Question about the love for Grimm

[don137]

I was listening to Sal's show last night and he was asking for the approval rating for potential coaches of the Bills.

It made me wonder afterwards the love affair for Grimm. Iwondered is he successful because he is good and brings out the best in his players or is successful because surrounded by very good talent.

The reason I thought about it is because when Warner is not in there for Arizona that offense looks just as bad as Buffalo's offense. When Leinart has been in there when Warner has been injured that offense has looked very pedestrian much like Buffalo's offense.

So is Grimm good and if hired as head coach would make Buffalo better or just surrounded by good talent? I am truly not sure myself.

[Luisito23]

Grimm is another unknown guy, but for some mysterious reason he is loved like a woman around here. I'm still baffled by it because he's nothing special like some here claim, and I really hope he's not the next coach.

[chernobylwraiths]

Here is my reason and it may not be sound, but it is mine. Grimm was an offensive lineman and knows what it takes to be a good offensive lineman. I also perceive that since he was an offensive lineman, he would think that a good team starts on the lines on both sides of the ball. As a coordinator, he doesn't have control over the guys he gets and still has to answer to the coach on the offensive style he has to play. Lastly, being a former offensive lineman, I actually like the fact that he knows his players limitations in his offense as well as the talent that he has is more geared towards the pass. I want a coach that will pick players that he likes AND can coach a player and use their talents instead of trying to fit a guy in and hope he can do what you want him to do. IMO, a good coach knows the people he wants, their style, but can still adapt when a player has special talent.

[Nighthawk]

Here is my reason and it may not be sound, but it is mine. Grimm was an offensive lineman and knows what it takes to be a good offensive lineman. I also perceive that since he was an offensive lineman, he would think that a good team starts on the lines on both sides of the ball. As a coordinator, he doesn't have control over the guys he gets and still has to answer to the coach on the offensive style he has to play. Lastly, being a former offensive lineman, I actually like the fact that he knows his players limitations in his offense as well as the talent that he has is more geared towards the pass. I want a coach that will pick players that he likes AND can coach a player and use their talents instead of trying to fit a guy in and hope he can do what you want him to do. IMO, a good coach knows the people he wants, their style, but can still adapt when a player has special talent.

My problem is that he has never elevated above OL coach...yes, he is the Asst. HC and "run game coordinator", but he has never been in charge of running an offense, let alone an entire team. I don't know, I just don't get the warm and fuzzies about him.

[soapman]

You can't blame the offensive woes on Grimm, he doesn't call plays. For that same reason, you can't really call him a winner. He just coached lineman on teams that have won. But everybody loves him for some reason.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

I say no rookie head coach, it's Cowher or Billick or Bust. No more of these OC or DC getting on the job training on the Bills fans buck!

[DraftBoy]

He has everything everybody has asked for aside from playcalling.

He has rings, has been successful, and is from a winning breed/tree.

If playcalling is that big of a deal to you, then you won't like him, if its not you'll likely like him. One has to ask how much playcalling an HC really does? Fewell and AVP did our play calling last year, Jauron to my knowledge made very little play calling decisions.

[soapman]

It's not just about playcalling, it's game management, time management, 4th down calls, etc. Things he has NO experience doing.

[DraftBoy]

It's not just about playcalling, it's game management, time management, 4th down calls, etc. Things he has NO experience doing.

Not true, he knows about game management and 4th down type calls. He plans and schemes the running game.

It is unknown if he makes the running game calls or not.

Time management, he has no experience doing though.

[patmoran2006]

A lot of people consider him another Tony Sporano, or however you spell that freegin miami coach

[DraftBoy]

A lot of people consider him another Tony Sporano, or however you spell that freegin miami coach

or Harbaugh.

[ddaryl]

If Grimm has never been a Coordinator or a college HC then he has no business being mentioned as a BIlls HC. We can not afford such a roll of the dice on another coordinator let alone someone who hasn't even been a coordinator.

Could he be successful and buck our trend... sure is possible.. but who here wants to roll that dice .. raise your hand..... Not me


Grimm has great sub coordinator experience and success, but I would have to think he is only a candidate for our OC job by the new HC WAY before being considered for a HC vacancy in this league

[psubills62]

Wasn't Grimm in line to get the Steelers HC job before they fell in love with Tomlin?

[chernobylwraiths]

Could he be successful and buck our trend... sure is possible.. but who here wants to roll that dice .. raise your hand..... Not me


If not Cowher or Marty... then :wave:

[DraftBoy]

If Grimm has never been a Coordinator or a college HC then he has no business being mentioned as a BIlls HC. We can not afford such a roll of the dice on another coordinator let alone someone who hasn't even been a coordinator.
Could he be successful and buck our trend... sure is possible.. but who here wants to roll that dice .. raise your hand..... Not me


Grimm has great sub coordinator experience and success, but I would have to think he is only a candidate for our OC job by the new HC WAY before being considered for a HC vacancy in this league

What does the bolded even mean?

Yes we can. The team needs to blown up, and what are we going to do? If the next HC is a bust (regardless of who is hired), we are going to wait 3-5 years, have him get fired and start over again. That's what being a fan is.

If we were close to being a contender Id agree with you, but this team is a joke and the Bills can afford to make mistakes now, not later.

[soapman]

Not true, he knows about game management and 4th down type calls. He plans and schemes the running game.

It is unknown if he makes the running game calls or not.

Time management, he has no experience doing though.

So planning the running scheme during the week has something to do with playcalling and game management on Sunday's?

It's well known that the offensive coordinator calls the plays. He's not going to defer to the "running game coordinator" when it's time to call a run play.

[DraftBoy]

Wasn't Grimm in line to get the Steelers HC job before they fell in love with Tomlin?

It was between Grimm and Wisenhunt till Tomlin came in. Grimm was also in the final two for the Atlanta job as well.

[BidsJr]

Maybe Cowher brings Grimm with him.

[DraftBoy]

So planning the running scheme during the week has something to do with playcalling and game management on Sunday's?

It's well known that the offensive coordinator calls the plays. He's not going to defer to the "running game coordinator" when it's time to call a run play.

Ummm...yes.

You know this because you have intricate knowledge of Arizona's coaching? Im not saying he does, or he does not. But most teams script their first couple of series and unless you know Grimm is not in those meetings help scripting the plays and talking about what to do in certain situations running game wise (which he would be since he is the Asst. HC and Running Game Coord), then saying he doesn't call any plays is a stretch Im not prepared to accept at this time.

And besides all of that, how many plays does the HC call, unless they name themselves the OC as well?

[soapman]

It was between Grimm and Wisenhunt till Tomlin came in. Grimm was also in the final two for the Atlanta job as well.

Obviously he got passed over for a reason.

[soapman]

Ummm...yes.

You know this because you have intricate knowledge of Arizona's coaching? Im not saying he does, or he does not. But most teams script their first couple of series and unless you know Grimm is not in those meetings help scripting the plays and talking about what to do in certain situations running game wise (which he would be since he is the Asst. HC and Running Game Coord), then saying he doesn't call any plays is a stretch Im not prepared to accept at this time.

And besides all of that, how many plays does the HC call, unless they name themselves the OC as well?

Intricate knowledge or common sense? You are talking scripting the first couple plays. That's not the game. That's the FIRST COUPLE PLAYS, 0-0, 1ST AND 10. Where have you EVER heard of anyone but the HC or coordinator calling a single play in game?

Like I said there is much more involved in being a HC then calling plays. Things he has to experience with, period.

[ddaryl]

Maybe Cowher brings Grimm with him.

That has a better chance of fruition then Grimm as a HC IMO

[soapman]

That has a better chance of fruition then Grimm as a HC IMO
God I hope so...

[ddaryl]

If not Cowher or Marty... then :wave:

unfortuantely he just does not have the experience necessary to take a train wreck of a franchise like Buffalo and be succesful. We need an experieced HC who can bring stability here 1st IMO

He needs to progress thru the ranks to OC for a few years before I would even give him an interview for a HC job....

[patmoran2006]

Wasn't Grimm in line to get the Steelers HC job before they fell in love with Tomlin?

he was considered co-favorite with Wisenhunt

[DraftBoy]

Intricate knowledge or common sense? You are talking scripting the first couple plays. That's not the game. That's the FIRST COUPLE PLAYS, 0-0, 1ST AND 10. Where have you EVER heard of anyone but the HC or coordinator calling a single play in game?

Like I said there is much more involved in being a HC then calling plays. Things he has to experience with, period.

ST Coordinator traditionally calls ST plays, along with coverage changes.

Peyton Manning calls his own play as the Colts routinely roll in 5 plays per lineup and he makes the play call at the line.

I mean I can keep going but I think you see my point. And yes these are exception to the rule, I openly admit that and I openly say that Grimm does not possess much (if any) playcalling exp. But those that choose to speak in absolutes are asking to be proven wrong, because they neither posess the knowledge nor are in the situation to speak with such absolutes.

[soapman]

ST Coordinator traditionally calls ST plays, along with coverage changes.

Peyton Manning calls his own play as the Colts routinely roll in 5 plays per lineup and he makes the play call at the line.

I mean I can keep going but I think you see my point. And yes these are exception to the rule, I openly admit that and I openly say that Grimm does not possess much (if any) playcalling exp. But those that choose to speak in absolutes are asking to be proven wrong, because they neither posess the knowledge nor are in the situation to speak with such absolutes.

Did I not say COORDINATOR or HC?

Man you blew my argument wide open with the Peyton Manning call. Damn.

So in other words you lost this battle?

[DraftBoy]

Did I not say COORDINATOR or HC?

Man you blew my argument wide open with the Peyton Manning call. Damn.

So in other words you lost this battle?

:rofl:

Yes, Ken Wisenhunt, I did.

[psubills62]

Obviously he got passed over for a reason.

You could likewise say there are good reasons he was considered for the job to begin with.

[chernobylwraiths]

unfortuantely he just does not have the experience necessary to take a train wreck of a franchise like Buffalo and be succesful. We need an experieced HC who can bring stability here 1st IMO

He needs to progress thru the ranks to OC for a few years before I would even give him an interview for a HC job....

We need an experienced HC who can bring stability here that was made unstable by the firing of our experienced HC?

[chernobylwraiths]

Tony Dungy was passed over for years as well.

[TheBrownBear]

Where do you think all of these great head coaches started? Do you think they were just shot out of their mothers as head coaches?

A better question - In the modern era, how many coaches have taken multiple franchises to the Super Bowl? Answer: 2 (Vermeil and Reeves).

How many "successful" (not counting Belichek or Shanahan since they were busts in their first gigs) head coaches have had more success in their subsequent stops (meaning, after they were widely recognized coaching "stars")? Again, Vermeil and Dungy are the only ones who stand out to me.

Grimm is a guy who it has been reported has been talked about in league circles as a guy that is head coaching material and ready to take the next step. Yes, there is an unknown factor there, just as there always is when a coordinator or assistant takes that next step up. But prior successful head coaching experience didn't do a hell of a lot of good for guys like Denny Green, Buddy Ryan, Ditka, Mariucci, Herm Edwards, etc.

The head coach is a very VERY important part of success, but I think history shows that the most important piece is the front office. Look no further than the Bills history with Polian versus every other bum they've had in there.

[Nighthawk]

We need an experienced HC who can bring stability here that was made unstable by the firing of our experienced HC?

You know that he means a proven winner...stop trying to spin it to make it look better for your arguement. This organization needs somebody to come in here with credibility to stabilize this franchise and make it more attractive to perspective players to come to. He needs to have a philosophy already built and not one that he has to create on the job.

[chernobylwraiths]

A better question - In the modern era, how many coaches have taken multiple franchises to the Super Bowl? Answer: 2 (Vermeil and Reeves).



Parcells

[Philagape]

A better question - In the modern era, how many coaches have taken multiple franchises to the Super Bowl? Answer: 2 (Vermeil and Reeves).

Holmgren

[chernobylwraiths]

You know that he means a proven winner...stop trying to spin it to make it look better for your arguement. This organization needs somebody to come in here with credibility to stabilize this franchise and make it more attractive to perspective players to come to. He needs to have a philosophy already built and not one that he has to create on the job.

Getting a "proven winner" doesn't always work and is usually extremely difficult. I would take Cowher or Marty Schottenheimer and that is it. Don't like Billick. But there have also been PLENTY of first time coaches that have done a pretty good job early in their careers and many have been in the past few years.

[chernobylwraiths]

Holmgren

Damn, I thought there might be another. How about Shula?

[Nighthawk]

Getting a "proven winner" doesn't always work and is usually extremely difficult. I would take Cowher or Marty Schottenheimer and that is it. Don't like Billick. But there have also been PLENTY of first time coaches that have done a pretty good job early in their careers and many have been in the past few years.

Do you HONESTLY have faith in the Bills picking a true, up & coming talent? Seriously? They hire people they know, such as...Brian Schottenhiemer...who would be an awful hire. This is what worries me.

[TheBrownBear]

Holmgren
Hah! Yes. I don't know why I forgot about him since he was at the forefront of my mind when thinking about these guys.

Forgot about Parcells too. Dang that guy's been around the block a few times. I think I forgot about them since they lost in such unmemorable fashion the second time around.

[Nighthawk]

Damn, I thought there might be another. How about Shula?

Question there is he consider Modern Era? I guess he should be...

[DraftBoy]

Do you HONESTLY have faith in the Bills picking a true, up & coming talent? Seriously? They hire people they know, such as...Brian Schottenhiemer...who would be an awful hire. This is what worries me.

I have faith in Nix, outside of that...no.

[Nighthawk]

I have faith in Nix, outside of that...no.

And why do you have so much faith in Nix...because he's a different name? He is a puppet for Wilson...he worked for Ralph back in the 90's and then came back...IMO he is not making the call if he brings in a coordinator. That would signal Ralph still has his hands all over the football operations.

[chernobylwraiths]

Do you HONESTLY have faith in the Bills picking a true, up & coming talent? Seriously? They hire people they know, such as...Brian Schottenhiemer...who would be an awful hire. This is what worries me.

I believe in the "even a blind squirrel finds a nut..." philosophy.

[soapman]

Where do you think all of these great head coaches started? Do you think they were just shot out of their mothers as head coaches?

A better question - In the modern era, how many coaches have taken multiple franchises to the Super Bowl? Answer: 2 (Vermeil and Reeves).

How many "successful" (not counting Belichek or Shanahan since they were busts in their first gigs) head coaches have had more success in their subsequent stops (meaning, after they were widely recognized coaching "stars")? Again, Vermeil and Dungy are the only ones who stand out to me.

Grimm is a guy who it has been reported has been talked about in league circles as a guy that is head coaching material and ready to take the next step. Yes, there is an unknown factor there, just as there always is when a coordinator or assistant takes that next step up. But prior successful head coaching experience didn't do a hell of a lot of good for guys like Denny Green, Buddy Ryan, Ditka, Mariucci, Herm Edwards, etc.

The head coach is a very VERY important part of success, but I think history shows that the most important piece is the front office. Look no further than the Bills history with Polian versus every other bum they've had in there.

To easy. Superbowl winning coaches with no previous HC or coordinator experience: 2. Tom Flores and Mike Ditka. You have to go back 25 years to the last time that happened with Ditka. So all your useless stats are useless. We're not talking about first year coaches. We are talkiing about first year coaches without experience as a coordinator or HC. I'm not saying great coaches are just born, I'm saying they need experience to get there. Who cares what circles around the league say, has anyone in those circles hired him for anything other than an O-Line coach?