Schopp and the Bulldog....

[THATHURMANATOR]

What idiots these two are. After a great Bills win I am driving home and all I hear from these dolts is them whining about scoring that last TD.

I get there point about it initially but it was a topic they should have brought up for a moment and not harped on and on and on about it. The callers, the listeners, NO ONE wanted to hear it. IT WASN'T A BIG DEAL.....

Schopp was acting like he was holier than thou saying he has to much "Class" to not kneel down... Maybe he should focus on his "tennis" matches he seems to love so much as football seems too viscious for him.

Bulldog in his stuttering ramblings agreed with Schopp like he always does.

I understand they need to get ratings but this harping on and on was an embarrassment.

[RockStar36]

I usually don't take much stock into what I hear on WGR but that little bit I heard after the game disgusted me.

It was a classic case on focusing on negative things instead of just enjoying a win for once.

[DMBcrew36]

I don't care if Schopp & Bulldog want to think that we should've taken a knee. I disagree, especially after Miami slapped us around in the 1st game. But the WGR guys obviously are allowed their own opinions - fine. But it gets really old when they go ONNNN and ONNNN and ONNNN and ONNNN for 2 straight hours with the same stupid arguments. Even when Jerry Sullivan came on they just kept harping on it overrr and overr and overr. I normally love listening to Jerry Sullivan, but I shut it off in disgust. Change the f***king topic for christ's sake - there is so much more you can talk about. You don't have to talk about the same damn thing for the entire Buffalo Bills portion of the show.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I usually don't take much stock into what I hear on WGR but that little bit I heard after the game disgusted me.

It was a classic case on focusing on negative things instead of just enjoying a win for once.
It was a Joke.

Schopp's point that he doesn't care if they win is misguided as well. We want to win every game. You don't want to build a losing culture(or continue to build one in this franchise's case)

[SABURZFAN]

i like that they didn't kneel down. i hope it carries the O's confidence going into the next game and for the rest of the season.

[yordad]

Aren't points scored one of the playoff tie breakers? Not that they are going to make the playoffs, but still.

[THATHURMANATOR]

i like that they didn't kneel down. i hope it carries the O's confidence going into the next game and for the rest of the season.
I personally like that as well but do understand their point to some degree.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

I used to like schopp but now think he is an arrogant ass. he constantly insults callers and acts like his opiion is better then anyone elses.

dont listen to him too often anymore

[BlackMetalNinja]

I figured out a while ago that they only have one goal, and that is to disagree with anybody that calls... ever. Driving back from Charlotte after the Panthers game we listened pretty much the whole way home. It was humorous to count how many times they contradicted themselves throughout the show, just for the sake of being dicks to whoever was on the phone.

[trapezeus]

the way the bills have played this season, score the points. if they have been beating teams handily all season and survived a close game and then piled it on the end, maybe it's classless. but we've been in this slump for 10 years.

The bills could pretty much do the "last boy scout" running play at this point and I'd defend it as "we've gone through so much the last 10 years. this is a fair."

[HAMMER]

They are nearly unlistenable, they want to lose, they are losers.

[ratso]

Since when am I supposed to worry about running up the score against the Miami Dolphins? If Schopp and Bulldog dont know about the history between these two teams then they need to turn in their self proclaimed Buffalo born and bred badges. What next? Should we let up when we are beating the Canadiens Thursday night as not to hurt their feelings? You have got to be kidding me. Even if you dont know that everyone in Buffalo keeps a Marino picture in the middle of their dart board, you must have a short memory when lard ass ran it down our throat with all of his starters in the fourth quarter when we went down to that cess pool last month. Idiots

[hydro]

Since when am I supposed to worry about running up the score against the Miami Dolphins? If Schopp and Bulldog dont know about the history between these two teams then they need to turn in their self proclaimed Buffalo born and bred badges. What next? Should we let up when we are beating the Canadiens Thursday night as not to hurt their feelings? You have got to be kidding me. Even if you dont know that everyone in Buffalo keeps a Marino picture in the middle of their dart board, you must have a short memory when lard ass ran it down our throat with all of his starters in the fourth quarter when we went down to that cess pool last month. Idiots

Well Bulldog is a buffalo guy and is a fan of the team but Schoop is neither. He actually is way less of a fan of the NFL than you think. He is a huge baseball nut first.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well Bulldog is a buffalo guy and is a fan of the team but Schoop is neither. He actually is way less of a fan of the NFL than you think. He is a huge baseball nut first.
Schopp is born in WNY Charles. He isn't a Bills fan though.

[TigerJ]

I thought the first time I heard that from those guys it was weak. Everyone they talked to the next couple days (I heard them ask Thurman Thomas and Rob Ray about that on Monday) and they both thought the notion was stupid (that Fitz should have taken the knee. Had Fitz thrown the ball on that las drive, I would have thought that was unnecessary and not to bright, but they ran the ball on every play. I was a classic run the time out strategy. Don't blame the Bills that Miami had given up and couldn't stop simple and obvious running plays. That was not the last Bills possession. Remember, Miami did get the ball one last time and promptly turned it ove. On their last possession, Fitzpatrick did kneel down, as he should have done at that point.

I know I'm generally not quite as hard of Schopp as some here are, but that was one of his more stupid rants.

[chernobylwraiths]

Schopp is born in WNY Charles. He isn't a Bills fan though.

He's a Leaf's fan as well. So, that tells me he liked being that guy that didn't like the home team. (though he does say he likes the Sabres)

I disagree with their points a lot, but I listen to them a lot too because I think their show is pretty funny, especially with Greg Bouck (sp?). Schopp rubs me the wrong way too sometimes but I like his sense of humor.

[Typ0]

I've got to disagree with the posts here quite vehemantly. We had a first down with less than 1.5 minutes on the clock. Miami had no timeouts hence no way to stop the clock from running out. The right decision is to take a knee and run the clock out. In fact, running a play is downright moronic in that situation and they should have talked about it until the cows came home how stupid it was. If FJ puts that ball on the ground and it's returned for a TD the score is 24-21 with over a minute to go and Miami kicking off. They get an onsides kick and they are granted a chance to win the game. So basically, running a play gives them a chance to win the game while taking a knee there is no chance they can win. There is no arguement only an idiot would think they should have scored there. Sorry guys.

[bigbub2352]

Schopp and Bulldog do nothing but regurgtate info from Sully and other beat reporters, they treat callers like idiots, and hang up on them most of the time so they can talk over them
there show sucks, but we have no choice typical buffalo scenario

[RockStar36]

I loved it.

Miami was calling timeouts which to me signaled that they were still playing the game, hence the Bills continued to run the ball. Running up the score would've been throwing the ball into the end zone like New England does.

I generally don't mind their show, even if I disagree, but this argument was unbearable.

[chernobylwraiths]

I've got to disagree with the posts here quite vehemantly. We had a first down with less than 1.5 minutes on the clock. Miami had no timeouts hence no way to stop the clock from running out. The right decision is to take a knee and run the clock out. In fact, running a play is downright moronic in that situation and they should have talked about it until the cows came home how stupid it was. If FJ puts that ball on the ground and it's returned for a TD the score is 24-21 with over a minute to go and Miami kicking off. They get an onsides kick and they are granted a chance to win the game. So basically, running a play gives them a chance to win the game while taking a knee there is no chance they can win. There is no arguement only an idiot would think they should have scored there. Sorry guys.

What posts are you reading? Most here have said it was probably dumb to not run out the clock, but they liked the decision. Some even agreed with Schopp's point, but didn't like that he harped on it like it was the worst decision in the world.

[Typ0]

What posts are you reading? Most here have said it was probably dumb to not run out the clock, but they liked the decision. Some even agreed with Schopp's point, but didn't like that he harped on it like it was the worst decision in the world.

right, they just want to mention it in passing...but it was a horrible decision and should have been harped on IMO. If you people want to relish a win by ignoring such stupidity as this it's certainly your perogative. It was not a matter of "maybe they should not have done that" it was a matter of this decision/play call is indicitive of the person making the decisions being incompetent. If that had been DJ some of these same people would be calling for his head the same way they do when they "don't agree with the look" on someones face. This is the same type of stupidity that has cost us important games in the past...

[DynaPaul]

I don't know if I'd consider the last TD "running up the score". We just wanted to get the clock down and make sure there were no more last minute collapses. It's not like we were pounding them 59 - 0 like some other classless team who shall not be named.

[chernobylwraiths]

I've got to disagree with the posts here quite vehemantly. We had a first down with less than 1.5 minutes on the clock. Miami had no timeouts hence no way to stop the clock from running out. The right decision is to take a knee and run the clock out. In fact, running a play is downright moronic in that situation and they should have talked about it until the cows came home how stupid it was. If FJ puts that ball on the ground and it's returned for a TD the score is 24-21 with over a minute to go and Miami kicking off. They get an onsides kick and they are granted a chance to win the game. So basically, running a play gives them a chance to win the game while taking a knee there is no chance they can win. There is no arguement only an idiot would think they should have scored there. Sorry guys.

By the way, this is completely wrong. I just checked the play by play and Miami called their last timeout the play before the last touchdown.

[Typ0]

By the way, this is completely wrong. I just checked the play by play and Miami called their last timeout the play before the last touchdown.

and the previous play was ran for a first down to the 7 yard line of Miami...and then Miami called their last timeout. So we had a first and goal and Miami had no timeouts left. You are completely wrong.

[RockStar36]

Uh oh, looks like we upset Schopp's brother.

[Typ0]

Uh oh, looks like we upset Schopp's brother.


right, I'm the guys brother because people with blinders on because of ONE WIN against a CRAPPY TEAM want to ignore reality.

[chernobylwraiths]

and the previous play was ran for a first down to the 7 yard line of Miami...and then Miami called their last timeout. So we had a first and goal and Miami had no timeouts left. You are completely wrong.

Let me again say, "NOBODY IS SAYING IT WAS A GREAT CALL, IT'S JUST THAT IT WASN'T THE END OF THE WORLD!!!"

So, where am I wrong again?

[chernobylwraiths]

right, I'm the guys brother because people with blinders on because of ONE WIN against a CRAPPY TEAM want to ignore reality.

I don't see anyone making superbowl reservations. It's just too bad people are actually happy with a Buffalo win. It must be because of the Christ... I mean Xmas season.

[trapezeus]

it kinda seemed like the bills WERE trying to run out the clock. it wasn't their fault that running up the middle kept getting 10 yards a carry. They weren't exactly pulling a pete carroll. They were up 10 and running over and over up the middle. aside from taking a knee with the other team in possession of their time outs, i'm not sure what more conservative call you could make.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I've got to disagree with the posts here quite vehemantly. We had a first down with less than 1.5 minutes on the clock. Miami had no timeouts hence no way to stop the clock from running out. The right decision is to take a knee and run the clock out. In fact, running a play is downright moronic in that situation and they should have talked about it until the cows came home how stupid it was. If FJ puts that ball on the ground and it's returned for a TD the score is 24-21 with over a minute to go and Miami kicking off. They get an onsides kick and they are granted a chance to win the game. So basically, running a play gives them a chance to win the game while taking a knee there is no chance they can win. There is no arguement only an idiot would think they should have scored there. Sorry guys.
WTF are you even talking about? Did you not read this thread and just hit your "disagree" button on your computer that shoots out a generic response?

I understand they should have knelt the ball down. I think we all do.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Uh oh, looks like we upset Schopp's brother.
TYPO Schopp..... :puke:

[YardRat]

GR just flat-out sucks donkey balls.

They will always focus on the negative, no matter what.

It's not like AVP was throwing the ball...Schopp and the Bulldog can eat ****.

[HAMMER]

This guy TypO just likes to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. What a miserable way to live.

[JD]

Voted #1 for sports radio in the nation I believe.. Schopp isn't even a Bills fan so I take his football conversations with a grain of salt. They cover the Sabres well even though they're funded by them so they basically have to.

[Typ0]

I"m taking issue with the double standards. It's either a bad call or isn't. PF is either a bad coach because of a call like this or DJ wasn't a bad coach because of a call like this either. It's the what have you done for me lately knee jerk reaction fans have in Buffalo that is sickening. Like it or not, in the big picture this kind of thing is indicative of incompetence and a win against a crappy team should not overshadow that. But people want to say we won so it wasn't a big deal. Well this type of crap is what results in losses and failure to succeed in the long run and people should be in uproars over it.

[Typ0]

Voted #1 for sports radio in the nation I believe.. Schopp isn't even a Bills fan so I take his football conversations with a grain of salt. They cover the Sabres well even though they're funded by them so they basically have to.


Honestly, I'm surprised they don't just give up and leave WNY with zero sports radio stations. Since the people here are their likely target audience and they knit pick them so much (and in this case they are being knit picked very unjustly) why even bother? And then they are calling me over critical and a hater. Talk about stupidity. SFU and enjoy having the radio station and someting focused on Buffalo sports...when they screw up they aren't taking your money and they aren't causing your favorite team to be a mockery and disgrace.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Your argument Typo is for a different thread.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Honestly, I'm surprised they don't just give up and leave WNY with zero sports radio stations. Since the people here are their likely target audience and they knit pick them so much (and in this case they are being knit picked very unjustly) why even bother? And then they are calling me over critical and a hater. Talk about stupidity.
1230 am has Brad riter who is MUCH better IMO.

[Typ0]

Your argument Typo is for a different thread.


Not really. You didn't like the focus of their show and are wining and complaining about it. No one got hurt and there were no losers because of it. I didn't like a horrible stupid call on the field that points to incompetence, people's money being wasted and the team being losers. If we had lost that game the attitude would be completely different. You must have liked something about the show you were listening weren't you? I dont' agree with those guys a lot but I don't come take up internet space knit picking them about it. They have a job to do and they are opinionated people.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Not really. You didn't like the focus of their show and are wining and complaining about it. No one got hurt and there were no losers because of it. I didn't like a horrible stupid call on the field that points to incompetence, people's money being wasted and the team being losers. If we had lost that game the attitude would be completely different. You must have liked something about the show you were listening weren't you? I dont' agree with those guys a lot but I don't come take up internet space knit picking them about it. They have a job to do and they are opinionated people.
REALLY

[Typ0]

1230 am has Brad riter who is MUCH better IMO.


but that is not a sports talk station with 24/7 sports coverage.

[Dr. Pepper]

Not really. You didn't like the focus of their show and are wining and complaining about it. No one got hurt and there were no losers because of it. I didn't like a horrible stupid call on the field that points to incompetence, people's money being wasted and the team being losers. If we had lost that game the attitude would be completely different. You must have liked something about the show you were listening weren't you? I dont' agree with those guys a lot but I don't come take up internet space knit picking them about it. They have a job to do and they are opinionated people.

holy **** are you really wasting your whole day defending Shmuck and The Stutter-dog? Get a life dude... :roflmao:

[Typ0]

holy **** are you really wasting your whole day defending Shmuck and The Stutter-dog? Get a life dude... :roflmao:


I know. It's not like I don't have other things to do. I must be nuts.

[Dr. Pepper]

I know. It's not like I don't have other things to do. I must be nuts.

no worries, it happens to me too. this one time i wasted 4 whole years watching a dick jauron coached football team.... now that was nuts.

[Typ0]

no worries, it happens to me too. this one time i wasted 4 whole years watching a dick jauron coached football team.... now that was nuts.

I hear ya. This place is addicting.

[HAMMER]

Fewell is trying to create a new, more aggressive, winning culture. I think he was trying to send a message to his own team more than anything. When you have been averaging 15 points a game forever it's good to let the dogs out when the opportunity is there. It's not like he was at our 40 yard line and throwing a bomb to TO again. I hope that if the opportunity arises again on Thursday vs. the Jets he handles it the same way.

[DMBcrew36]

First, Schopp & Bulldog rip Jauron & Co cause they're pansies and the team plays like Jauron coaches - like pansies. So we then have a guy who comes in (Fewell) and coaches aggressively and wants to kick Dolphin ass (after they smoked us earlier this season), and Schopp & Bulldog complain that he's too aggressive and we shouldn't taken a knee.

You can't have it both ways, you hypocritical tools. Apparently any jacka** with a microphone is allowed to spew crap across the airwaves. Normally I enjoy their show but jesus f**k they're dumb sometimes. And they went ONNNN and ONNNN about it.

[HAMMER]

First, Schopp & Bulldog rip Jauron & Co cause they're pansies and the team plays like Jauron coaches - like pansies. So we then have a guy who comes in (Fewell) and coaches aggressively and wants to kick Dolphin ass (after they smoked us earlier this season), and Schopp & Bulldog complain that he's too aggressive and we shouldn't taken a knee.

You can't have it both ways, you hypocritical tools. Apparently any jacka** with a microphone is allowed to spew crap across the airwaves. Normally I enjoy their show but jesus f**k they're dumb sometimes. And they went ONNNN and ONNNN about it.

I have listened to them about ten times over the last few years, every time they make me cringe. It is unreal that they have jobs still. Coach Sal should be looking to move in.

[DMBcrew36]

I have listened to them about ten times over the last few years, every time they make me cringe. It is unreal that they have jobs still. Coach Sal should be looking to move in.

I was just driving home from work (4:10-4:35). They were talking about ****ing Tetris for half my ride home before I shut it off and plugged my iPod in.

[tampabay25690]

They are lucky they are the only sports station in Buffalo....
They are GOD AWFUL.
I listen once in a while online on wgr55.com and I can't even listen more then 2 minutes.
I called a few weeks ago and they didnt even let me finish and hung up....
I can talk on ESPN radion out of TAMPA more about the BILLS then I can on my home town station that is SAD......

[Ground Chuck]

I thought they should have kneeled as well UNTIL MIAMI CALLED THE TIME OUTS. Then I said F them. Pound it in.

[Coach Sal]

If you are looking for an alternative, I really ask that you give my show a try.

Obviously, you have to be around a computer to see or hear it, but I do a live postgame show after every game, on top of the normal Tuesday night at 9pm show.

After this past Sunday's game, we had over 300 viewers live online. Sometimes we get over 500 after road games when more people are home.

I took calls from Watertown, New Jersey, Buffalo, Nevada, North Carolina, and North Dakota on recent shows.

It's totally interactive - not only between you and me, but between you and each other, as well, via a live chat box as the show is running.

Again, I ask you just give it a try. If you like it, I'll see you again. If not, thanks for trying it out anyway. We had a lot of fun Sunday celebrating the Bills win!!

HERE IS SUNDAY'S POSTGAME SHOW!

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If you are having any trouble with this embedded show, click here:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2674436

[tampabay25690]

If you are looking for an alternative, I really ask that you give my show a try.

Obviously, you have to be around a computer to see or hear it, but I do a live postgame show after every game, on top of the normal Tuesday night at 9pm show.

After this past Sunday's game, we had over 300 viewers live online. Sometimes we get over 500 after road games when more people are home.

I took calls from Watertown, New Jersey, Buffalo, Nevada, North Carolina, and North Dakota on recent shows.

It's totally interactive - not only between you and me, but between you and each other, as well, via a live chat box as the show is running.

Again, I ask you just give it a try. If you like it, I'll see you again. If not, thanks for trying it out anyway. We had a lot of fun Sunday celebrating the Bills win!!

HERE IS SUNDAY'S POSTGAME SHOW!

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If you are having any trouble with this embedded show, click here:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2674436

Everyone on this site should be on SAL'S show.
You guys all like talking about the BILLS so why not listen its a great show....

[HAMMER]

Everyone on this site should be on SAL'S show.
You guys all like talking about the BILLS so why not listen its a great show....

I will jump in on his Tuesday show next week. After the Bills games I am usually still in our Bills Bar out here watching the Chargers or other late games. Besides the fact that it is unlikely I would be able to coherently converse after drinking to excess for four + hours.

[Novacane]

Running plays up the middle are almost the same as kneeling if the other team is trying. If Miami's D had not just quit on the game there would have been no touchdown. They deserved to be scored on for quitting. Schoop and BD need to find something legitimate to ***** about.

[Typ0]

Running plays up the middle are almost the same as kneeling if the other team is trying. If Miami's D had not just quit on the game there would have been no touchdown. They deserved to be scored on for quitting. Schoop and BD need to find something legitimate to ***** about.


how many more fumbles happen on plays ran up the middle compared to taking a knee? That was their point. A fumble could have turned a guranteed win into a loss and is the type of thing we have been *****ing about for years. What they kept saying was nothings changed and it's just more of the same. What people seemed to be hearing was just the gripe about the play call but they were really talking at lengthts about the unhealthy "what have you done for me lately" attitude of the fan base.

[THATHURMANATOR]

how many more fumbles happen on plays ran up the middle compared to taking a knee? That was their point. A fumble could have turned a guranteed win into a loss and is the type of thing we have been *****ing about for years. What they kept saying was nothings changed and it's just more of the same. What people seemed to be hearing was just the gripe about the play call but they were really talking at lengthts about the unhealthy "what have you done for me lately" attitude of the fan base.
Again I think we all agree that kneeling would have been a better idea. Some of us are fine with rubbing it in Miami's Face(which could have easily backfired on the Bills). The whole point of this thread was that Schopp and the Lapdog made this their whole focus to their post game show and the following days show. To completely bash the team, the coach and the fans who weren't on their side was RIDICULOUS....

[HAMMER]

It's REDICULOUS Thurm.

[Typ0]

The whole point of this thread was that Schopp and the Lapdog made this their whole focus to their post game show and the following days show.


Again, it was not the focus of their show. The focus of their show was evidence of more of the same and bad game day coaching choices. The focus of their show was that PF should not be considered for the head coaching position based on the team winning a game. They also were talking about the ups and downs of the sport in general and how the team performed well under DJ at times. They were articulating their discontent if someone like PF will be taking that job again. It's just that this was a key piece of evidence to support their theory.

[HAMMER]

They do nothing but complain, like so many of the negative nancies around this joint.

[jmb1099]

some of you guys are missing the emotional element that existed during that game. The fins crushed us in the first outing and it looked like that was going to be the case at the beginning of the second half of this game. The fin defense had began shutting down the offense and it looked like we were going to lay down and die... again. I am SO sick of the whole lay down and die, no chip on your shoulder attitude that this team has had for a decade. Its almost like the Titans stole our heart with the music city myth. Anyway TO scores and there's a spark of life.... then he mocks Joey Porter and out of no where the attitude returns...finally. So I am glad that we crammed the ball down the fins throats... not for the sake of poor sportsmanship, but because its been so long since we've shown any kind of heart or pride. I liked it and I hope given the opportunity we do the same thing to the Jets.

[Coach Sal]

Once again I just want to remind everyone that I will be doing a postgame show after tonight's game.

I know it's late and I know you'll be weary.... :)

But come by, win or lose, and listen to the commentary from me, and get involved in the live chat/discussion with other Bills fans as the show is going on.

Hope to see you there:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/buffalo-bills-now

[Typ0]

some of you guys are missing the emotional element that existed during that game. The fins crushed us in the first outing and it looked like that was going to be the case at the beginning of the second half of this game. The fin defense had began shutting down the offense and it looked like we were going to lay down and die... again. I am SO sick of the whole lay down and die, no chip on your shoulder attitude that this team has had for a decade. Its almost like the Titans stole our heart with the music city myth. Anyway TO scores and there's a spark of life.... then he mocks Joey Porter and out of no where the attitude returns...finally. So I am glad that we crammed the ball down the fins throats... not for the sake of poor sportsmanship, but because its been so long since we've shown any kind of heart or pride. I liked it and I hope given the opportunity we do the same thing to the Jets.


I think you are missing that the team has had that emotional element but been unable to maintain it. Even in week one of this year they played lights out but lost and it was deflating. That is the character of this team not the "what have you done for me lately" win last week. I predict a loss tonight and an ugly one at that.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think you are missing that the team has had that emotional element but been unable to maintain it. Even in week one of this year they played lights out but lost and it was deflating. That is the character of this team not the "what have you done for me lately" win last week. I predict a loss tonight and an ugly one at that.
NEGATIVE NANCY.

[Typ0]

NEGATIVE NANCY.

I'm negative because I recognize this team is up and down and more down than up? That's rediculous. You must be one of those people who stands in the rain claiming it's a nice sunny day because you don't know how to analyze anything.

[HAMMER]

What a miserable puke.

[Typ0]

What a miserable puke.

Blind ignorant jackass.

[jmb1099]

good call... props

I think you are missing that the team has had that emotional element but been unable to maintain it. Even in week one of this year they played lights out but lost and it was deflating. That is the character of this team not the "what have you done for me lately" win last week. I predict a loss tonight and an ugly one at that.

[Typ0]

it's not like I enjoy being right about that but it's happened far too much to think it's not going to happen again.