Honestly, time to give Marv some criticism.

[HHURRICANE]

Overall I have been pretty happy with the Jauron/Marv leadership at OBD. However, Marv is a motivator and chemisrty builder, not a businessman. He's made some mistakes and he needs to be accountable for them:

1) Nate Clements. The homers don't want to admit that we got nothing for him. Who agrees not to franchise the hottest FA in the league and get nothing in return?

2) Darwin Walker. This is a cluster. I guarantee that the Bills didn't know that his rights revert back to Philly. Marv didn't know and than finally came clean.

3) This is second guessing but was Poz still going to be there when the Bills picked at #43? The kid doesn't look like he's starting either.

4) McCargo needs to play in the season opener. This was a reach pick that Marv had his name on. The guy needs to play because he is a 1st rounder.

5) Willis and Spikes landed us no better than a late 3rd rounder. No offense but if someone said that both of these guys were getting traded you would have thought that we could have gotten a 2nd rounder somewhere.

I like Marv and I'm glad we have him. However, I loved my grandfather too but I wouldn't let him invest my money. Who's helping Marv make decisions around there?

[justasportsfan]

how can you guarantee no. 2? You have sources too?

[Wys Guy]

3) This is second guessing but was Poz still going to be there when the Bills picked at #43? The kid doesn't look like he's starting either.

I like Marv and I'm glad we have him. However, I loved my grandfather too but I wouldn't let him invest my money. Who's helping Marv make decisions around there?

The same personnel department that "helped" Donadope.

Who says that Puz isn't starting?

OTA talk? B/c if DiGiorgio starts at MLB then we're freakin' hosed. Things will have just gone from the frying pan into the fire. As well, if your 1st and early 2nd rounders can't start immediately, then it's not an endorsement for your FO. Even the late-2nd rounders, 3rds, and 4ths should be doing something in their rookie years now in the NFL. This ain't 1972 where rookies could be stockpiled for later use.

[OpIv37]

1) Agree- that "gentlemen's agreement" was a huge mistake.
2) Agree- this may be the dumbest trade ever
3) Semi-agree. This one could go either way because if Marv didn't make the trade and someone else took Poz when we need an LB so bad, he'd look like a complete jackass too. I can't completely fault him for this trade, provided Poz starts.
4) I've never been thrilled with the McCargo pick but the jury's still out IMO.
5) The Spikes trade was covered in #2. As far as McGahee, it's tough to say if we got good value because a lot of people around the league think he's better than he is. I still say it's good riddance, but I would have rather seen it done earlier so we could have had more picks for THIS year. Next year's draft picks won't help this team win THIS year.

[madness]

Last time I checked, no GM is perfect. You could make a list like this for any GM in the NFL. Even thou holy Polian, himself.

A GM's job is to put together a winning team. The success of that team is how they are held accountable. Not by how many business decisions didn't pan out. Hindsight, my friend.

[OpIv37]

The same personnel department that "helped" Donadope.

Who says that Puz isn't starting?

OTA talk? B/c if DiGiorgio starts at MLB then we're freakin' hosed. Things will have just gone from the frying pan into the fire. As well, if your 1st and early 2nd rounders can't start immediately, then it's not an endorsement for your FO. Even the late-2nd rounders, 3rds, and 4ths should be doing something in their rookie years now in the NFL. This ain't 1972 where rookies could be stockpiled for later use.

oh now you've done it.

you're going to get 6 million posts telling you that you have no idea how DiGiorgio will play and that London Fletcher was a UDFA, as if that somehow makes DiGiorgio better.

[bigbub2352]

i hate to say it but gettin rid of Spikes, Mcgahee and Clements was not by choice they all wanted out of here and that is what some of these NFL experts need to realize, plus for the money we were paying Spikes to not play at a ProBowl level was a waste, Fletcher was old and making plays 15 yards down feild, and Clements only makes plays when the game dont matter or we r playing the awesome stable of QB's in Maimi
I will take an unproven Lynch over an overatted Mcgahee any day
Poz will start at MLB that was just OTA's and Digorgio will be an outstanding backup and ST player, a good find by Marv and Co. since he is from a Div II school
But i got to agree with u on Walker this is making Marv look bad, but i do think they knew what was up with him, maybe they thought they could get him to agree to the 1yr deal thing and rent him for a year while McCargo develops, he is only 23, DT usually take awhile
Plus we got 2 3rds and a 7th for half ******* Mcgahee,
Spikes if Walker doesnt sign or get traded will be a bad deal i agree with u there

[justasportsfan]

OP's got a friend :snicker:

[Wys Guy]

Last time I checked, no GM is perfect. You could make a list like this for any GM in the NFL. Even thou holy Polian, himself.

A GM's job is to put together a winning team. The success of that team is how they are held accountable. Not by how many business decisions didn't pan out. Hindsight, my friend.

Well, OK, that and $4 will get you a Starbucks Coffee.

The goal should be to hire competence. We didn't do that, once again. Now we're stuck with an OJT GM that's merely a wooden figure head for a previously failed support staff led by a personnel department that's really more or less run the show here since we've sucked hind teet.

Get ready though, I'm sure that Wilson's next move once Levy "retires" after either this or next season will be to promote Modrak, the source of many of the Bills' problems. So just get ready for that. That'll serve as a nice softball sized suppository for us fans just prior to Wilson's death and the sale and move of the team.

Gosh, I just can't wait. LOL

[Wys Guy]

OP's got a friend :snicker:
Maybe we can pitch in and get you one too.

:snicker:

[justasportsfan]

Maybe we can pitch in and get you one too.

:snicker:


haha! No thanks. I already know the world is gonna end , but not in my lifetime.

[Wys Guy]

haha! No thanks. I already know the world is gonna end , but not in my lifetime.

What are you, a Chihuahua running around nipping at my heels yelping?

Shoo fly!

[alohabillsfan]

Last I checked we were 7-9 and were in all but 2 games against a brutal schedule all in all not bad for a 1st year GM and coaching staff, let see what we do this year.

[justasportsfan]

let see what we do this year.

that is not acceptable. Either you say the bills will suck or the bills are going to the sb. There's no wait and see in their world. That would be considered as not having a take.

[madness]

Well, OK, that and $4 will get you a Starbucks Coffee.


I hate coffee. Even if I did like it, I wouldn't spend $4 on one unless it was premium grade and a size of a Big Gulp.

[patmoran2006]

Im going to spare the homer portion of this board at this time and decline to offer my opinion and insight as to the job I think Levy has done thus far.

Of course, that can change at any moment.

[Goobylal]

1. It probably wouldn't have made a difference. If they didn't make the agreement last year, Clements likely sits-out the first 8 games. Then this off-season they franchise him and he does the same thing. Next year they cannot franchise him and are still in the same boat, except you've disrupted things for 2 years.
2. Totally wrong. The Bills are the ones who put the "rights revert back to Philly" clause in there. It's not like Philly wanted him back or Walker wanted to go back, much less the clause wrote itself.
3. No one knows if Poz would have been there (and Harris doesn't fit the 4-3, or at least hasn't proven he does). And Poz isn't NOT starting yet, although truth be told I'd rather see JD surprise everyone and start, play great, and allow Poz to learn at his own pace or compete at WLB.
4. McCargo wasn't a reach and his injury was unfortunate. Call it bad luck IF he doesn't ever play for the Bills, but it's way too early for that.
5. Both are damaged goods. Frankly I'm surprised they got what they did for McGahee, considering you couldn't trade better RB's for even a 2nd rounder the past couple years, and Spikes would have been cut because he's practically done.

[OpIv37]

bad luck? He had the exact same injury in college, not to mention that most people thought McCargo could have been had in the second round. It's not Marv's fault that McCargo got injured, but you have to question the logic of trading up and reaching for a player that has a recurring-type injury.

[justasportsfan]

what was your prediction in terms of team record last year Hurricane?

[Goobylal]

bad luck? He had the exact same injury in college, not to mention that most people thought McCargo could have been had in the second round. It's not Marv's fault that McCargo got injured, but you have to question the logic of trading up and reaching for a player that has a recurring-type injury.
The Giants were going to take McCargo before the Bills traded-up in front of them. They admitted as much last year.

And lots of players have injuries in college. Does that mean that you don't draft ANY player that's been injured for fear it happens again?

[justasportsfan]

Get ready though, I'm sure that Wilson's next move once Levy "retires" after either this or next season will be to promote Modrak, the source of many of the Bills' problems. So just get ready for that. That'll serve as a nice softball sized suppository for us fans just prior to Wilson's death and the sale and move of the team.

Gosh, I just can't wait. LOL
Puhlease. When it doesn't happen you won't admit it. Worst in franchise history. Ha! I waited for that, never happened.

[OpIv37]

The Giants were going to take McCargo before the Bills traded-up in front of them. They admitted as much last year.

And lots of players have injuries in college. Does that mean that you don't draft ANY player that's been injured for fear it happens again?

The Giants wanted him- so what? Does that automatically make him worth what we gave up to get him?

And injuries have to be a factor, particularly certain types of injuries that tend to recur. When you combine the two- what we had to give up for McCargo AND the fact that he had an injury with a relatively high potential of recurring- the logic of the pick has to be questioned. IMO we still have to see what McCargo does on the field before making a final judgement, but at the moment the move does not appear to be very bright. And if that assessment holds up, it's a mistake, not "bad luck".

[Goobylal]

If another team wants a player at around the same spot in the draft you ended up taking him, it's not a "reach." All the talk about Whitner and McCargo being "reaches" centered around how people thought they would be available much later than they were picked. In both cases, that was false. Hence they weren't "reaches."

As for the claim that McCargo's injury had a "relatively high potential of recurring," again you could say that for ANY injury a player suffers in college. But again let's wait until McCargo cannot play before we pass judgement on this.

[OpIv37]

You're COMPLETELY wrong. Some injuries are much more likely to recur than others- and McCargo has one of the ones that is more likely to recur. And again, some other team wanting a player does not automatically make that player worth what we had to give up to get him.

[X-Era]

Overall I have been pretty happy with the Jauron/Marv leadership at OBD. However, Marv is a motivator and chemisrty builder, not a businessman. He's made some mistakes and he needs to be accountable for them:

1) Nate Clements. The homers don't want to admit that we got nothing for him. Who agrees not to franchise the hottest FA in the league and get nothing in return?

2) Darwin Walker. This is a cluster. I guarantee that the Bills didn't know that his rights revert back to Philly. Marv didn't know and than finally came clean.

3) This is second guessing but was Poz still going to be there when the Bills picked at #43? The kid doesn't look like he's starting either.

4) McCargo needs to play in the season opener. This was a reach pick that Marv had his name on. The guy needs to play because he is a 1st rounder.



5) Willis and Spikes landed us no better than a late 3rd rounder. No offense but if someone said that both of these guys were getting traded you would have thought that we could have gotten a 2nd rounder somewhere.

I like Marv and I'm glad we have him. However, I loved my grandfather too but I wouldn't let him invest my money. Who's helping Marv make decisions around there?

Why the sudden change of heart? Why are you "suddenly" critical...all of the sudden :rolleyes:

Sorry, Im gonna have to watch the games and the win loss columns before becoming critical

[Goobylal]

You're COMPLETELY wrong. Some injuries are much more likely to recur than others- and McCargo has one of the ones that is more likely to recur. And again, some other team wanting a player does not automatically make that player worth what we had to give up to get him.
Worth is determined AFTER a player has finished his career. And as for recurring injuries, we'll just agree to disagree. I guess the safe thing would be to draft players who were never seriously injured in college. But that's no guarantee either.

[OpIv37]

Worth is determined AFTER a player has finished his career. And as for recurring injuries, we'll just agree to disagree. I guess the safe thing would be to draft players who were never seriously injured in college. But that's no guarantee either.

I don't know why you're disagreeing with established medical facts. It's more about type of injury than severity.

[Goobylal]

Give me some links.

[justasportsfan]

Worth is determined AFTER a player has finished his career. .
Wait and see? Homer!!!

[OpIv37]

Give me some links.

It's hard to say without knowing exactly what the foot fracture is, but here are a few:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/06/15/bills-dt-john-mccargo-on-track-for-july-return/

Foot injuries of any kind can be tricky, so the Bills and McCargo had better be careful. Even the most minor of setbacks can be damning.

http://www.emedicine.com/SPORTS/topic39.htm


The tarsometatarsal (TMT) fracture-dislocation, or Lisfranc fracture-dislocation, is named after a field surgeon in Napoleon's army who described amputations through the TMT joint. Injury to the TMT joint was common when a soldier's boot became caught in the stirrup during a fall from horseback. More recently, Lisfranc injuries have been observed in snowboarders and windsurfers, as well as in football and rugby players. Typically, the Lisfranc fracture-dislocation occurs when one player falls onto the heel of another while the foot is plantar flexed and fixed, resulting in axial loading. The clinical presentation depends on the degree of displacement. Almost universally, patients complain of pain in the midfoot with the inability to bear weight. Edema and ecchymosis usually are present. Gross deformity of the forefoot may be seen in severe cases. Vascular compromise may manifest as absence of the dorsalis pedis pulse.

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/foot_facts/a/foot4.htm

The best treatment for a stress fracture is rest. Taking a break from from the routine and doing some low impact exercise for a few weeks (six to eight) can help the bone heal. If rest isn't taken, chronic problems such as larger, and more persistent stress fractures can develop. Re-injury may result in a chronic foot problem and the stress fracture might never heal properly.

There are two articles about different types of foot fractures that can lead to chronic problems.

[madness]

Give me some links.

He won't tell you that this "reoccurring injury" or clean break of an incorrectly healed stress fracture probably saved McCargo from being plagued his whole career by chronic foot pain.

[madness]

It's hard to say without knowing exactly what the foot fracture is, but here are a few:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/06/15/bills-dt-john-mccargo-on-track-for-july-return/


http://www.emedicine.com/SPORTS/topic39.htm



http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/foot_facts/a/foot4.htm


There are two articles about different types of foot fractures that can lead to chronic problems.

He fractured the fifth tarsometatarsal (pinky toe) in college which doctors said didn't heal right. He broke the same bone last year.

[HHURRICANE]

Last I checked we were 7-9 and were in all but 2 games against a brutal schedule all in all not bad for a 1st year GM and coaching staff, let see what we do this year.

You had me at 7-9.

[HHURRICANE]

Why the sudden change of heart? Why are you "suddenly" critical...all of the sudden :rolleyes:

Sorry, Im gonna have to watch the games and the win loss columns before becoming critical

Time out. I'm not "suddenly" being critical. I have been all over the Nate thing since it happened last year. I said that if we ended up getting nothing I'd be pissed and hold Marv accountable.

I think Marv has been a good change form Donohoe. However, he's made some decisions that don't get swept under the rug.

People forget that we are trying to make the playoffs and not finish 8-8.

[G. Host]

2) Darwin Walker. This is a cluster. I guarantee that the Bills didn't know that his rights revert back to Philly. Marv didn't know and than finally came clean.

You guarentee is not worth the toilet paper used to wipe your ass and the Bills are cleaner than your ass after you wipe it!

[X-Era]

Time out. I'm not "suddenly" being critical. I have been all over the Nate thing since it happened last year. I said that if we ended up getting nothing I'd be pissed and hold Marv accountable.

I think Marv has been a good change form Donohoe. However, he's made some decisions that don't get swept under the rug.

People forget that we are trying to make the playoffs and not finish 8-8.

You missed the sarcasm. You have been one of the more vocal critics.

Just to clear the air, I think we are better at EVERY position where we had change except CB. So, I do agree that I am concerned there too.

[OpIv37]

He won't tell you that this "reoccurring injury" or clean break of an incorrectly healed stress fracture probably saved McCargo from being plagued his whole career by chronic foot pain.

why is it that I get called out for links on information that's basically common sense but you don't get called out for links on very specific information?

[Goobylal]

Well Op, I don't know how you can post these:


You're COMPLETELY wrong. Some injuries are much more likely to recur than others- and McCargo has one of the ones that is more likely to recur.

and


I don't know why you're disagreeing with established medical facts. It's more about type of injury than severity.

and then post this:


It's hard to say without knowing exactly what the foot fracture is...

And yes I also read what madness was saying, i.e. about breaking an incorrectly healed stress fracture probably saving his career.

I guess time will tell. Which is why this thread for the most part is WAY too premature.

[OpIv37]

Well Op, I don't know how you can post these:



and



and then post this:



And yes I also read what madness was saying, i.e. about breaking an incorrectly healed stress fracture probably saving his career.

I guess time will tell. Which is why this thread for the most part is WAY too premature.

Well until I started looking it up I didn't know there were so many different types of foot fractures. And I have no idea where madness got his information because I couldn't find anything NEARLY that specific on McCargo- everything was general.

of course, you're neglecting the biggest factor: It happened TWICE in TWO YEARS. And the second time required TWO separate surgeries. What does that tell you about the possibility of recurrence when it's REALITY and no longer just possibility?

[Goobylal]

An incorrectly healed stress fracture WILL lead to a reoccurrence. I doubt anyone realized that that was the original problem, but when they did, they did surgery to correct it. The 2nd procedure was little more than a "cleanout" procedure you hear players getting on their knees.

Again I'll wait until McCargo proves it one way or another.

[patmoran2006]

Time out. I'm not "suddenly" being critical. I have been all over the Nate thing since it happened last year. I said that if we ended up getting nothing I'd be pissed and hold Marv accountable.

I think Marv has been a good change form Donohoe. However, he's made some decisions that don't get swept under the rug.

People forget that we are trying to make the playoffs and not finish 8-8.
Marv may be a good change from Donahoe in terms of a public image and likability-- and he may go on at some point to lead the Bills to a playoff birth.

But let's call a spade a spade. To this point (and to be fair to Marv he's still relatively new) Marv has been very similar to Donahoe in more ways than people care to acknowledge or admit.

If you want to be really critical about off the field-- I dont recall any Donahoe-led team having four consecutive blackouts. Therefore, I find it hard to buy into the theory that Levy has brought anymore excitement to the team.

At any rate, Levy's approach and moves have been eerily similar in many regards. For one, they've both made mediocre to terrible FA calls on the OL. Donahoe signed mediocre guys like Gandy and bums like Anderson and Villarial. Levy signed mediocre guys like Fowler and signed a guard that was such a bum (Reyes) he went from starter, to bench, to inactive to the waiver wire inside one full year.

Donahoe was accused often of being too "Cute" with the draft and taking too many skilled players and not enough beef on the lines. Well, through two drafts Marv has drafted 8 players in rounds 1-4. Exactly one of those players has been a defensive linemen, and exactly NONE of those players are from the offensive line. That pretty much kills any theory that Marv is building the team along the lines anymore than Donahoe did.

Donahoe got blasted by many for wasting a first day draft pick on a RB (McGahee) when we already had our RB in town (Henry). LEvy takes a QB (Edwards) when we already have our QB (Losman), not to mention a QB that was given a $1.3 signing bonus last year and a cap hit of $1.73 million this year (Nall)-- kind of makes either the signing of Nall last year or the selection of Edwards this year stupid-- flip a coin and take your pick.

By the way, Willis was a draft pick ONLY because Donahoe was smart enough to tag Price and then trade him. As for Levy (cough cough Clements cough)

Donahoe got blasted for the hiring of unproven coaches (and deservedly so) in Greg Williams and Mike Mularkey--- yet Levy's first major move is to hire a head coach (Jauron) that has had ONE winning season in his head coaching career, and from any Chicago article I read or fan's assesment, couldn't wait to get rid of the guy. While Donahoe passed over guys like Charlie Weiss, John Fox and Marvin Lewis--- Levy passed over two young coaches (Mangini and Payton) who both led their teams to playoff appearances as rookies! (and mind you both teams had worst records than Buffalo in 2005)

Lastly, Donahoe got blasted (til this day) for "overpaying" to sign FA vets like Spikes, Adams, Vincent and Milloy who were past their prime. Well Levy is already doing a fine job of overpaying vets like Kelsay, Langston Walker, Josh Reed and Peerless Price who will barely ever even HAVE a prime.

I respect Levy as a person and especially a head coach, and it's unfair to throw him to the dogs after one season. But what bothers me most is that people continue to blast away at Donahoe and still blame an awful lot on him (which would be fine). However, from what I just presented to you Marv Levy sure appears to be doing a very similar job in his approach to building the team the exact same way; with taking too much fancy side dishes over meat in the draft; overpaying for some mediocre free agents and just some flat-out horrible personnel decisions (Tagging Clements and not trading him, dumping Spikes for a guy they won't sign, passing on Mangold for McCargo, Reyes, Matt Bowen)

Who are the six best players on the Bills today? I think universally in no particular order its Evans, Schobel, Crowell, Losman, Moorman and Peters.

They're all Donahoe guys. That's not a vote of confidence for Donahoe either because I'm far from happy with his performance. But Until Marv drafts or signs some impact players to continue that strong nucleus he's no better. Maybe he will, but so far his path at GM has been severely flawed-- Hall of Fame head coach, likeable citizen or not.

[OpIv37]

An incorrectly healed stress fracture WILL lead to a reoccurrence. I doubt anyone realized that that was the original problem, but when they did, they did surgery to correct it. The 2nd procedure was little more than a "cleanout" procedure you hear players getting on their knees.

Again I'll wait until McCargo proves it one way or another.

and where are you getting this information?

[patmoran2006]

I dont care if McCargo gets a brand new electronic foot and never hurts it again in his career.

Not taking Nick Mangold as the Kent Hull of this OL when he was RIGHT there AND a need instead of John McCargo is absolutely DEPLORABLE.

Especialyyyyyyyyyyyyy seeing he's a 3-technique guy and we gave Larry Tripplett $17 million to play the same spot two months prior to the draft.

What has been the biggest achiles heel of the Bills for several years now? Oh, that would be the OFFENSIVE LINE.. So when we get the opportunity to solidify the center spot for the next decade what does Bills brass do? They reach for a DT who benefited from playing alongside fellow first rounders Manny Lawson and Mario Williams-- who plays the same damn spot as our big 2006 FA "score"..

And is anyone surprised at how good Mangold already is? I mean, seriously.

Terrible, TERRIBLE donahoe-like move right there.

[Goobylal]

Is anyone surprised how Mangold is doing? Yes. Tell me the last first round center to amount to anything and I'll give you a reason to have doubted taking Mangold a priori. Furthermore, the Bills had signed Fowler prior to the draft and needed DT's, seeing as how they were rebuked by Ryan Pickett.

Oh annd McCargo will be playing 1-tech, and Williams and Lawson didn't exactly tear-up the NFL last year.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Just don't go making it seem like everyone knew how it would go. I guess you should be lamenting how the Bills needed a #2 WR and let Colston slip by them.

[patmoran2006]

THere's a big difference between a 7th rounder who surprised the football world and became a star.

and a center that was PROJECTED to go in the first round, WENT in the first round and 12 months later is considered by nearly everybody to be a perennial pro bowler for the next decade.

The Fowler excuse is a poor one as A) He's anything but proven and B) can play guard. As opposed to Tripplett who was our "marqee" free agent signee last year.

And moreso about McCargo-- He'll be playing the 1-technique IF he can stay on the field-- more so because the $17 million 3-tech guy is anything but a stud and we literally have nobody else to play the 1-spot. If McCargo was drafted to play the 1-spot he'd have been playing it from the first day of training camp.

[patmoran2006]

Marv may be a good change from Donahoe in terms of a public image and likability-- and he may go on at some point to lead the Bills to a playoff birth.

But let's call a spade a spade. To this point (and to be fair to Marv he's still relatively new) Marv has been very similar to Donahoe in more ways than people care to acknowledge or admit.

If you want to be really critical about off the field-- I dont recall any Donahoe-led team having four consecutive blackouts. Therefore, I find it hard to buy into the theory that Levy has brought anymore excitement to the team.

At any rate, Levy's approach and moves have been eerily similar in many regards. For one, they've both made mediocre to terrible FA calls on the OL. Donahoe signed mediocre guys like Gandy and bums like Anderson and Villarial. Levy signed mediocre guys like Fowler and signed a guard that was such a bum (Reyes) he went from starter, to bench, to inactive to the waiver wire inside one full year.

Donahoe was accused often of being too "Cute" with the draft and taking too many skilled players and not enough beef on the lines. Well, through two drafts Marv has drafted 8 players in rounds 1-4. Exactly one of those players has been a defensive linemen, and exactly NONE of those players are from the offensive line. That pretty much kills any theory that Marv is building the team along the lines anymore than Donahoe did.

Donahoe got blasted by many for wasting a first day draft pick on a RB (McGahee) when we already had our RB in town (Henry). LEvy takes a QB (Edwards) when we already have our QB (Losman), not to mention a QB that was given a $1.3 signing bonus last year and a cap hit of $1.73 million this year (Nall)-- kind of makes either the signing of Nall last year or the selection of Edwards this year stupid-- flip a coin and take your pick.

By the way, Willis was a draft pick ONLY because Donahoe was smart enough to tag Price and then trade him. As for Levy (cough cough Clements cough)

Donahoe got blasted for the hiring of unproven coaches (and deservedly so) in Greg Williams and Mike Mularkey--- yet Levy's first major move is to hire a head coach (Jauron) that has had ONE winning season in his head coaching career, and from any Chicago article I read or fan's assesment, couldn't wait to get rid of the guy. While Donahoe passed over guys like Charlie Weiss, John Fox and Marvin Lewis--- Levy passed over two young coaches (Mangini and Payton) who both led their teams to playoff appearances as rookies! (and mind you both teams had worst records than Buffalo in 2005)

Lastly, Donahoe got blasted (til this day) for "overpaying" to sign FA vets like Spikes, Adams, Vincent and Milloy who were past their prime. Well Levy is already doing a fine job of overpaying vets like Kelsay, Langston Walker, Josh Reed and Peerless Price who will barely ever even HAVE a prime.

I respect Levy as a person and especially a head coach, and it's unfair to throw him to the dogs after one season. But what bothers me most is that people continue to blast away at Donahoe and still blame an awful lot on him (which would be fine). However, from what I just presented to you Marv Levy sure appears to be doing a very similar job in his approach to building the team the exact same way; with taking too much fancy side dishes over meat in the draft; overpaying for some mediocre free agents and just some flat-out horrible personnel decisions (Tagging Clements and not trading him, dumping Spikes for a guy they won't sign, passing on Mangold for McCargo, Reyes, Matt Bowen)

Who are the six best players on the Bills today? I think universally in no particular order its Evans, Schobel, Crowell, Losman, Moorman and Peters.

They're all Donahoe guys. That's not a vote of confidence for Donahoe either because I'm far from happy with his performance. But Until Marv drafts or signs some impact players to continue that strong nucleus he's no better. Maybe he will, but so far his path at GM has been severely flawed-- Hall of Fame head coach, likeable citizen or not.
Nick Mangold was a HALF SENTENCE of this post.. It's not about Nick Mangold.. It's about the decisions that Levy is making being very SIMILAR to the same kind of ones that Donahoe did.

[Goobylal]

You mentioned Mangold versus McCargo in a separate post, so I replied to it. Again the Bills signed Fowler to play center, not guard, and few projected-1st-round centers have done well in the NFL the past 2 decades. For every Mangold, I can name you guys like Chris Spencer, Jake Grove, Jeff Faine, Jeff Hartings, Steve Everitt, Bern Brostek, and Brian Williams. Hindsight doesn't change that fact. Again you might as well lament every missed pick by the Bills if that's the tact you want to take.

As for the other stuff, the last 4 games not selling-out is totally on the fans. The Bills were still in the playoff hunt going into the final 2 home games, yet the last 4 final home games failed to sell out. I was shaking my head wondering WTF the fans wanted! Not to mention the blizzard and Sabres' run might have had something to do with it. Or maybe fans just preferred the sound and fury of TD's moves?

WRT Edwards in the 3rd round, I know I have been clamoring for them to draft a QB to push JP/develop to trade later. And not some UDFA. And I can't fault them for going value versus reaching for a need. Again hindsight may prove that taking Edwards over Hughes was a mistake, but time will tell on that.

Spikes and McGahee were basically gone. Spikes will never be the player he once was and wanted out. McGahee was a bum and wasn't a Levy guy. His half-hearted efforts and embarrassments off-the-field won't be missed, much like his dancing, failure to pickup blitzes, poor pass-catching, and not knowing the down or play won't be missed on the field. I'm surprised the Bills were able to get what they got for either player, given the circumstances.

WRT the Clements situation, I already addressed it. The new CBA says you can only franchise a player twice. And had they franchised him again this year, he wouldn't have gotten traded. Just look at Samuel. I didn't agree with agreeing to NOT franchise him at the time, but lo and behold, hindsight told me it really made no difference.

As for who the Bills should have signed, I won't bother getting into that. Suffice it to say that there are factors at work beyond the Bills' control. Yes Marv blew it with Reyes, but it's not like Reyes cost a ton, and it was more on him for failing to put forth any effort.

[Philagape]

And I can't fault them for going value versus reaching for a need. Again hindsight may prove that taking Edwards over Hughes was a mistake, but time will tell on that.

Hughes would not have been a reach. He went later than a lot of projections.

[patmoran2006]

Here's the point of my post.

We argue about Edwards and if he's a need pick or a value pick, just as we did in 03 about Willis McGahee when we already had Travis Henry.

We argue (I should say debate actually, we aint fighting) about us signing bums like Reyes, just like when TD signed Bennie Anderson.

That's my point of the post to begin with. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Levy's free agent moves, and where we draft our guys for what positions is very SIMILAR to Tom Donahoe. They have a lot more in common right now than people acknowledge.

The ONLY major difference I see is that TD's teams were built based on vets, while Levy's seem to be based on youth. I think they're both dropping the ball because you need a nice blend of both.

Its like criminal now on this board for us to look at a guy who's 30 years or older. Donavan Darius is a two time pro bowler and one of the more respected players in the NFL, yet 87% of this board thinks its taboo to sign him.

TD sold us on we can win now, and Levy's trying to sell us on we can win tommorow. part a obviously never happened and since IMO Levy in large is going the same route with his building (FA moves and draft picks), I dont see that changing anytime soon. The only difference is we are now younger.

I'd say that sells the fans "hope" but judging by last year's box office, not so much.

[Buckets]

What are you, a Chihuahua running around nipping at my heels yelping?

Shoo fly!

How did you get positive rep? You need to chill.

[SquishDaFish]

I agree with Pat that we should of taken Mangold. The OL has always been ignored to somewhat this year. Mangold would of been a great addition.

[justasportsfan]

Well Op, I don't know how you can post these:



and



and then post this:



And yes I also read what madness was saying, i.e. about breaking an incorrectly healed stress fracture probably saving his career.

I guess time will tell. Which is why this thread for the most part is WAY too premature.
haha!: No. "Youre completely wrong!" that's the problem with them. They are always right and then OooooPs!

[Wys Guy]

haha!: No. "Youre completely wrong!" that's the problem with them. They are always right and then OooooPs!

WAAH!! WAAAAAHHHH!!!

;)

Someone check to see if just needs a fresh pair of size 6 Huggies. Hopefully there's no leakage.

JK naturally! ;)

[Wys Guy]

Or wait, are you more like a size M Depends just?

[Goobylal]

Hughes would not have been a reach. He went later than a lot of projections.
The Bills felt that Hughes was a late-4th round talent and that Edwards' value was too great to pass up. Again, time will tell.

[patmoran2006]

The Bills felt that Hughes was a late-4th round talent and that Edwards' value was too great to pass up. Again, time will tell.
And they could be right. Edwards could turn into Montana and Hughes could end up being a career nickel back scrub..

The Bills in 03 thought Willis' value was too high to pass up and took him instead of a highly regarded guard they obviously had a bigger need for in Eric Steinbach. Yes, its always hindsight now, but its always hindsight with the Bills as we blow TOO MANY big decisions-- have since Polian left.

That's been my point all along.. AT THIS STAGE of the game, Levy's decisions as GM are very much similar to the one's Donahoe made in numerous regards.

[G. Host]

Hughes would not have been a reach. He went later than a lot of projections.
Then many teams passed him up despite projections. Lots of projections are a reach. Most of them by press and armature scouts & draftnics are just guesses.

[Goobylal]

Here's the point of my post.

We argue about Edwards and if he's a need pick or a value pick, just as we did in 03 about Willis McGahee when we already had Travis Henry.
The bigger question was using a 1st rounder on a guy who had suffered a major injury and wouldn't be able to play for at least a year, on a team with multiple needs and that already had a productive and healthy RB on the roster. Edwards OTOH is healthy and was a late 3rd round pick. And the Bills have needed a young QB to develop. If anything Edwards' presence pushes JP to work a little harder and not get complacent.


We argue (I should say debate actually, we aint fighting) about us signing bums like Reyes, just like when TD signed Bennie Anderson.
I had no problem with TD signing Anderson. Just because something doesn't work out, it doesn't mean that it was a bad decision at the time. And it's not like the Bills signed Anderson (or Reyes) at the exclusion of another player who turned out to be a stud.


That's my point of the post to begin with. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Levy's free agent moves, and where we draft our guys for what positions is very SIMILAR to Tom Donahoe. They have a lot more in common right now than people acknowledge.
This is based on 2 off-seasons, and Levy taking a SS and DT in the 1st round last year? That's a major stretch. I could say a lot of other teams are doing things like TD as well.

The ONLY major difference I see is that TD's teams were built based on vets, while Levy's seem to be based on youth. I think they're both dropping the ball because you need a nice blend of both.
I agree.


Its like criminal now on this board for us to look at a guy who's 30 years or older. Donavan Darius is a two time pro bowler and one of the more respected players in the NFL, yet 87% of this board thinks its taboo to sign him.
Depends on the price and how much he has left.

TD sold us on we can win now, and Levy's trying to sell us on we can win tommorow. part a obviously never happened and since IMO Levy in large is going the same route with his building (FA moves and draft picks), I dont see that changing anytime soon. The only difference is we are now younger.
LOL! TD "sold us on we can win now?" When, that first season when they went 3-13? And Marv is saying NOW "we can win tomorrow?" That's news to me.


I'd say that sells the fans "hope" but judging by last year's box office, not so much.
What about THIS year's box office? Who is selling what and who is buying?

[justasportsfan]

I had no problem with TD signing Anderson. Just because something doesn't work out, it doesn't mean that it was a bad decision at the time. And it's not like the Bills signed Anderson (or Reyes) at the exclusion of another player who turned out to be a stud.



Moran loved the Reyes signing. It's there in the threads from a year ago. Now that we've seen Reyes all of a sudden he calls him a bum. The winds have changed and so did his opinion.

[Philagape]

Then many teams passed him up despite projections. Lots of projections are a reach. Most of them by press and armature scouts & draftnics are just guesses.

And he was taken just three spots after our pick. He would not have been a reach.

[BillsFever21]

Last time I checked, no GM is perfect. You could make a list like this for any GM in the NFL. Even thou holy Polian, himself.

A GM's job is to put together a winning team. The success of that team is how they are held accountable. Not by how many business decisions didn't pan out. Hindsight, my friend.

How many GM's had that many questionable blunders in 1 year? That is almost unheard of. You wouldn't be able to count them now because they have all lost their jobs by now.

[BillsFever21]

Do you really think Clements is going to sit out 10 games for one season let alone two seasons? Or any NFL player for that matter?

The threats are there every season by franchised players but have you ever seen them carried out? When that deadline comes they sign the offer sheet. They want paid. They are not happy they don't have a long term deal but at the same time they are not going to give up 5 million dollars for one season let alone two. The NFL life is short. Do you think a player is going to piss away 2 years of his playing career and 5+ million each season? If you believe that then I have some nice property on the ocean in Iraq for a real good price if you want to buy it.

Also, you don't even have to worry about it coming to that because if you don't plan on keeping them then you trade them for compesation. If that player wants a long term deal and more guranteed money he will take the trade in a second. He was the hottest commodity on the NFL FA wire this year. Somebody would've given us something. At least a 2nd round draft pick to get him.

Why do you think there is never any NFL GM's that cave in to franchised players threats of sitting out 10 games? They aren't scared becasue they know the player isn't going to sit out the 10 games. Unless of course that is Mr. Cave Man, Marv Levy. That was an unprecedented and a joke of a move. Some try to spin it around that it was such a gracious and character act on his part. It was neither. It was a hasty and no cajones decision when he had all the barganing power.

You act like a player is going to sit out 10 games for the rest of his career and give up 5+ million each year in the process. That is very laughable. This is the first and only time you will ever hear of this kind of an agreement in the NFL. At the very worst but still unlikely I could see it on a team that feels they are that one player away from winning the SB that year and maybe they would make that agreement. Some doesn't notice or want to admit it but Buffalo wasn't even close to one player away from making the playoffs last year let alone winning the Super Bowl. If they never had any intentions of paying the money for him long term then he should've been traded.


1. It probably wouldn't have made a difference. If they didn't make the agreement last year, Clements likely sits-out the first 8 games. Then this off-season they franchise him and he does the same thing. Next year they cannot franchise him and are still in the same boat, except you've disrupted things for 2 years.
2. Totally wrong. The Bills are the ones who put the "rights revert back to Philly" clause in there. It's not like Philly wanted him back or Walker wanted to go back, much less the clause wrote itself.
3. No one knows if Poz would have been there (and Harris doesn't fit the 4-3, or at least hasn't proven he does). And Poz isn't NOT starting yet, although truth be told I'd rather see JD surprise everyone and start, play great, and allow Poz to learn at his own pace or compete at WLB.
4. McCargo wasn't a reach and his injury was unfortunate. Call it bad luck IF he doesn't ever play for the Bills, but it's way too early for that.
5. Both are damaged goods. Frankly I'm surprised they got what they did for McGahee, considering you couldn't trade better RB's for even a 2nd rounder the past couple years, and Spikes would have been cut because he's practically done.

[BillsFever21]

So if a college player had say 6 concussions in 3 years and maybe one or two during high school you could say his potential of being injured again isn't a big deal or any different then say somebody who broke his hand?


If another team wants a player at around the same spot in the draft you ended up taking him, it's not a "reach." All the talk about Whitner and McCargo being "reaches" centered around how people thought they would be available much later than they were picked. In both cases, that was false. Hence they weren't "reaches."

As for the claim that McCargo's injury had a "relatively high potential of recurring," again you could say that for ANY injury a player suffers in college. But again let's wait until McCargo cannot play before we pass judgement on this.

[Goobylal]

When a guy can make $500K a game and can still earn $3M by missing all of the off-season, training camp, pre-season, and 10 games of the regular season, it makes it a bit easier to contemplate sitting-out. And again, NO ONE was going to trade for Clements after his dismal 2005 season, and seeing as how no one is trading for Samuel, Clements likely wouldn't have been traded again this off-season.

As for concussions, they're a completely different animal than traditional injuries.

[BillsFever21]

You mentioned Mangold versus McCargo in a separate post, so I replied to it. Again the Bills signed Fowler to play center, not guard, and few projected-1st-round centers have done well in the NFL the past 2 decades. For every Mangold, I can name you guys like Chris Spencer, Jake Grove, Jeff Faine, Jeff Hartings, Steve Everitt, Bern Brostek, and Brian Williams. Hindsight doesn't change that fact. Again you might as well lament every missed pick by the Bills if that's the tact you want to take.


Every position has busts no matter what round it is. There have been far more QB's that have been busts as the #1 pick in the draft or the entire first round for that matter. Does that mean you should pass on the #1 rated QB that is one of the biggest needs on the team for the #3 or #4 player at another position?

That would be like saying for every Carson Palmer or Peyton Manning I can name you guys like Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Todd Marijuanavich, Jeff George, David Carr, Tim Couch, Cade McNown, Joey Harrington, Tony Banks and Kerry Collins. Most of them have been over the past 5 years or so and all Top 10 picks or so. I guess you should never draft the highly rated QB in the Top 10 picks or even the first round with all the busts too.

Lets go DT also. Many busts there towards the end of the first round. Probably more then Center. Travis Johnson, Shaun Cody, Jimmy Kennedy, William Joseph, Wendall Bryant, Reggie McGrew, Leon Bender, Rick Terry, Nathan Davis.

That is just a few within the last 8 years or so. All DT's drafted between in the middle 1st to very early 2nd round. That is not even counting high 1st round draft picks. The list would be even longer. Look at all of them busts. I can't believe we would draft a DT with the #32 pick in the draft.

I can go on and on with EVERY position. That arguement holds no water whatsover and is quite funny that the excuse for not drafting the next top Center for the next decade was excusable because of many other first round busts at Center.

[Talk0fNewYork]

Honestly it's time to shut the **** up!

[BillsFever21]

Are the Patriots trying to trade him? Last I heard they had no plans to. They are a contending team that just went out and spent millions on some of the top players in the game. They want and need Samuel for a SB run. We didn't. We wanted him one year for what when we could've traded him? For 7 wins instead of 5 or 6?

So I guess losing out 5 million more a year is no big deal to players that haven't gotten a big payday yet for their standards? Not even counting that they want and love to play football and if they are lucky they might play 10 years. They are just going to wanna give away years of playing plus millions along with it.

Say Clements sits out for 20 games over two seasons. He lost over a years worth of playing, lost about 10 more million dollars and will also not be on the top of his game WHEN he does reach Free Agency. He will have lost even more money.

They know they are not going to win the battle. How many players sat out 10 games that was franchised? There has never been one player. It will not happen. Whether they play that year or not they are still going to be waiting for their huge payday. Why lose another 5-10 million plus over a years worth of playing off your career and also be off the top of your game after only playing 12 games in two season which means you will have defeated the purpose and will make even less when you do have the chance because you are not the player you once were at that time.


When a guy can make $500K a game and can still earn $3M by missing all of the off-season, training camp, pre-season, and 10 games of the regular season, it makes it a bit easier to contemplate sitting-out. And again, NO ONE was going to trade for Clements after his dismal 2005 season, and seeing as how no one is trading for Samuel, Clements likely wouldn't have been traded again this off-season.

As for concussions, they're a completely different animal than traditional injuries.

[Goobylal]

Again the Bills had a greater need at DT since they signed Fowler to play center and dumped Fat Sam (after dumping Fat Pat the year before) and missing-out on adding DT Ryan Pickett. And I wouldn't put Mangold in the HOF just yet.

As history has shown, the Pats are always willing to listen to trade offers, while the Bills no doubt did last year and found no one to trade with them, because Clements was coming-off a bad year. Spin it any way you want, it's the truth. And Clements' first half of last year was equally bad, and what saved him was his finish. Again it's doubtful he gets traded for a 1st round pick PLUS $9M a year with $22M in guarantees.

[BillsFever21]

Again the Bills had a greater need at DT since they signed Fowler to play center and dumped Fat Sam (after dumping Fat Pat the year before) and missing-out on adding DT Ryan Pickett. And I wouldn't put Mangold in the HOF just yet.

As history has shown, the Pats are always willing to listen to trade offers, while the Bills no doubt did last year and found no one to trade with them, because Clements was coming-off a bad year. Spin it any way you want, it's the truth. And Clements' first half of last year was equally bad, and what saved him was his finish. Again it's doubtful he gets traded for a 1st round pick PLUS $9M a year with $22M in guarantees.

You really are living in a fantasy world. Marv said from the start that he wanted to keep Nate around last year. Tried to negotiate a contract but low balled him. He would've loved to keep him if Nate would've played dirt cheap.

Just because a player is franchised doesn't mean they have to give a first round pick. Funny the rest of the NFL doesn't think he is bad or just had a few good games. I highly doubt any team is going to give somebody 9 million a year for a few good games over the last two years. Unless of course you are Marv and then you give people with 12.5 career sacks 6 million a year. Obviously somebody else thought otherwise about Nate's talent on the field.

And if Nate was so bad like you're claiming(probably because he isn't a Bills anymore) then wouldn't that be a slap on Marv for franchising him and paying him as a Top 5 CB in the NFL for around 7.5 million dollars? If what you are dreaming is true and he was so bad that nobody would even think about trading for him then what would that say for Marv for thinking he was worthy of a franchise tag that paid him as a Top 5 CB. If he was just so obviously bad like said then why would Marv even bother with it? If he wanted to try and fool a team into trading for him and nobody wanted him then why didn't Marv just let him leave as a FA after that? Why would he pay 7.5 million for such an awful player that absolutely nobody wanted to trade for?

Either way you try and spin it for your own fantasy Marv would look bad. He either screwed us out of a draft pick for a very wanted player or he believed Nate was worth Top 5 money when we were already on a savings binge even though he was so terrible like you think. Either way then Marv made a bad deal for us.

As far as the Mangold for McCargo pick what did Melvin Fowler do who was a backup for 4 years except for playing time when somebody was injured for a few week be the one to stop you from drafting a top level Pro Bowl stud Center like Mangold? That would be like saying we don't need to draft a LB because we have Coy Wire.

Fowler still isn't very good and our line would've been pretty good with Mangold in the middle. Just by signing a body doesn't mean they are a great player or you don't need any other help.

How was McCargo even a big need? We gave Tripplett 20 million to play the same position. So basically we passed on a future Pro Bowl Center who would've been a huge upgrade to Fowler because having a backup DT to Larry Tripplet was such a huge need?

What is worse is the Jets were the ones to reep the rewards for another blunder by Marv. We end up with a lame footed average backup DT and they end up with what will be one of the best Centers in football. A guy who stepped in from day one as a rookie and was playing like a seasoned vet and twice as good as Fowler.

[Goobylal]

Clements' 2005 was bad. But he'd played well in the past. I think Levy franchised him in the hopes that a) he could find someone to pony-up a high pick for him, or b) if that didn't happen, he could see during the 2006 season whether Clements was worth giving a big money deal. To that end, and with Clements probably threatening to holdout for 10 games in 2006, or at least missing all of the OTA's, mini-camps, training camp, and pre-season, and coming in just before the start of the season, which would have rendered him useless, he agreed to NOT franchise him this year. Well no one traded for him last year (they attempted to trade him to the Bucs for McFarland, but they didn't bite) and he didn't do anything this past season to justify giving him what the 49'ers gave him. And remember that the Redskins were supposedly high on Clements, but they let the 49'ers have him (when's the last time the Redskins let a guy they wanted get away?). And we went through this before with Jonas Jennings and that turned-out alright.

As for McCargo-Mangold, you need AT LEAST 2 DT's. Tripplett is but one DT. Hence the need for another DT, preferrably a high-round one. And Fowler in his first 4 years started 23 games. Whether it was due to injury or not is immaterial. The Bills obviously saw something in him that they liked and made them move away from drafting a player at a high-risk of failing position. And again as I said, let's not prepare Mangold's HOF bust, or McCargo's epitaph, just yet.

[patmoran2006]

Honestly it's time to shut the **** up!
Way to add typical, brilliant insight.

Why would people STFU. This is a message board, one that invites opinions on top of that.

If you want Kool Aid all the time, go hang out with Chris Brown and join the BB.com message board.

Get a clue.

[Bling]

The Giants were going to take McCargo before the Bills traded-up in front of them. They admitted as much last year.

Good thing they didn't. Kiwanuka is a B-E-A-S-T. McCargo... well, we'll see...

[Wally The Barber]

Which Nate Clemments did we lose? The 2006 above average non-pro bowl player or the unbelievably poor 2005 under achiever. To be paid that kind of money you better be consistant. A 49er blunder. Most fans wanted him wavied after the 2005 season!

The Darwin Walker deal was about dumping salaries, Marv is a winner either way!

Poz was simply the best player available and a Steal in the 2nd round, consider yourself lucky and move on!

Any GM that would risk a 2nd rounder for Takeo Spikes after a serious injury will find himself in the laundry room in Cleveland washing jerseys.

I think you need to trust your grandfather more.:sailor:

[HHURRICANE]

Which Nate Clemments did we lose? The 2006 above average non-pro bowl player or the unbelievably poor 2005 under achiever. To be paid that kind of money you better be consistant. A 49er blunder. Most fans wanted him wavied after the 2005 season!

The Darwin Walker deal was about dumping salaries, Marv is a winner either way!

Poz was simply the best player available and a Steal in the 2nd round, consider yourself lucky and move on!

Any GM that would risk a 2nd rounder for Takeo Spikes after a serious injury will find himself in the laundry room in Cleveland washing jerseys.

I think you need to trust your grandfather more.:sailor:

Wally, welcome to the board. To the above:

1) I didn't think we should have resigned Clements. But he was tradeable until Marv promised not to franchise tag him again. That's not smart.

2) If you don't sign Walker than you traded Spikes for a 6th rounder next year. Was he worth more than a 6th rounder?

3) Whether you like it or not it is fair to wonder if poz would have been there without giving up a pick. But I'll will say this isn't that big an issue if the kid plays well.

[Goobylal]

1) Read my post above (#70).

2) Getting a 6th rounder for a guy you were going to release anyway (think Holcomb) is a good move IMHO. It's not like teams were going to beat down the Bills' door to trade for him, given his age, injury status, and demand to be traded.

3) The Bills had Poz rated just below Lynch +/- Revis. To them it was worth trading a high 3rd to get him. Now it's up to Poz to justify it.