Position-by-position side-by-side '07 to '08 Bills roster comparison

[yordad]

I decided to try and do a side by side comparison of last years roster to this years projected roster (here (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=155784)) (not the complete roster, just key players). I'm trying to illustrate where I see specific improvements and show some incremental improvements (I can't remember which board member came up with that phrase, feel free to claim it). You would see even more incremental improvements if I did the entire team. But, I think 35ish players deep is good enough.

Now, I am trying to limit my assessment to the position alone. Like we all know Schobel will produce more with Stroud next to him, but did he get better? I doubt it.




This year------ Last year ------Assessment-Explaination
------------------------------------------------------------------

Edwards ---- Edwards/JP------- Better- Well, I think JP is better, but I think TE will improve. Production should increase though, better coaching, better surrounding talent. And, if he stays healthy, the consistency shouldn't hurt.
Jackson ----- A-train------ Better- I thought then, and I think even more now, that Jackson is a much better compliment to Lynch
Lynch ------ Lynch----- Better- No longer a rookie. Pass blocking should be better. Route running. And we should utilize all his talents more (passing game).
Barnes ------ Neufield/Gaines------ Incomplete- I don't know what to expect, or even if we will use him. I suppose if we went three wide every play w no FB it would be an improvement though.
Schouman ------ Everett ------Even- Both showed promise. Niether has done anything yet.
Parrish ------ Parrish/Aiken----- Better- Parrish is better then Aiken.
Reed ----- Reed/Parrish----- Better- Reed is better then Parrish.
Hardy ----- Price/Reed------ Better- Yep, I am assuming this will be a significant upgrade.
Evans ------ Evans------ Even- Production should be better due to the increased surrounding talent, but he has always been good. Although I could say better because he is hitting his prime.
Royal ----- Royal ---------Even- I think he has reached a plateau.
Walker ------Walker -----Better- More comfortable, gelled, and coming into his prime.
Butler ------ Butler------- Better- Second year as a starter, could be elite.
Fowler ---- Fowler----- Even- I want to say better because of gelling, but I really don't think he will be any better.
Dockery ------ Dockery ------Better- More comfortable, gelled, and coming into his prime.
Peters ------ Peters ------Better- Entering only his second full year as LT. Sky is the limit.
McGee ------ McGee------ Even- McGee should make more plays, because he can afford to take more chances with better surrounding talent, but I don't think he will just "get better".
Greer ------ Webster/Thomas/Youboty/Greer------ Better- Greer is better then those guys. And he is experienced now. No longer a "rookie".
McKelvin ------ Thomas/Youboty/Greer------ Better- Kind of just assuming here, but it is probably a unanimous assumption.
James ------ Youboty/Greer ------Better- Well if our new #4 bumps our old #3 (Youboty) down to #5 then he must be better.
Kelsey ------Kelsey/Denney------ Better- Kelsey is better then Denney.
Schobel ------ Schobel------ Even- Better surrounding talent equals more production, not necessarily a better player.
Denney ------ Denney/Hargrove (?)------ Better- I guess Denney is better then anyone who replaced him while he was injured.
Ellis ------ Hargrove/Neill (?)------ Even- Not really sure here. Hargrove missed four games with suspension and never really produced much, but I don't want to assume Ellis will produce.
Stroud ------ Williams------ Better- Could be "massively" better.
Williams ------ Tripplet------ Better- Tripplett sucked, Williams is improving.
McCargo ------ McCargo------ Better- McCargo is improving.
Johnson ------ Jefferson ------Better- I'm not really going out on a huge limb here.
Crowell ------ Crowell ------Even- He's a stud.
Poz ------ Poz/Digi------ Better- Guns don't kill people. Poz kills people.
Mitchell ------ Ellison/Wire ------Better- No brainer.
Digi ------ Digi/Wire ------Better- Digi has more experience now. He provides good depth.
Ellison ------Haggan------ Better- Well, I guess if he started over Haggan, he must be better.
Whitner ------ Whitner------ Better- Experienced. Taking on leadership role. Ready for the breakout year.
Simpson ------ Simpson/Leonhard/Wilson ------Better- Simpson back healthy should be a huge boost to the secondary.
Wilson ------ Leonhard/Wilson------ Better- Wilson no longer a "rookie" DB.


Now, I'm going off my sometimes faulty memory here, did I miss anyone? I left off Al Wallace because he was injured in preseason. And, I don't remember exactly who got snaps as the rotational LDE while Denney or Kelsey was injured; was it Hargrove? Wasn't he suspended during some of that? And, when Hargrove was suspended, who rotated with Schobel, Neill?


Conclusion: I don't think many, if any, positions will be worst off, and almost all will be better.


Opinion?

[Mitchy moo]

This is actually a awesome breakdown and looks to be a fair glimpse as to what we have, thanks for the read.

[yordad]

This is actually a awesome breakdown and looks to be a fair glimpse as to what we have, thanks for the read.E- yes. Thank you Skoobs! I was bored at work. And, I ain't the fastest typist, so it took some time. I've been "waiting" hours for a reply. And to top it off, it was a complimentary one!

I appreciate it.

[hydro]

This further proves the fact that we look great on paper :D. Lets hope we don't get bit with the injury bug again because we definitely will be better team.

[Scumbag College]

It is a pretty thorough breakdown. You can see how Marv and now this regime has really improved this team through the draft and developing the younger players, as well as getting starters via free agency and trade to fill in the gaps.

[SquishDaFish]

:clap:

[raphael120]

You forgot to mention the key issues and question marks with this team.

Jauron, Schonert, and Fewell.

None of them have proven anything. None of them have proven they know how to manage a game or call the right plays at the right times. None of them have proven they know how to utilize their talent on their roster.

I honestly think that if we have a crap year again, we can blame it primarily on coaching. Wouldn't you? If we supposively have gotten better at every position and we only improve 1 or 2 games, i'd say that's a colossal failure.

[yordad]

You forgot to mention the key issues and question marks with this team.

Jauron, Schonert, and Fewell.

None of them have proven anything. None of them have proven they know how to manage a game or call the right plays at the right times. None of them have proven they know how to utilize their talent on their roster.

I honestly think that if we have a crap year again, we can blame it primarily on coaching. Wouldn't you? If we supposively have gotten better at every position and we only improve 1 or 2 games, i'd say that's a colossal failure.Your right. Honestly, if we miss the playoffs, a part of me will want heads rollin.

But, the other part of me will think that another switch at the helm will only make our return to the post season even longer.

I guess we aren't the only talented team out there. That 5th and 6th spot looks like it is between us, the Steelers/Browns, the Titans, and the Broncos. I know the season hasn't exactly started yet, but that is how I see it. The Colts, Pats, Charges, and Jags seem even more talented then our talented team.

Maybe we just over achieved last year. :idunno:

Deep down, I know DJ isn't the best game manager, but Schonert could make a world of difference. And, I know confidence is only half the battle, but Schonert doesn't seem like he is bluffing. He has said more of what I want to hear in one offseason, heck his first interview, then I seen or heard from Fairchild his entire tenure.

Now that you pointed out what I didn't mention, what do you think of what I did? DO you feel these things are likely? How do you feel about my assessment? And, I know some of my questions were kind of specific, and hard to remember, but do you remember how that DE worked early in the season?

[Mr. Pink]

A very homeristic breakdown..let me inject some realism...

Trent vs Trent/JP....Worse. If Trent stumbles at all this year, Losman will clamour either publicly or privately that he should be on the field. And, yes, Edwards will stumble so it's more a when not an if. Young QBs have growing pains. Yes, I'm optimistic about Edwards but not if the team plays musical QBs...AGAIN.

RBs we're about even....Let's hope Lynch's off-field issues don't distract him on and as much as the A-train sucked. He did provide some leadership and blocking abilities in the backfield. Jackson being utilized more with be a plus and hopefully Dwayne Wright never touches the ball.

FB? If we use one it'll be an improvement in and of itself.

OLine? Same...still have a huge weak link in the center which is cause for major concern. And then obviously the Peters situation. Depending on how long his holdout lasts depends on if we improve marginally or regress at this position. Also is Langston Walker the guy we saw last year or the guy two years ago in Oakland? Question marks abound at this area.

WRs...Evans and a rookie + scrubs this year vs Evans and scrubs last year. Call it a push now. If Hardy performs we improved, if Hardy has a hard time adjusting it's the same old crap. And having a 4 million dollar 4th wide is plain old bad business. Don't care how good of a returner Parrish is...good returners are a dime a dozen in this league now.

TE...We got junk here...still. Royal? Garbage. Schouman? Garbage. Teyo Johnson? Athletic Garbage. What's that smell like? Manure.

DL...On paper, this is our area of greatest improvement. If Stroud is as good as advertised we're pretty solid here. It would be nice if McCargo can stay healthy though.

LB...We get to deal with POZ's growing pains and learning the MLB position. Remember defensively we improved after he went down. The learning curve at the position is great, lets hope he learned a little by watching.

Corners...eh? Still not happy with Toast McGee as the number 1. McKelvin can make this area improved though. Will James doesn't impress me, he just doesn't suck as bad as Youboty.

Safety? Don't like either guy partically much. Donte was overrated at ohio state and apparently thinks we're playoff bound. Anyone remember last time someone on our defense tooted their own horns? Exactly. And KO Simpson is now a 3rd year "rookie" basically.

Kicker SOLID Punter ALL PRO

there's a position by position breakdown as opposed to just guy vs guy.

[raphael120]

All I've got to say is that the people who think that Edwards will be shaky in his second year and won't help us out much, those people should also realize we'll be shaky with Hardy, McKelvin, Poz, and Simpson. All of those guys are either rookies or practically still rookies.

[yordad]

A very homeristic breakdown..let me inject some realism... I think you mean pessimism

Trent vs Trent/JP....Worse. If Trent stumbles at all this year, Losman will clamour either publicly or privately that he should be on the field. And, yes, Edwards will stumble so it's more a when not an if. Young QBs have growing pains. Yes, I'm optimistic about Edwards but not if the team plays musical QBs...AGAIN. So, how is that worst again? Your saying the same situation as last year with a better Edwards is worst? Sounds slightly better, doesn't it? And that is the grim look.

RBs we're about even....Let's hope Lynch's off-field issues don't distract him on and as much as the A-train sucked. He did provide some leadership and blocking abilities in the backfield. Jackson being utilized more with be a plus and hopefully Dwayne Wright never touches the ball. Lynch got a traffic ticket. You say Jackson is a plus, and you say A-train sucked. A-train who is now gone, sucked. Lynch was a rookie last year and he was awesome. You say you shouldn't expect rookies to contribute much, implying they get better their second year. This again sound positive.
FB? If we use one it'll be an improvement in and of itself. Highfive

OLine? Same...still have a huge weak link in the center which is cause for major concern. And then obviously the Peters situation. Depending on how long his holdout lasts depends on if we improve marginally or regress at this position. Also is Langston Walker the guy we saw last year or the guy two years ago in Oakland? Question marks abound at this area. Entering their second full year together, how could they not be better then they were entering their first year? How is giving young guys more experience a bad thing? These things don't turn a crappy line into all pros, but they can make average run blockers better then average.

WRs...Evans and a rookie + scrubs this year vs Evans and scrubs last year. Call it a push now. If Hardy performs we improved, if Hardy has a hard time adjusting it's the same old crap. And having a 4 million dollar 4th wide is plain old bad business. Don't care how good of a returner Parrish is...good returners are a dime a dozen in this league now. I really don't understand your logic here. We are worst off because last years starter will now be a #3? And now our #4 is making too much money? No matter what our #3 and #4 receiver make in money, they aren't gonna get worst. And, Hardy would never touch the field if he wasn't gonna make this group better. So, you are basically trying to tell me no rookie wide receiver will play a down. Realism?

TE...We got junk here...still. Royal? Garbage. Schouman? Garbage. Teyo Johnson? Athletic Garbage. What's that smell like? Manure. We don't even have Teyo anymore man. But you are probably right here. Nothing changed, but that is what I said.

DL...On paper, this is our area of greatest improvement. If Stroud is as good as advertised we're pretty solid here. It would be nice if McCargo can stay healthy though. Highfive

LB...We get to deal with POZ's growing pains and learning the MLB position. Remember defensively we improved after he went down. The learning curve at the position is great, lets hope he learned a little by watching. Poz's first two NFL games he posted 22 tackes. 11 per game. 11 X 16 = 176. Patrick Willis led the NFL last tear with 174. If Poz starts over Digi (no brainer) then the position has been improved. If Digi starts over Poz then position has still been improved because Digi will obviously he would be better after gaining last years experience.

Corners...eh? Still not happy with Toast McGee as the number 1. McKelvin can make this area improved though. Will James doesn't impress me, he just doesn't suck as bad as Youboty. So, your saying we are better this year.

Safety? Don't like either guy partically much. Donte was overrated at ohio state and apparently thinks we're playoff bound. Anyone remember last time someone on our defense tooted their own horns? Exactly. And KO Simpson is now a 3rd year "rookie" basically. Just becasue you don't like our young safeties doesn't mean they didn't improve while gaining experience.

Kicker SOLID Punter ALL PRO Yeah, I didn't even mention our sweet kicker/punter.

there's a position by position breakdown as opposed to just guy vs guy.I appreciate your reply. But, it sounds like you agreed with me through most, but somehow came to a different conclusion.

[yordad]

All I've got to say is that the people who think that Edwards will be shaky in his second year and won't help us out much, those people should also realize we'll be shaky with Hardy, McKelvin, Poz, and Simpson. All of those guys are either rookies or practically still rookies.If you want to call it "shaky", fine. All that means is we were worst then shaky last year, and still average, IMHO.

[feelthepain]

How can you presume better or worse before even one camp? I think to call every position better or even is a bit homerish. Obviously there will be improvements, but there will also be declines. So to say everything is even or better just isn't a fair analysis. It's more wishful thinking then realistic.

[yordad]

How can you presume better or worse before even one camp? I think to call every position better or even is a bit homerish. Obviously there will be improvements, but there will also be declines. So to say everything is even or better just isn't a fair analysis. It's more wishful thinking then realistic.OK, who is on the decline?

[John Doe]

How can you presume better or worse before even one camp? I think to call every position better or even is a bit homerish. Obviously there will be improvements, but there will also be declines. So to say everything is even or better just isn't a fair analysis. It's more wishful thinking then realistic.

At this time of year, almost every fan of every team projects whether their team has improved on paper. It’s a fact of life and that is really all of what Yourdad has done in his post. If people have a problem with the analysis then they should create their own such as that presented by FunTimesYaY! I side with Yourdad – it seems to me that his analysis makes more sense because it is, for the most part, based on the logical assumption that young players get better, and the Bills have a lot of young players entering their 2<SUP>nd</SUP> and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> years. This is a highly motivated hard-working group – intangibles that were stressed by Levy when they were drafted. It reinforces the thought that they will improve. I think that, at this early stage, it is not logical to assume that guys like Whitner, Edwards, Simpson, McCargo, Williams, Peters, Lynch, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Butler</st1:place></st1:City>, Wright, Jackson, Digiorgio, and Poz will regress barring injury.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Of course there are unforeseen variables and contingencies that may not pan out. There is the argument that guys like <st1:City><st1:place>Walker</st1:place></st1:City> will revert to previous levels that were deemed inferior by some posters. There does not seem to be a cogent reason for this considering that <st1:City><st1:place>Walker</st1:place></st1:City> is in his prime and that this assumption of previous poor play may not even be accurate. After all, the Bills thought his play was pretty good in prior years and that is the reason that he was given a big contract in first place.
<o:p></o:p>
Also, players may become injured again. Last season the list seemed endless and a few of the ones left standing that were not on injured reserved played with injuries that normally would have sidelined them. Guys like Kelsay and Royal needed operations during the season but chose to play through. Maybe the same guys that were hurt last year get hurt again – it could happen but I don’t think that the odds are that it will. A lot of posters were projecting McCargo to be a constant injury problem and labeled him a bust. Now he looks quite promising.
<o:p></o:p>
At this point, it is much more speculative to consider which players will play worse than to project which ones should improve given that young motivated players usually do improve. If choosing to not address that facet of the game is a flaw in Yourdad’s analysis, then so be it, but this was an exercise on paper and was not presented to be anything else.

[feelthepain]

OK, who is on the decline?
I don't know, for starters,

Fowler, Butler and Walker: The Bills have had one of the worst offenses in the league for a few years now they scored the fewest points in the league in 07. After all the money spent to make the line better. I'm not the only one who thinks the Bills needs work on the right side of the line from the center over. Peters is also in a contract dispute and that could have a huge impact on the rest of the line.

Evans: he has just one 1000 yard season in his career, he is not an Edwards fan and he's made no bones about that. He's got plenty of talent, but that isn't always enough.

Hardy: He may be a very good player, but better then a veteran WR? Hard to say, WR's don't usually light it up right out of the gate. Will he be better then Reed or Parrish? Do you even know where Hardy will start or be lined up? No, there hasn't even been a camp yet.

Edwards: Could he improve? Sure he could! Could he go backwards? Sure he could! I'm not really sure where you see a definate improvement other then it's his second year. There is no real history to base an improvement or failure from. You could look at many factors and determine many things. His TD/int's was not good his completion % was hardly stellar. But for a rookie his W/L record wasn't awful. It all depends on your ability to be fair in the evaluation. If you want to see him succeed then you'll tend to ignore the numbers and base an opinion off hope rather then fact.

The Bills TE's in general: Not exactly a awsome group. This group should have been upgraded much more then it was this off season. Trent is young and does have talent, but it would serve him and Lynch much better the have a talneted set of TE. The Bills did draft a TE but he was hardly at the top of anyones wish list.

McKelvin: He isn't hurting for talent or speed and could upgrade an already impressive ST unit in Buffalo, but he's done nothing at this level, so to call him an improvement before he's even signed, is quite a stretch.

Whitner: Is a huge question mark, not imporvement. Being so young and showing his youth by making bold predictions for a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 10 years. Buffalo isn't coming off a good season. I think Whiter is a question mark at best.

Stroud: "Could be massively better"? Could also be worse. He has not been a probowler in years. He had drug and injury issues the last two season. He's very talented, but there are a lot of very talented players that just can't seem to make the impact you think they should or can't sustain the level for their whole careers.

There has to be a reason a team like the Jags who are always a very stout on defense would give up a player Bill fans consider a "HUGE TALENT" for next to nothing. Sorry, but a 3rd and 5th are hardly a lot for a guy Bill fans seem to think will step in and shut down teams offenses. Obviously if Jacksonville was willing to part with him for so little there's more to his story then everyone knows. Remember Jacksonville gave up on Leftwhich, now it's Stroud.

I think rather then giving players and even or better grade, many need a "?". If you're going to do a fair and unbias evaluation.

[John Doe]

I don't know, for starters,

Fowler, Butler and Walker: The Bills have had one of the worst offenses in the league for a few years now they scored the fewest points in the league in 07. After all the money spent to make the line better. I'm not the only one who thinks the Bills needs work on the right side of the line from the center over. Peters is also in a contract dispute and that could have a huge impact on the rest of the line.

This looks more like a general critique of the Bills than a comparative analysis.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The only thing that makes much of an argument is the Peters hold-out – it may or may not happen. If he joins the team and does not give up $millions to hold out, then it is a non-issue. It seems unlikely to happen. As for the rest of the line, Dockery and <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Walker</st1:place></st1:City> are in their prime and Brad Butler was fairly solid last season. There is reason to think that he will improve: he is a young motivated player. There is reason to think that the line as a whole will improve if Peters returns: continuity and the maturation of <st1:City><st1:place>Butler</st1:place></st1:City>.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>


Evans: he has just one 1000 yard season in his career, he is not an Edwards fan and he's made no bones about that. He's got plenty of talent, but that isn't always enough.

You have not offered a reason why Evans will regress – only a general critique. Remember, this is a comparative analysis. There is no recorded quote that I know of whereby Evans expressed a dislike of Edwards. He was disappointed that Losman was replaced, but all indications are that he is over it. He has stated that he wants his contract extended. That would indicate that he has no problem with Edwards. He may not dramatically improve his stats, but it seems logical that with stability at QB he will improve some over last season. Then, there is the addition of Hardy that should help him as well. <o:p></o:p>



Hardy: He may be a very good player, but better then a veteran WR? Hard to say, WR's don't usually light it up right out of the gate. Will he be better then Reed or Parrish? Do you even know where Hardy will start or be lined up? No, there hasn't even been a camp yet.

It is logical to assume that Hardy will be more effective than Sam Aiken, the player that he actually replaces (1 catch for 10 yards), even though Aiken was a veteran.<o:p></o:p>
He does not have to set the league on fire to do that. Remember, this is a comparative analysis.<o:p></o:p>



Edwards: Could he improve? Sure he could! Could he go backwards? Sure he could! I'm not really sure where you see a definate improvement other then it's his second year. There is no real history to base an improvement or failure from. You could look at many factors and determine many things. His TD/int's was not good his completion % was hardly stellar. But for a rookie his W/L record wasn't awful. It all depends on your ability to be fair in the evaluation. If you want to see him succeed then you'll tend to ignore the numbers and base an opinion off hope rather then fact.


You have not supplied a reason why Edwards will not improve – only a general critique. There are plenty of reasons why he should improve including improved strength, a year’s worth of experience, and the expectation that he will get the bulk of the reps in practice this year. Considering that there is no particular reason as to why he should play worse, these reasons seem sufficient. Do you feel the same way about Beck? Don’t you think that it is logical that he will improve from his rookie year?<o:p></o:p>



The Bills TE's in general: Not exactly a awsome group. This group should have been upgraded much more then it was this off season. Trent is young and does have talent, but it would serve him and Lynch much better the have a talneted set of TE. The Bills did draft a TE but he was hardly at the top of anyones wish list.

Your comments on the tight ends are a general critique, not a comparative analysis. There may not be much improvement, but there does not appear to be much of a regression either.



McKelvin: He isn't hurting for talent or speed and could upgrade an already impressive ST unit in Buffalo, but he's done nothing at this level, so to call him an improvement before he's even signed, is quite a stretch.

There was close to a consensus amongst the talent evaluators regarding McKevin as the premier cornerback in the draft. I think that it is logical to believe that he will add something rather than nothing to the cornerback situation in <st1:City><st1:place>Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City>. Do you have the same opinion of the Dolphins' first round pick? He is as unproven as McKelvin therefore he should not be considered to be an improvement to the Dophins' offensive line? <o:p></o:p>




Whitner: Is a huge question mark, not imporvement. Being so young and showing his youth by making bold predictions for a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 10 years. Buffalo isn't coming off a good season. I think Whiter is a question mark at best.


You have not posted any reason in particular as to why Whitner will not improve – only a general critique. He is physically talented and highly motivated. Why should he be expected to stagnate or regress?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>



Stroud: "Could be massively better"? Could also be worse. He has not been a probowler in years. He had drug and injury issues the last two season. He's very talented, but there are a lot of very talented players that just can't seem to make the impact you think they should or can't sustain the level for their whole careers.

There has to be a reason a team like the Jags who are always a very stout on defense would give up a player Bill fans consider a "HUGE TALENT" for next to nothing. Sorry, but a 3rd and 5th are hardly a lot for a guy Bill fans seem to think will step in and shut down teams offenses. Obviously if Jacksonville was willing to part with him for so little there's more to his story then everyone knows. Remember Jacksonville gave up on Leftwhich, now it's Stroud.



<o:p>Stroud is a question mark in a lot of minds – there is no doubt about that. During the mini-camp he looked physically sound. Perhaps there was some unknown reason why the Jags let him go, but the situation does not seem to be the same as that of Leftwich – a player who was never an all-pro. Stroud had a very high cap number with the Jags – they could have been trying to clear cap space for all we know. Last year the Raiders let Randy Moss go for even less. Even if Stroud does not regain all-pro status, he could improve the Bills line significantly. <o:p></o:p>
</o:p><o:p></o:p>



I think rather then giving players and even or better grade, many need a "?". If you're going to do a fair and unbias evaluation.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>If Yourdad's analysis is biased one way, then your own could well be biased in the opposite direction. </o:p>

[TigerJ]

Nothing much I would disagree with in that breakdown. As far as the offensive line is concerned, I think the only significant indiidual improvement is what we can expect from Butler's development. The whole unit should improve simply by virtue of working with each other that much more. Butler's improvement will help Walker and Fowler function more effectively even if they don't show much if any individual increases in ability/technique. Of course, any offensive line comments presume that Peters and the Bills reach some kind of agreement that gets him into training camp well before the regualr season.

[feelthepain]

This looks more like a general critique of the Bills than a comparative analysis.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The only thing that makes much of an argument is the Peters hold-out – it may or may not happen. If he joins the team and does not give up $millions to hold out, then it is a non-issue. It seems unlikely to happen. As for the rest of the line, Dockery and <st1:city><st1:place>Walker</st1:place></st1:city> are in their prime and Brad Butler was fairly solid last season. There is reason to think that he will improve: he is a young motivated player. There is reason to think that the line as a whole will improve if Peters returns: continuity and the maturation of <st1:city><st1:place>Butler</st1:place></st1:city>.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

You have not offered a reason why Evans will regress – only a general critique. Remember, this is a comparative analysis. There is no recorded quote that I know of whereby Evans expressed a dislike of Edwards. He was disappointed that Losman was replaced, but all indications are that he is over it. He has stated that he wants his contract extended. That would indicate that he has no problem with Edwards. He may not dramatically improve his stats, but it seems logical that with stability at QB he will improve some over last season. Then, there is the addition of Hardy that should help him as well. <o:p></o:p>


It is logical to assume that Hardy will be more effective than Sam Aiken, the player that he actually replaces (1 catch for 10 yards), even though Aiken was a veteran.<o:p></o:p>
He does not have to set the league on fire to do that. Remember, this is a comparative analysis.<o:p></o:p>



You have not supplied a reason why Edwards will not improve – only a general critique. There are plenty of reasons why he should improve including improved strength, a year’s worth of experience, and the expectation that he will get the bulk of the reps in practice this year. Considering that there is no particular reason as to why he should play worse, these reasons seem sufficient. Do you feel the same way about Beck? Don’t you think that it is logical that he will improve from his rookie year?<o:p></o:p>



Your comments on the tight ends are a general critique, not a comparative analysis. There may not be much improvement, but there does not appear to be much of a regression either.


There was close to a consensus amongst the talent evaluators regarding McKevin as the premier cornerback in the draft. I think that it is logical to believe that he will add something rather than nothing to the cornerback situation in <st1:city><st1:place>Buffalo</st1:place></st1:city>. Do you have the same opinion of the Dolphins' first round pick? He is as unproven as McKelvin therefore he should not be considered to be an improvement to the Dophins' offensive line? <o:p></o:p>





You have not posted any reason in particular as to why Whitner will not improve – only a general critique. He is physically talented and highly motivated. Why should he be expected to stagnate or regress?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>



<o:p>Stroud is a question mark in a lot of minds – there is no doubt about that. During the mini-camp he looked physically sound. Perhaps there was some unknown reason why the Jags let him go, but the situation does not seem to be the same as that of Leftwich – a player who was never an all-pro. Stroud had a very high cap number with the Jags – they could have been trying to clear cap space for all we know. Last year the Raiders let Randy Moss go for even less. Even if Stroud does not regain all-pro status, he could improve the Bills line significantly. <o:p></o:p>
</o:p><o:p></o:p>


<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>If Yourdad's analysis is biased one way, then your own could well be biased in the opposite direction. </o:p>
Your theme is "general critique", that's all any of this is. The end result is,

A) Improvement

B) The same

D) Decline

It's the indivisduals opinion whether it's A, B or C. Fact is relative, even Bill fans can't agree on Fact here, so that's a non issue here and it's yet to be determined as there hasn't been a camp yet.

My opinion is just that, an opinion. Thinking a player is a "?" is neither A, B or C. Like I said it's to soon to grade any position, but if some are gonna do it, then you can't call every position an improvement or even if they haven't even had a camp yet. McKelvin isn't even signed yet, who knows when he will sign. Stroud is a question mark based on recent history and a new team and scheme...last I checked the Jags didn't run the Tampa 2. As for the TE I don't need to prove why they aren't an improvement or won't be, there's no history to support they will improve. The Bills would clearly benefit from improved play from that unit, not just the same play. I think the rest of the evaluations I counterd are spot on and neither prove success or failure. Just an argument that they could be worse or at the very least a "?".

[John Doe]

Your theme is "general critique", that's all any of this is. The end result is,

A) Improvement

B) The same

D) Decline

It's the indivisduals opinion whether it's A, B or C. Fact is relative, even Bill fans can't agree on Fact here, so that's a non issue here and it's yet to be determined as there hasn't been a camp yet.

My opinion is just that, an opinion. Thinking a player is a "?" is neither A, B or C. Like I said it's to soon to grade any position, but if some are gonna do it, then you can't call every position an improvement or even if they haven't even had a camp yet. McKelvin isn't even signed yet, who knows when he will sign. Stroud is a question mark based on recent history and a new team and scheme...last I checked the Jags didn't run the Tampa 2. As for the TE I don't need to prove why they aren't an improvement or won't be, there's no history to support they will improve. The Bills would clearly benefit from improved play from that unit, not just the same play. I think the rest of the evaluations I counterd are spot on and neither prove success or failure. Just an argument that they could be worse or at the very least a "?".

As far as football fans are concerned, it's never too soon to speculate on whether the team has improved or not - that is where the fun of the message board is. It is what most of the posts in the off-season deal with. Take that away and the off-season around here is pretty boring.

Now, to follow up...

Is it reasonable to think that McKelvin will hold out indefinately? He well could, but it is more reasonable to think that he will sign since most players do. That is my opinion but it sure seems reasonable.

Could Stroud be a bust? Could he compeltely fail just because of the "Cover 2?" Maybe, maybe not. Stroud has played his entire career in a 4-man front - a basic feature of the cover-2. I don't see this as any issue at all - just my opinion. If there are a lot of examples of former all-pro defensive tackles being completely confused and ineffective by going from one 4-man defensive front system to another, then I don't know about them. Give us some examples of that happening in the past and your opinion will seem more credible.

As for the tight end position, every team would benefit from improved play there. Is it too soon to speculate about whether the Bill have improved there? No, not on a message board. I can't think of a good reason why we should not speculate.

Yourdad provided an opinion and he did not state it as fact. He compared last year's talent to this year's - it sure beats the endless Jp vs. Edwards threads. Is is biased to believe such an opinion? Time will tell. There are plenty of posters on this board who are Bills fans and they feel that the Bills will be terrible. Does that make them more objective?

In my opinion, Yourdad's opinion is as well supported as your own - maybe more so.

[feelthepain]

As far as football fans are concerned, it's never too soon to speculate on whether the team has improved or not - that is where the fun of the message board is. It is what most of the posts in the off-season deal with. Take that away and the off-season around here is pretty boring.

Now, to follow up...

Is it reasonable to think that McKelvin will hold out indefinately? He well could, but it is more reasonable to think that he will sign since most players do. That is my opinion but it sure seems reasonable.

Could Stroud be a bust? Could he compeltely fail just because of the "Cover 2?" Maybe, maybe not. Stroud has played his entire career in a 4-man front - a basic feature of the cover-2. I don't see this as any issue at all - just my opinion. If there are a lot of examples of former all-pro defensive tackles being completely confused and ineffective by going from one 4-man defensive front system to another, then I don't know about them. Give us some examples of that happening in the past and your opinion will seem more credible.

As for the tight end position, every team would benefit from improved play there. Is it too soon to speculate about whether the Bill have improved there? No, not on a message board. I can't think of a good reason why we should not speculate.

Yourdad provided an opinion and he did not state it as fact. He compared last year's talent to this year's - it sure beats the endless Jp vs. Edwards threads. Is is biased to believe such an opinion? Time will tell. There are plenty of posters on this board who are Bills fans and they feel that the Bills will be terrible. Does that make them more objective?

In my opinion, Yourdad's opinion is as well supported as your own - maybe more so.
I agree with what you're saying, but that goes both ways. You can speculate success, but you can also speculate failure. I think refusing to find fault with one player is way over the top especially from a team that hasn't seen 500. since MM and hasn't made the playoffs since Wade Phillips.

Lets be reasonable, being the 30th ranked offense and the 31st ranked defense is a more then reasonable argument for any positive grade a fan can put on any position. Does it mean players won't improve? No, not by any stretch. Just remember much of what you read about the imporvements is based on players coming back off injury, well the Bills were the exact same team in 06 as they were in 07, without the injuries.

I honestly think If Bill fans want to do evaluations it should be on their coaching staff, cause that's where the imporvement, same play or decline will come from, not the players. Obvioulsy talent matters and the more talent you have the better you are theoretically, but coaching and the ability to get the most of the talent you have is clearly on the coaching staff, not the talent or loss of talent due to injury.

Look at the Gaints and Pats, the Gaints weren't as talented as the Pats, but they beat them cause the Giants used the talent they had more efficiently then the Pats during the SB. Coaching is what will get the Bills to the playoffs, not the players.

[yordad]

feelthepain, I think your post are delusional.

John Doe, you da man!

[justasportsfan]

I agree with what you're saying, but that goes both ways. You can speculate success, but you can also speculate failure. .
I agree. When it comes to the fins however, you can speculate failure is more realistic than success.

[yordad]

I agree. When it comes to the fins however, you can speculate failure is more realistic than success.I agree too. But, what is the main factor in decline? Age? Motivation? Neither of which looks to be a factor with Buffalo.

I asked him to name players he feels are on the decline. And, the only declining I could find was himself declining to answer.

As Doe pointed out, FTP keeps trying to assess (critique) but not do a comparitive assessment. Bills '06 to Bills '07.

[justasportsfan]

I agree too. But, what is the main factor in decline? Age? Motivation? Neither of which looks to be a factor with Buffalo
I asked him to name players he feels are on the decline. And, the only declining I could find was himself declining to answer.

As Doe pointed out, FTP keeps trying to assess (critique) but not do a comparitive assessment. Bills '06 to Bills '07.

it's not critique on FTP's part. When you ctritique , you have to be objective. It's all wishful thinking that the bills will suck when he posts.

[feelthepain]

I agree too. But, what is the main factor in decline? Age? Motivation? Neither of which looks to be a factor with Buffalo.

Well coming from the fan of a team that has had far more failures then successes, Bill fans should know!


As Doe pointed out, FTP keeps trying to assess (critique) but not do a comparitive assessment. Bills '06 to Bills '07

I think since there is no history of pro bowl type of players on the Bills roster outside one or 2 alternates. That's all the argument I need to base my opinion on. That is a far more reasonable evalution of future success then HOPE which is all the original post was based on. I love how Bill fans give their players credit yet the credit isn't earned. I don't know where this talent is, cause they can't seem to win a lot of games or make pro bowls. Afetr all players like Manning and Brady are probowlers and Edwards and Losman aren't!!

[justasportsfan]

I love how Bill fans give their players credit yet the credit isn't earned. :rofl: coming from someone who said that the fins were better than the bills the last couple of years :coocoo:

[Yasgur's Farm]

FTP... Ted Ginn Jr.

[feelthepain]

FTP... Ted Ginn Jr.

....has a ton of talent!!

[John Doe]

....has a ton of talent!!

I agree. Ginn is a motivated physical talent who is bound to improve - just like the young Bills players.

[feelthepain]

I agree. Ginn is a motivated physical talent who is bound to improve - just like the young Bills players.

We'll see.

[yordad]

We'll see.Why does Ginn get "likely to improve", but every Bill gets "will suck forever"?

Not to mention, you haven't named one player specifically on the Bills that you think is on their decline.

[feelthepain]

Why does Ginn get "likely to improve", but every Bill gets "will suck forever"?

Not to mention, you haven't named one player specifically on the Bills that you think is on their decline.


Where did I say Ted Ginn is "likely to improve", and where did I say the Bills "will suck forever"?

[yordad]

Where did I say Ted Ginn is "likely to improve", and where did I say the Bills "will suck forever"?So... are you saying you don't think Ginn will improve, or are you talking in circles?

And, thanks for ignoring my other question for the third time.

[yordad]

Oh, I thought you guys might like this Dick Jauron quote (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=6218), ""I like our aggressiveness and our tempo. We're also a year older. We believe we have a good offensive line. We think we'll be an even better offensive line this season. Our running back situation we believe is improved. Our wide receiver situation is improved and our quarterback with Trent coming in as the starter, I think he's really had a good offseason. So we're very hopeful, but we've got to win more than seven games to make us happy. A lot of good things have to happen for us, but we're excited about the prospects.""

[jamze132]

Oh, I thought you guys might like this Dick Jauron quote (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=6218), ""I like our aggressiveness and our tempo. We're also a year older. We believe we have a good offensive line. We think we'll be an even better offensive line this season. Our running back situation we believe is improved. Our wide receiver situation is improved and our quarterback with Trent coming in as the starter, I think he's really had a good offseason. So we're very hopeful, but we've got to win more than seven games to make us happy. A lot of good things have to happen for us, but we're excited about the prospects.""
I guess FTP would say that Dick isn't being objective...

[jamze132]

I would like to hear FTPs argument for the Bills NOT being better than they were last year. Then I would like to hear FTPs argument for the Dolphins NOT being better than last year... since we are talking "objectively".