hope for to come to pass, nearly everything "normal" must go perfectly or very close to it, for simple "improvements" yet not even leading us to the top of the league, merely advancing from the basement or near it.

I guess I just don't understand it. If we were the Fins you'd be making a mockery of us, and rightly so. But instead, in essence, you take a can of spoiled peaches and slap a new label on it, "new and improved" says the manufacturer, and it's grade-A quality chow now.

The people that should be on the defensive, besides those entrusted with running our team, are those that think that all of a sudden what hasn't happened in over a decade will somehow happen yet without any solid reasons for it.

Yeah sure, what you say can happen. The complete opposite can also happen, everyone could bust. In all likelihood reality will fall somewhere in between the two first standard deviations of a normal curve, slightly below average if recent history holds sway.

Anyway, given the changes in our team, what you say will happen is so not likely to occur, instead of you asking everyone else what happens if it does, how about telling us what your thoughts are gonna be when it doesn't.

Silly question though, it'll be just like it is now, again, until of these years, or decades, we finally get it right at least for a season, and then you'll be preaching up a storm of "See, I told ya so!" Eh.

You guys need to be a little more lenient to fans that really want a winner. Maybe you are, but speaking at least for many fans, we're not a subsidy for the team. We're customers as it were. Right now this product is among the worst in the league. As long as we are paying for it, I dare say we have a right to complain.

I'll tell ya what however, I'd be curious as to how you put your predictions into statistical format. I'd be happy, in fact ecstatic, to have you generate yours in terms of how well you think we're going to do in terms of a predetermined statistical template that is relatively comprehensive, and compare that to mine, both made ahead of time and then reevaluated after the season.

At that point let's see who hit it more accurately and let that person or group of people hold the "credibility rights" between the end of this coming season and the following one.

Talk is cheap my friend. You know that. At some point it gets really old listening to people that run the team contradict themselves on a year-to-year basis, bring in guys under absurd notions (DTs over 300 lbs. aren't quick/disruptive, while simultaneously assuming that anyone <300 is, e.g.), and otherwise continually fail to move this team forward in a consistent manner. Meanwhile, you want those that aren't satisfied with mediocrity, usually worse, to agree with you when there is no substantive basis to support your position as the accurate or likely to occur one.

Doesn't make any sense to me, but hey, what do I know.

BTW, I probably won't come back in here to read all the responses, so take it rhetorically.

[OpIv37]

Oh, I know I'm not worthy, because you guys are omniscient, but I'll try. If Whitner, Simpson, Ellison, Williams and McCargo improve over last year, then we're stronger at their 5 positions. And how much they improve, who knows? It may be a lot for a couple of these guys, including Whitner.

I also think Crowell will be much better than a hobbled Spikes, and here is the blasphemy - that Poz can be as good, or better, than the fabled Fletcher. I know this will make me an idiot in your eyes, but I think Fletcher was a very average LB who can be replaced by a great, young college LB.

Walker, assuming we get him signed, will be an improvement over Anderson/Jefferson, and Triplett - who played better toward the end of last season - may live up a little more closely to what we thought we were getting last year.

We'll also have another year in the system, with fewer guys unsuited to play the Cover 2. (Read: Spikes, Fletcher and probably Anderson will be gone.)

That's a lot of improvement in my mind, but I realize not in yours, because you can see the future and know the limitations of our young players and the degree of their growth.

When Crowell filled in for Spikes, he was better but I wouldn't say he was "much better". When Spikes went down in 05 and Crowell filled in, there was a definite drop off in play. Granted Crowell has improved a little since then but I still don't see us being much better.

As far as Poz, I could maybe see him equaling Fletch's production, but keep in mind there will be a little bit of a learning curve. More importantly, Fletcher was the "quarterback" of the D and few if any players are ready to play that role starting with their first game. His leadership and experience will be missed.

[Earthquake Enyart]

:faint:

[justasportsfan]

I must say, tremendously amusing when one comes in here. It's like a ladies tea where the chitchat is all about what's going on with everyone on the street or in the neighborhood.

.


and you must be the Den Mother. Not even Women don't yap as much as you do.

[YardRat]

I think the point that Op, Pat, and even myself is making is that this defense isn't looking much better than last year.

If you could point out a link or direct me to some kind of film of this year's defense playing or even practicing together, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to see how they look also so that I could comment whether or not they look better or worse than last year's D.

[gr8slayer]

Well according to some Bill fans, what you saw from him last year is exactly what you can expect from him this year, so get the hope out of your head cause all that matters is what happend last year....or is that just something that only applies to other players on other teams, but doesn't apply to the Bill players?? I'm still trying to figure out the rules and theories that Bill fans put on other teams, but not their own.
0-2

[OpIv37]

If you could point out a link or direct me to some kind of film of this year's defense playing or even practicing together, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to see how they look also so that I could comment whether or not they look better or worse than last year's D.

yeah, no one's ever seen any of the guys on our D play football before :rolleyes:

[YardRat]

yeah, no one's ever seen any of the guys on our D play football before :rolleyes:

Considering some of the comments I've read, that's actually believable.

[Wys Guy]

As an example:


Oh, I know I'm not worthy, because you guys are omniscient, but I'll try. If Whitner, Simpson, Ellison, Williams and McCargo improve over last year, then we're stronger at their 5 positions. And how much they improve, who knows? It may be a lot for a couple of these guys, including Whitner.

Exactly, IF. And if not, then oh well, so much for your theories. The latter three would have to take a monstrous leap forward to achieve even average status.


I also think Crowell will be much better than a hobbled Spikes, and here is the blasphemy - that Poz can be as good, or better, than the fabled Fletcher. I know this will make me an idiot in your eyes, but I think Fletcher was a very average LB who can be replaced by a great, young college LB.

Right, you think. And if that's as accurate as your past year's "thinks" then we're in a world heap of trouble, huh. Yes, Poz can be good. He can also reak. Fletcher, regardless of your opinion, was an above average linebacker. The odds of Poz providing that on this team behind a porous line are not good my friend. Either way, he won't just as much chance wise as he can. It will be what it will be, but to insist that it's a given is just unfounded.


Walker, assuming we get him signed, will be an improvement over Anderson/Jefferson, and Triplett - who played better toward the end of last season - may live up a little more closely to what we thought we were getting last year.

Oh really? He will huh? You know this, eh. What if what you say here isn't true? Should anyone believe you next year at oh, about this time?

What does that say about the guys that you defend then in giving Tripplett nearly $20 million last year? Shouldn't we then renegotiate Walker's contract to give him at least the nearly $4M per year that Tripplett got on average under such a case? And what about McCargo who plays the same position? I suppose you're ready to label him a bust then? Or what?

Also, how many high paid guys do you want to have playing one position? Just a question.


We'll also have another year in the system, with fewer guys unsuited to play the Cover 2. (Read: Spikes, Fletcher and probably Anderson will be gone.)

Spikes isn't "unsuited" to play the cover 2. Not at all. He may not be what he was, but right now it's looking like it would have been better to keep him around than trade for a problematic Walker now causing a ruccous and team and media disturbance and disrupting chemistry.

Fletcher can't cover and therefore is not suited to the cover 2, at least as a MLB, but I've pointed that out since he joined the Bills and it's pretty funny how everyone argued with me on that, 'til now apparently.

Posluszny may be more natural for the cover 2, but he is far from ideally sized for the role at MLB. He does have a learning curve, just like all rookies, to overcome to do what you say he will.


That's a lot of improvement in my mind, but I realize not in yours, because you can see the future and know the limitations of our young players and the degree of their growth.

Exactly, in your mind. When it happens on the field we can talk further.

You criticize those guys for "being able to see the future" by insisting that you in fact can. Can't there merely be such a thing as "let's just wait and see" in an agreement to disagree? Again, recent history is on the side of those critical of the team. If you can't see the gaff in logic there, well, let's just say that ignorance is indeed bliss which certainly explains why a certain subset of fans seem to be happy season in and season out with garbage being served them.

[Jan Reimers]

Good to hear from you, Wys.

I'll just say a couple of things. First, if you'd ever seen me at a game, you'd know there is no more pissed off fan in the world than I am. I hate losing and I hate having missed the playoffs for 7 straight years. And at my age - you know, people tell me not to buy green bananas - this losing every year is getting serious.

I can't change the past, or undo the damage that Donahoe did. I think Marv has us going in the right direction and I think we're no more than a season away, and I think it could happen this year. I'm willing to give Marv the benefit of the doubt.

But I'm a fan, and an optimist and I've loved the Bills since they came to town in 1960. I guess that explains why I still believe they're getting better, even in the face of all of the overwhelming evidence around here that they're a lost cause.

[Wys Guy]

and you must be the Den Mother. Not even Women don't yap as much as you do.

LOL

I'll have to calculate my next move as a result of your "I know you are, but what am I" defense.

I nominate you as the court jester.

Any second, ...

[lordofgun]

This is weird.

[ddaryl]

This is an 8-8 or maybe 9-7 team if Dick really coaches up. I wouldn't be shocked at 7-9 again either. Is that pessimism or being realistic?


If we go 7-9 this year then IMO that is a step forward. We purged some aging vets who are on the decline and replaced them with youth. lost players on D and gained players on O.

If this team goes 7-9 this year I will consider it a positive. To lose as many key players as we have equalling last years record means our team is ready for the playoffs in 2008. We made the commitment to build a young core of players that will get better together.... we can not expect things to be much better then that realisticly.

[YardRat]

What the hell is a 'ruccous' ??

[Jan Reimers]

As a fan, all of this negative crap sucks the life out of me. Before I came here, I thought it was fun to be a fan, particularly at this time of the year, when every team is 0-0, we have a ton of young players, and the sky's the limit.

But I know now that the sky is not the limit. It has fallen, and I can't get up.

[Romes]

This is weird.

this thread is a time warp :dream:

[Wys Guy]

Good to hear from you, Wys.

I'll just say a couple of things. First, if you'd ever seen me at a game, you'd know there is no more pissed off fan in the world than I am. I hate losing and I hate having missed the playoffs for 7 straight years. And at my age - you know, people tell me not to buy green bananas - this losing every year is getting serious.

I can't change the past, or undo the damage that Donahoe did. I think Marv has us going in the right direction and I think we're no more than a season away, and I think it could happen this year. I'm willing to give Marv the benefit of the doubt.

But I'm a fan, and an optimist and I've loved the Bills since they came to town in 1960. I guess that explains why I still believe they're getting better, even in the face of all of the overwhelming evidence around here that they're a lost cause.

LOL What, with the green bananas now.

:D

Well, all that having been said, let's not count our chickens yet. Many applaud changes before we've even seen the results. In my pieces, I told you what we were getting in Tripplett and was right to a T.

Now, with Langston Walker, just look at the guy's record. It's not good nor ever has been. He's 28, not 25. Why the hope that he's gonna do anything but what he's done for five seasons since he's been in the league? Why? I just don't get it.

As to the rookies, fine, I have hopes for both too, but I'm not naive enough to think for a split second that all will go perfectly and as planned. It won't.

I don't think anyone's saying that they're a lost cause. But if you can identify what's wrong with the team, why not correct it as soon as possible? Why not? AHEM, management!!!

At your age, 39, and mine, 29, we don't need two more decades of this nonsense where Wilson runs off and hires a buddy of his that "he likes" instead of someone perhaps competent for one reason or another that will in turn hire coaches that can do the job.

Instead, McNally gets a decade to attempt to "work his magic." Jauron, six losing seasons now in seven, the one winning with an incredibly easy schedule, is expected to finally win a string of seasons. Levy in his '80s is what, getting shrewder by the ... year, or where are we there? No one should have to tell Levy about the green bananas either, yet, apparently someone does.

Fans can put pressure on management, especially in a high profile place such as this and others like it. But when everyone slaps them on the back and decries more time, more resources, etc. when the ones spent ain't gittin'-'r-done, how much more trust do you want to yield?

Say what you want, but thus far we've gotten nothing from two of last season's top three draft picks. Nada. That's a fact, not some obscure opinion.

This year there's no way that three of our top five picks even have a shot at starting except for the failures of prior picks or Losman. That's also a fact.

They will be a lost cause with another couple seasons of this. At some point no one at all is going to care anymore. If Lynch or Poz doesn't show much this fall, then it's not going to be good.

Either way, at some point you simply have to challenge the methods of the management.

I'm tellin' you what Langston Walker is for example. You can take that to the bank. Why? Because I'm some sort of genius? No, but because I've taken a look at what he's done on average, read up on him, and seen that he's been the same for five seasons. Maybe that's why he hasn't started except for last season with abysmal results it can be added. So why will that change? If it doesn't, was it wise to pay him $25M and what, $12M guaranteed? I don't see how it could possibly be.

You will see what I'm talking about this fall. Look over his career yourself, don't take my word for it. It's simple looking at facts. I didn't make the facts, just reading and heeding them. You and justafan and everyone else can do the same. You simply choose not to, or rather perhaps to ignore them instead.

I enjoyed seeing you at the last game we attended!!

[Wys Guy]

As a fan, all of this negative crap sucks the life out of me. Before I came here, I thought it was fun to be a fan, particularly at this time of the year, when every team is 0-0, we have a ton of young players, and the sky's the limit.

But I know now that the sky is not the limit. It has fallen, and I can't get up.

I hear that.

It does suck. But ignoring the problems doesn't help. Discussing solutions may. It's at least somewhat therapeutic. Perhaps cathartic if nothing else.

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"

Great movie, eh.

[Wys Guy]

This is weird.

What? Who are you?

:D

[Jan Reimers]

I enjoyed seeing you at the last game we attended!!
Me, too. Hope we can do it again. Maybe we could even agree on something, like the field is green or the beer is good.

[Wys Guy]

If we go 7-9 this year then IMO that is a step forward. We purged some aging vets who are on the decline and replaced them with youth. lost players on D and gained players on O.

If this team goes 7-9 this year I will consider it a positive. To lose as many key players as we have equalling last years record means our team is ready for the playoffs in 2008. We made the commitment to build a young core of players that will get better together.... we can not expect things to be much better then that realisticly.
Repeating 7-9 may very well be an improvement. But if half the teams on our schedule all regress or finish such that we only beat teams finishing 7-9 or worse again, then maybe not.

We need to begin to control the lines of scrimmage. That would be an improvement. We didn't control either one last year. We face a lot of tough runners and rushing teams this season. The Fins should improve, the Giants will be worse, who knows with the Skins who have a good running game however.

Dallas could be better or worse. Cleveland should improve, perhaps monstrously. Pittsburgh, who knows, but they seem to have our number. Cincy, we play them tough typically, but how will we stop their balanced O?

Cutler should be better for Denver and I'm afraid of Henry in week one. New England will take two from us. The Jets are on the right track as well.

Tough to say, but we will likely have injuries too. Just hope they aren't to Evans, Schobel, Crowell, or Peters. Big troubles then.

[Wys Guy]

Me, too. Hope we can do it again. Maybe we could even agree on something, like the field is green or the beer is good.

We could meet on St. Patty's day when the beer is green and the field is good.

As long as they have Yuengling Lager, I'm happy w/ the beer.

I hope to be able to attend the Tasker WoF game. Tasker is my favorite Bills player all-time hands down. I would also like to make the Denver home opener. I'm still a fan of Henry's. I really wish we hadn't traded him.

Either way, it's always a pleasure attending the game parties to see who's yacking in those nice bathrooms at 1 a.m.

:D

[John Doe]

Well, all that having been said, let's not count our chickens yet. Many applaud changes before we've even seen the results. In my pieces, I told you what we were getting in Tripplett and was right to a T.


How about mentioning the times that you were "wrong to a T?"

[Jan Reimers]

We could meet on St. Patty's day when the beer is green and the field is good.

As long as they have Yuengling Lager, I'm happy w/ the beer.

I hope to be able to attend the Tasker WoF game. Tasker is my favorite Bills player all-time hands down. I would also like to make the Denver home opener. I'm still a fan of Henry's. I really wish we hadn't traded him.

Either way, it's always a pleasure attending the game parties to see who's yacking in those nice bathrooms at 1 a.m.

:D
My wife and I should be at them all, except for maybe the Giants game, which is a little close to Christmas. But if we're in the playoff hunt. . .

Actually, I've graduated to Ketel 1. Tastes great, less filling.

[HHURRICANE]

You guys are funny. Make an obvious appraisal of the D and people lose their minds.

Yardrat: Nobody needs to see the D play, right now, to figure out that they aren't the 85 Bears. We've made very modest additions and we've seen most of the D play already.

Jan: Your eternal optimism is engaging but there is no law against being realistic in an evaluation.

The funny part is that we are on page 5 of this thread. Had I posted "We're making the Superbowl" or "Playoffs here we come" there would be 3 groans and 5 replies.

Truth hurts.

[B-DON]

and Pat claims to know football? haha!

Honestly get off Pats nuts. Every thread has you taking shots at im. The problem is all your jokes suck. Get better jokes or stop telling them

[justasportsfan]

Honestly get off Pats nuts. Every thread has you taking shots at im. The problem is all your jokes suck. Get better jokes or stop telling themmake me.

[Goobylal]

Gee, I wonder what the predictions of the negs was LAST year. Anyone know or care to admit to it?

[ShadowHawk7]

I don't care what he said on the radio, he better worry about himself and kick ass this season after that contract we gave him.

[DaBillzAhDaShiznit]

Gee, I wonder what the predictions of the negs was LAST year. Anyone know or care to admit to it?

While I am not a full time pesimist, I will admit to losing my rose colored glasses a few years ago.

I believe going into the season last year I predicted 4-5 wins.
I even went so far to say that I believed there was a chance they could win less than that!

So, I was wrong. I hope I am wrong in the same fashion this year when I say I predict 6-7 wins.

[Night Train]

As a fan, all of this negative crap sucks the life out of me. Before I came here, I thought it was fun to be a fan, particularly at this time of the year, when every team is 0-0, we have a ton of young players, and the sky's the limit.


I'm the same way, Jan. Optimism isn't the enemy.

I'm well aware of Ralph Wilson and his ways, having attended games since the mid 1960's. No one needs to give me a history lesson on this team. I hate losing as much as the biggest complainers/whiners here but prefer to discuss solutions, rather than use the forum as a personal wailing wall.

Telling me how many years we have missed the playoffs, played poorly etc. does little else but make me yawn with boredom. I'm on to seeing what year 2 of the Marv/Jauron admin can do and will grade these Bills accordingly. What TD and everyone before did no longer applies, other than to compare and bellyache.

I'll wait until camp to see the product before formulating any 2007 predictions. I like many areas of our roster and hope to see some summer pickups to help the D, if the present depth can't step up. We haven't a perfect roster, like most teams in the cap age, so coaching/scheming is at a premium.

Looking forward to taking a trip down the thruway to camp for a few sessions. Always a great time of year when hope springs eternal.

Go Bills !

[Goobylal]

While I am not a full time pesimist, I will admit to losing my rose colored glasses a few years ago.

I believe going into the season last year I predicted 4-5 wins.
I even went so far to say that I believed there was a chance they could win less than that!

So, I was wrong. I hope I am wrong in the same fashion this year when I say I predict 6-7 wins.
I applaud your honesty.

[BillsFever21]

I think most of us are not simply "McCargo fans" per se (or JP fans or Youboty fans, etc., etc.), but Bills' fans. That is, we hope - and expect - our players, and particularly our high draft picks, to perform well, so that the TEAM improves.

I haven't seen enough of a guy like McCargo to have a real strong opinion either way. But we drafted him in the first round, so I have every expectation that he will make a big contribution to our D this year. That is simply in contrast to those who already "know" that he'll suck.

Just because you "hope and expect" a young high draft pick to be good doesn't mean they will be. And god forbid everybody might not think so.

[Michael82]

This is weird.
yeah it is. I never would have thought I'd get the pleasure of seeing Wys post again. :shocked:

[Jan Reimers]

Just because you "hope and expect" a young high draft pick to be good doesn't mean they will be. And god forbid everybody might not think so.
No, I realize a certain element here knows that every young guy we have will suck. Before he even plays. That's fine.

I simply choose to give our players a chance, before crapping all over them and everything else the Bills do.

Sorry that my optimism offends you and the other omniscients who already know - in May - that we are doomed.

[justasportsfan]

No, I realize a certain element here knows that every young guy we have will suck. Before he even plays. That's fine.

I simply choose to give our players a chance, before crapping all over them and everything else the Bills do.

Sorry that my optimism offends you and the other omniscients who already know - in May - that we are doomed.

and yet they're whining about not grabbing a young cb in the 3rd rd. they don't know what they're whining about anymore . :coocoo:

Just pack it up and wait for next year. It's the easy way out. Just give up.