Tebow Stock at All Time Low after he bombs in Senior Bowl

[BuffaloBlitz83]

I am on a conference call with Todd McShay, ESPN Scouts Inc. director of college football scouting. He has been outspoken in his belief that Tim Tebow isn’t a top quarterback prospect in the NFL. Here are some of his comments on Tebow, Riley Cooper, and a few other players.

Q: How has Tebow looked at the Senior Bowl, and did he hurt himself by going there?

A: I honestly and I hate to say it because he’s battled. He’s done everything that has been asked of him. I know he hasn’t felt great, (but) he’s gone through every drill. He’s showing improvement getting snaps under center but he’s just not there.

“I thought coming in maybe all the intangibles, showing signs of improvement could help his stock, but I would say it hurt his stock because looking at him and comparing him to other mid-level quarterbacks, it’s not Bradford and Clausen here. It’s Tony Pike, who’s the best of the group and he’s probably going to be a third-round pick. You could make an argument about Tebow as a pocket passer in the NFL, that he was no better than the fourth-best here. He has such a long way to go and he has to accept 1 of 2 things. Either a) he needs to strip down and start over as a passer, or b) he’s going to have to play another position in the NFL.

Q: Drew Brees played mostly shotgun at Purdue, and he’s done well at the NFL. Is too much being made of Tebow not taking snaps under center?

A: It’s not that. He has to learn how to read defenses coverages. It’s not a pre-snap read and a high low read it’s reading from left to right, up and down and the defenders are so much faster in being able to get to one spot to the next. That’s not even including the elongated delivery.

“I’ve never seen a quarterback at an All-Star game like this that had such an obvious delivery issue. I can remember Andre Woodson and that cost him a couple rounds and Tebow is far worse. It’s almost as if he’s coming from one position and moving completely to another.

“I’m not saying it’s impossible for him to do that, but there are so few examples of guys who have been able to make that transition. There’s no developmental league. There’s nowhere for him to go. He’s going to learn playing 5, 7 snaps as a game in the Wildcat and serving as a No. 3 QB. It’s going to be a huge, huge transition for him. It’s hard for met imagine us one day talking about Tim Tebow as a good, starting quarterback full-time for an NFL team.”
------------

Combines is no longer, Just an option for Tebow. He isn't going in first two rounds.

[X-Era]

I am on a conference call with Todd McShay, ESPN Scouts Inc. director of college football scouting. He has been outspoken in his belief that Tim Tebow isn’t a top quarterback prospect in the NFL. Here are some of his comments on Tebow, Riley Cooper, and a few other players.

Q: How has Tebow looked at the Senior Bowl, and did he hurt himself by going there?

A: I honestly and I hate to say it because he’s battled. He’s done everything that has been asked of him. I know he hasn’t felt great, (but) he’s gone through every drill. He’s showing improvement getting snaps under center but he’s just not there.

“I thought coming in maybe all the intangibles, showing signs of improvement could help his stock, but I would say it hurt his stock because looking at him and comparing him to other mid-level quarterbacks, it’s not Bradford and Clausen here. It’s Tony Pike, who’s the best of the group and he’s probably going to be a third-round pick. You could make an argument about Tebow as a pocket passer in the NFL, that he was no better than the fourth-best here. He has such a long way to go and he has to accept 1 of 2 things. Either a) he needs to strip down and start over as a passer, or b) he’s going to have to play another position in the NFL.

Q: Drew Brees played mostly shotgun at Purdue, and he’s done well at the NFL. Is too much being made of Tebow not taking snaps under center?

A: It’s not that. He has to learn how to read defenses coverages. It’s not a pre-snap read and a high low read it’s reading from left to right, up and down and the defenders are so much faster in being able to get to one spot to the next. That’s not even including the elongated delivery.

“I’ve never seen a quarterback at an All-Star game like this that had such an obvious delivery issue. I can remember Andre Woodson and that cost him a couple rounds and Tebow is far worse. It’s almost as if he’s coming from one position and moving completely to another.

“I’m not saying it’s impossible for him to do that, but there are so few examples of guys who have been able to make that transition. There’s no developmental league. There’s nowhere for him to go. He’s going to learn playing 5, 7 snaps as a game in the Wildcat and serving as a No. 3 QB. It’s going to be a huge, huge transition for him. It’s hard for met imagine us one day talking about Tim Tebow as a good, starting quarterback full-time for an NFL team.”
------------

Combines is no longer, Just an option for Tebow. He isn't going in first two rounds.
The writing has been on the wall for this guy for a while now. Without a complete overhaul in the way he throws the ball, he isnt at all likely to make it in the NFL as a QB.

Great person, great leader, but so was Mother Theresa and she didnt have an NFL arm either.

[Ingtar33]

I've been saying this all season.

[X-Era]

I've been saying this all season.

So have many people. :up:

[BidsJr]

Hopefully, we can finally put an end to the madness with this.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

I would not mind Tony Pike in Rd 3

[X-Era]

I would not mind Tony Pike in Rd 3

I think that's about right for him. If he can impress scouts he may sneak into round 2, but I think hes a solid 3rd or later round pick at this point.

[BillsMan80]

I would not mind Tony Pike in Rd 3

Pike is a real marginal prospect at this level. Good height but not very heavy for his size, and has a marginal NFL arm as well. Only game where he faced, quick, physical, atheltic players on defense was against Florida, and he looked lost out there until getting some garbage time TD throws. Big time dropoff in the QB class after Bradford and Clausen. If we can't get one of those two, would much rather take a chance on a guy like Jarrett Brown.

[X-Era]

Pike is a real marginal prospect at this level. Good height but not very heavy for his size, and has a marginal NFL arm as well. Only game where he faced, quick, physical, atheltic players on defense was against Florida, and he looked lost out there until getting some garbage time TD throws. Big time dropoff in the QB class after Bradford and Clausen. If we can't get one of those two, would much rather take a chance on a guy like Jarrett Brown.

Brown has one of the prettiest throws in football IMO, but he made way too many marginal decisions. I'm not sure he can handle the mental aspects of the game.

[better days]

Hopefully, we can finally put an end to the madness with this.

Why, because McShay said so? He never liked Tebow, and he is no talent evaluator. Wait until the game is played Saturday. I will bet Tebow plays well. By the time of the draft Tebow will have made enough progress to make some team like him. Pat White was drafted in the 2nd rnd last year & Tebow is much better than him.

[The Spaz]

Tebow sucks. He was great in college the end...

[better days]

Tebow sucks. He was great in college the end...

That remains to be seen, time will tell.

[PECKERWOOD]

Todd McShay is a ****ing *******, screw that guy.

[BillsWin]

http://www.alligatorarmy.com/2010/1/28/1274121/scouts-rip-apart-tim-tebow

I told people he isn't going to be a starting NFL QB.

Unless the two or three guys before him on the depth chart get hurt.

[better days]

Miami Dolphins HC Tony Sparano Coach of the South in the Senior Bowl was asked about Tebow on NFL Network. He said "I was very impressed with him in the meeting room, he picked things up quickly." "On the field he improved every day. He throws the ball very well in the seam area of the field, much like Chad Pennington."

Mike Lombardi said the other day he will be a 1st rnd pick & after hearing Sparano it sounds like a lock.............Tebow in the 1st.

[Oaf]

Sweet. Now we can get him w/ our third. :ontome:

[BidsJr]

Why, because McShay said so? He never liked Tebow, and he is no talent evaluator. Wait until the game is played Saturday. I will bet Tebow plays well. By the time of the draft Tebow will have made enough progress to make some team like him. Pat White was drafted in the 2nd rnd last year & Tebow is much better than him.


hahahahahahahhahhahahhha

[Philagape]

Mike Lombardi said the other day he will be a 1st rnd pick & after hearing Sparano it sounds like a lock.............Tebow in the 1st.

I really hope so, so that the Bills won't be tempted in the second.

Nix should talk about how much he loves him.

[BILLSROCK1212]

I would not mind Tony Pike in Rd 3
i've read that Pike has looked even worse than Tebow or at least close to it

[better days]

I really hope so, so that the Bills won't be tempted in the second.

Nix should talk about how much he loves him.

Just suppose the Bills draft him in the 1st, maybe after trading down a few spots. Would you trust the judgement of Buddy & Chan? I know I would, & will whoever they draft.

[better days]

i've read that Pike has looked even worse than Tebow or at least close to it

Does that surprise you? Tebow outplayed Pike in the Sugar Bowl by a wide margin. I expect Tebow to have the best game of all the QB's that play on Saturday.

[Stewie]

buy low

tebow in the sixth round.

[naveed]

If we went OL, DL, and LB in the first three rounds, would anyone really be upset if we somehow got Tebow in the 4th? I'd be good with that.

[BILLSROCK1212]

Does that surprise you? Tebow outplayed Pike in the Sugar Bowl by a wide margin. I expect Tebow to have the best game of all the QB's that play on Saturday.
100% agree....I think this mechanics stuff is overrated...whether it takes Tebow one year or 4 years he will make his presence felt around the NFL one day

[better days]

If we went OL, DL, and LB in the first three rounds, would anyone really be upset if we somehow got Tebow in the 4th? I'd be good with that.

I'd be good with buying a mint condition 1960 Corvette for $500. About as likely to happen.

[mark1126]

lol..yeah but Jim Kelly wants him...that should tell you somethign about Kelly's ability to evaluate...according to senor bowl scouts Tebow as long awkward throwing motion, slow release, bad footwork on his drops 3 and 5 step, locks in on receiver, doesnt look off the safeties, tlelgraphs passes allowing CB's to jump the route, slow in progressions, average arm strength, etc...yea he is competitive but so is everyone in the NFL

[hydro]

I'd be good with buying a mint condition 1960 Corvette for $500. About as likely to happen.

Will you be around on draft day? If so it should be even more fun than I anticipated!

[BlackMetalNinja]

It's nice to feel a little vindication seeing a professional say the same things I've mentioned when asked why I think he will not make a good NFL QB. Of course, plenty of people have said those same things besides me. Complete lack of progressions, horrible delivery motion, average accuracy.

[better days]

Will you be around on draft day? If so it should be even more fun than I anticipated!

I expect to be unless something comes up that I have to attend to. The draft starts on Thursday night this year.

[FlyingDutchman]

Just suppose the Bills draft him in the 1st, maybe after trading down a few spots. Would you trust the judgement of Buddy & Chan? I know I would, & will whoever they draft.

if they were to pull such a move like drafting tim tebow in the 1st i would personally drive to buffalo from charlotte to personally whoop the snot out of buddy nix, does that answer your question?

[Philagape]

Just suppose the Bills draft him in the 1st, maybe after trading down a few spots. Would you trust the judgement of Buddy & Chan? I know I would, & will whoever they draft.

I've followed Buffalo too long to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

[DraftBoy]

I expect to be unless something comes up that I have to attend to. The draft starts on Thursday night this year.

Not for Tebow it won't.

[Jan Reimers]

Teams that are pretty much set can take him early. With all of our needs, we just can't afford the risk.

[better days]

Not for Tebow it won't.

Yeah, it will. Watch the game Saturday.

[DraftBoy]

Yeah, it will. Watch the game Saturday.

I will, Ive also watched every practice and read all the reports. I suggest you do the same.

[better days]

I will, Ive also watched every practice and read all the reports. I suggest you do the same.

I have done the same. I will take the word of Mike Lombardi a former GM over Todd McShay a media person whos previous draft analysis has not been all that good. Lombardi says Tebow will go in the 1st.

[SABURZFAN]

Hopefully, we can finally put an end to the madness with this.


i'd like to see the Clausen madness end too.

[Commissioner]

I think it's amazing that Urban Meyer never fixed his throwing motion and taught Tebow to read a defense...

apparently it was just about winning in college and not preparing him to be a pro.

[tampabay25690]

Tebow sucks. He was great in college the end...

You have no idea or does anyone else have an idea what Tim will do in the next level...

[BlackMetalNinja]

You have no idea or does anyone else have an idea what Tim will do in the next level...No... we all have an idea actually... we just don't have facts. Only time will tell on that part.

[Stewie]

this whole discussion is a bit pointless

Tebow could succeed if put in the right situation. And he may not succeed if he isn't.

Pretty much sums it up for all QB's. There are certainly guys all of us have forgotten about who could have been hall of fame NFL qb's if given the chance

Would any of us remember sixth round draftee Tom Brady if Mo Lewis hadn't badly hurt Drew Bledsoe 9 years ago? Would he ever have gotten a chance to see the field?

Tebow seems like a nice kid, so I wish him well.

[trapezeus]

tebow is going to succeed the way he plays or fail the way he plays. Coaches who think they are going to change his throwing motion and ask him to be a starting qb and ask him to read new defenses are going to overload him.

Get the schooling of the defenses in his head and let him play his game the way he plays it. This constant, "oh, we'll coach him how to throw" stuff seems like nonsense. for a guy who has won at every level so far, let him play how he feels comfortable, but give him the tools to know when to use which bag of his tricks.

That being said, i'm not a huge tebow guy. Some other team with a QB that can let tebow sit on the bench will get the most out of tebow. a team like the bills will overwhelm him and we'll get little to no production out of him.

[DraftBoy]

I have done the same. I will take the word of Mike Lombardi a former GM over Todd McShay a media person whos previous draft analysis has not been all that good. Lombardi says Tebow will go in the 1st.

But not because Tebow deserves to, or his skill level is good enough. He says its as a media ploy. The day a good team drafts for a media ploy is the day they start there downward spiral.

[TacklingDummy]

What someone does in practice doesn't mean much to me. If Tebow goes out and throws for 300 yards and 3 TDs then what?

[TacklingDummy]

Teams that are pretty much set can take him early. With all of our needs, we just can't afford the risk.
Why not? The Bills drafted 2 other projects with McFumbles and Maybin in the first round when they needed players that could help right now.

[Bone]

I really don't give a crap about how hes struggling. The dude knows how to play and is a leader, we do not have a leader.

[kernowboy]

I really don't give a crap about how hes struggling. The dude knows how to play and is a leader, we do not have a leader.

Clearly he doesn't know how to play, at least in the pro game

[Ickybaluky]

Get the schooling of the defenses in his head and let him play his game the way he plays it. This constant, "oh, we'll coach him how to throw" stuff seems like nonsense. for a guy who has won at every level so far, let him play how he feels comfortable, but give him the tools to know when to use which bag of his tricks.

But can he play the way he did in college? If he runs like he did at Florida, is he going to hold up to the pounding? He is going to have to adjust his game somewhat.

I think the closest NFL model for Tebow is Vince Young. Both are big, athletic QBs with great leadership and intangibles that had great success in college. Neither is a "traditional" NFL QB.

However, it has taken Young 4 years to get to where he is today. It wasn't until this year that he showed he is comfortable in the pocket. This is the first year his Yds/Att was over 7.0, and the first time he threw for more TDs than Ints.

So Young, like Tebow, has been a project. To his credit, he has developed and now is a legitimate NFL QB. However, IMO, Tebow is a much bigger project than Young. First of all, Young is bigger (6-5) and faster, so it is easier to rely on his athleticism. Secondly, Young's mechanics were not good, but they weren't as crappy as Tebow's. Young had an odd release, throwing sidearm, but he got rid of the ball quickly. Tebow take forever to wind up and throw. Young had pretty good footwork, Tebow's is inconsistent. Basically, Young's throwing issues were tied to his release point, while Tebow's mechanics are screwed up all over.

IMO, Tebow won't be as good an NFL player as Young. At best, assuming he can even improve his mechanics and learn the NFL game, I see him as a poor-man's Vince Young. That, IMO, is his ceiling. His floor is he ends up not being able to play QB at all on and NFL level. I don't think that is worth the risk.

That said, someone will take him higher than expected, probably late first round. They will buy into the hype, and it will be a decision based on selling tickets and not on his ability.

[Iehoshua]

Go TEBuffalOW!

[DraftBoy]

What someone does in practice doesn't mean much to me. If Tebow goes out and throws for 300 yards and 3 TDs then what?

Won't matter much, most scouts and player personnel people left yesterday. The game is an exhibition, it means very very little. Practice and weighs ins are what matter during the all-star games.

[ddaryl]

If NE39 and Draftboy don't have much faith in Tebow as a pro, and then you couple it with all the obvious reports about him that are not telling a flattering pro potential, then IMO it goes beyond safe to say that tebow in definitely a project that should not be a 1st rd pick by any team accept those teams that can afford to draft such a player and let him sit for a few years and learn.

Something the Bills can definitely not afford especially since we went ahead and did a massive reach in 2009 with Maybin and missed out out on immediate impact players last year

[Canadian'eh!]

Tebow sucks. System/Wildcat QB who never played under center.

He's a moral lock to suck. Just like Clausen is a lock to be a bust.

[ByrdsTheWord]

Tebow isn't a "QB" and never was a legit "QB" and never will be a legit "QB." What is there to really talk about? You guys didnt see this coming?

[trapezeus]

NE, my point is that you reign in some of tebow not all of him. You let him scramble to a degree, but you coach him to read defenses and make the passes. That will take time.

But you don't go in and ask him to change his throwing technique because it's different. phillip rivers has an ugly throwing motion, but he understands the complexities of the games, has a good blocking scheme, and works with it.

You have to give tebow the tools to succeed and have him grasp a small change like trying to be in the pocket more. but you can't try to overhaul him.

The bills did this to Losman. They wanted him in the pocket exclusively. perhaps if they let him play it his way, and coached him what he was seeing inside and outside of the pocket, he'd have gotten it more. but they overwhelmed him with changing 100% from who he was. and as we know he wasnt' bright enough to get it.

[DraftBoy]

NE, my point is that you reign in some of tebow not all of him. You let him scramble to a degree, but you coach him to read defenses and make the passes. That will take time.

But you don't go in and ask him to change his throwing technique because it's different. phillip rivers has an ugly throwing motion, but he understands the complexities of the games, has a good blocking scheme, and works with it.

You have to give tebow the tools to succeed and have him grasp a small change like trying to be in the pocket more. but you can't try to overhaul him.

The bills did this to Losman. They wanted him in the pocket exclusively. perhaps if they let him play it his way, and coached him what he was seeing inside and outside of the pocket, he'd have gotten it more. but they overwhelmed him with changing 100% from who he was. and as we know he wasnt' bright enough to get it.


This has been repeated countless times now. Rivers throwing motion was NEVER an issue. It was his release point. He actually has a very quick release, despite how it looks asthetically. Tebow has a very long, deliberate and slow throwing motion which is why its a big time issue.

[ByrdsTheWord]

NE, my point is that you reign in some of tebow not all of him. You let him scramble to a degree, but you coach him to read defenses and make the passes. That will take time.

But you don't go in and ask him to change his throwing technique because it's different. phillip rivers has an ugly throwing motion, but he understands the complexities of the games, has a good blocking scheme, and works with it.

You have to give tebow the tools to succeed and have him grasp a small change like trying to be in the pocket more. but you can't try to overhaul him.

The bills did this to Losman. They wanted him in the pocket exclusively. perhaps if they let him play it his way, and coached him what he was seeing inside and outside of the pocket, he'd have gotten it more. but they overwhelmed him with changing 100% from who he was. and as we know he wasnt' bright enough to get it.


Philip Rivers was still a polished QB that was able to read coverages and defense. Tebow can't even do that. Its not all about his throwing mechanics. Its the basics.

[trapezeus]

This has been repeated countless times now. Rivers throwing motion was NEVER an issue. It was his release point. He actually has a very quick release, despite how it looks asthetically. Tebow has a very long, deliberate and slow throwing motion which is why its a big time issue.

i admittedly don't know enough about the throwing motion. i'm going off of what i see.

Is there any video on youtube of the two where you can kind of break it down as to where phillips has the quick release but bad motion and tebow has the slow throwing motion?

I've been reading stuff on this, but i never get to see it with my own two eyes.

My take is that phillips does take a long time to get rid of it.

[DraftBoy]

i admittedly don't know enough about the throwing motion. i'm going off of what i see.

Is there any video on youtube of the two where you can kind of break it down as to where phillips has the quick release but bad motion and tebow has the slow throwing motion?

I've been reading stuff on this, but i never get to see it with my own two eyes.

My take is that phillips does take a long time to get rid of it.

Phillip Rivers;
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Tim Tebow;
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/arJsVtGUfCY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/arJsVtGUfCY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Notice;

Rivers carries the ball high, all he has to do is **** his arm and fire the ball. Tebow carries his below his chest, then brings the ball down, then up, and then fires the pass. Less than a second of difference but more than enough for an NFL DB.

[ddaryl]

Just like Clausen is a lock to be a bust.

I'll bite

Why is Clausen a lock to be a bust.... ?

[ddaryl]

Rivers carries the ball high, all he has to do is **** his arm and fire the ball.


I'll assume he is a kocking his arm, but it was fun to try and put in all the known swear words before I figured this out

[TacklingDummy]

Won't matter much, most scouts and player personnel people left yesterday. The game is an exhibition, it means very very little. Practice and weighs ins are what matter during the all-star games.
Sorry but to me I put more stock in how someone plays, not in how they look in practice. Rob Johnson looked awesome in practice, how did he look come game day?

[DraftBoy]

I'll assume he is a kocking his arm, but it was fun to try and put in all the known swear words before I figured this out

I prefer my spelling, it allows for the imagination to have some fun.

[DraftBoy]

Sorry but to me I put more stock in how someone plays, not in how they look in practice. Rob Johnson looked awesome in practice, how did he look come game day?

Different scenario, think of tomorrows game like you would the Preseason...do you really care how most players play in the preseason? Tomorrow is an exhibition game, the practice (like TC) is what really matters.

[TacklingDummy]

I'll bite

Why is Clausen a lock to be a bust.... ?
Because with the 9th pick in the NFL Draft the Buffalo Bills select out of Notre Dame...Jimmy Clausen.

[PECKERWOOD]

Because with the 9th pick in the NFL Draft the Buffalo Bills select out of Notre Dame...Jimmy Clausen.

:hi5:

Shoot, even Bradford or Tebow I could live with, I'll take either of those three, it will depend on what kind of situation we put them in to be successful.

[tampabay25690]

WOW all the Tebow hate all over the country.............

TV, radio, papers, its almost like the media wants this guy to fail.
Why don't we wait till SAT and the combine before we all jump to conclusions on 1 of the best college plays ever to play the game....

The guy was great for the game and will be a NFL player and I don't even know what he will do in the NFL....

I hope he gets drafted to the right situation thats all I know......

[TacklingDummy]

WOW all the Tebow hate all over the country.............

TV, radio, papers, its almost like the media wants this guy to fail.
Why don't we wait till SAT and the combine before we all jump to conclusions on 1 of the best college plays ever to play the game....

The guy was great for the game and will be a NFL player and I don't even know what he will do in the NFL....

I hope he gets drafted to the right situation thats all I know......
I hope he succeeds just so that the no nothing scouts and media look foolish again.

[tampabay25690]

It's because he is a Christian, that's why people hate him.

I understand the hate because College football made him the Poster child.....
Kind of like the hate most have for the NY Yankees.....

WOW the pressure this guy has to be good in the next level is more then any player coming out of College in my lifetime........

[PECKERWOOD]

I hope he succeeds just so that the no nothing scouts and media look foolish again.

He is a really sexy 2nd round pick, but I understand peoples reluctance in taking him in the 1st round.

[PECKERWOOD]

I understand the hate because College football made him the Poster child.....
Kind of like the hate most have for the NY Yankees.....

WOW the pressure this guy has to be good in the next level is more then any player coming out of College in my lifetime........
He earned it though, Tebow = Florida.

[TacklingDummy]

He is a really sexy 2nd round pick, but I understand peoples reluctance in taking him in the 1st round.
Never know what Al Davis and the Raiders will do. Wouldn't shock me they take him at #8.

Davis will be thinking he's drafting the next Ken Stabler.

[trapezeus]

thanks draftboy. i pre-thanked you. i can't see the video from work, but i'll check it out tonight.

why don't they do shows that talk showcase things like buzz terms like "arm strength" "quick release" and have video clips of the best and worst currently? It'd be awesome to study a position a week.

[better days]

But not because Tebow deserves to, or his skill level is good enough. He says its as a media ploy. The day a good team drafts for a media ploy is the day they start there downward spiral.

Lombardi did not say Tebow will be drafted as a media ploy. He thinks some team will draft him in the 1st because of his leadership & intangibles.

I agree with you if a team drafts as a media ploy it may sell tickets for a year or two but would hurt the team in the long run. So what team besides the Jags would have a reason to draft Tebow as a media ploy? The answer is none because I'm sure you could go on every message board outside of Jax & find the same hatred for Tebow that there is on this board. If the Jags draft him & they well might you can call it a ploy although that does not necessarily mean Tebow will fail. If any other team drafts him it can't be called a ploy

[DraftBoy]

thanks draftboy. i pre-thanked you. i can't see the video from work, but i'll check it out tonight.

why don't they do shows that talk showcase things like buzz terms like "arm strength" "quick release" and have video clips of the best and worst currently? It'd be awesome to study a position a week.

Because people would get easily bored with it. Most fans don't care or really want to understand what is actually happening. Which is why at times like this you have 15 different threads going off about this guy or that guy that are giving him props and criticizing him for things that don't even apply to him.

[kernowboy]

I hope we draft him just to piss off the atheists here. :rockout:

It has absolutely zero to do with religion

I am certain a number if not the majority of Bills players have religious convictions.

What it has to do with is substantial doubts that he can actually be an effective pro-level QB.

He has been a superb college player but what he got away with at college level will be quickly stopped at pro-level.

Nobody here is saying don't draft Tebow because of his religious convictions. They are saying don't draft Tebow because it will take years before he can be a serviceable QB in this league, and the pick wasted on him and it will be wasted, can be better spent on drafting on player on either side of the ball who can help this team win far earlier

[PECKERWOOD]

I know, I'm just saying that I would ROFL laughing to see Griff & mercyrule put up with Tim Tebow painting scripture verses on his eye paint.

[BillsOwnAll]

Tebow sucks. He was great in college the end...


OOOOOO OH KKK. At least we all know this now. Great reasons!

[trapezeus]

I know, I'm just saying that I would ROFL laughing to see Griff & mercyrule put up with Tim Tebow painting scripture verses on his eye paint.

and how many people have you rooted for that talk about being a good christian who haven't actually done a damn thing that relates to being christian? that's made us all laugh too.

your fascination with atheists is interesting to say the least.


Draftboy, i disagree. i think people would find it interesting if it was discussed with the film being broken down. The show couldn't be like the nonsense on ESPN gameday. you can't have former players in suits pretending to walk through plays. But if you voiced over stuff and just showed split screens of different players of "what's right" vs. "what's wrong", i think a huge chunk of fans would sit down to watch that.

That's why the draft is so annoying to watch on ESPN, because they don't back up anything that's being said. Show us what you specifically like and don't like when you talk. It doesn't help to have the talking heads ramble with no visuals of what they like.

[DraftBoy]

and how many people have you rooted for that talk about being a good christian who haven't actually done a damn thing that relates to being christian? that's made us all laugh too.

your fascination with atheists is interesting to say the least.


Draftboy, i disagree. i think people would find it interesting if it was discussed with the film being broken down. The show couldn't be like the nonsense on ESPN gameday. you can't have former players in suits pretending to walk through plays. But if you voiced over stuff and just showed split screens of different players of "what's right" vs. "what's wrong", i think a huge chunk of fans would sit down to watch that.

That's why the draft is so annoying to watch on ESPN, because they don't back up anything that's being said. Show us what you specifically like and don't like when you talk. It doesn't help to have the talking heads ramble with no visuals of what they like.

I think you're in the minority here, and trust me Id love a show that breaks down all that stuff. But ratings wise I dont think it will work. They used to do a solid job of breaking down plays on the NFL shows with Merrill Hodge but rarely do I ever seen anybody take the time in the 'action now' age to breakdown a guys abilities. Because it takes watching the same few plays over again a few times to see eveything at times. For a QB specifically what I look for in evaluation is;

-Can he do the 3, 5, and 7 step drop back? Does he have happy feet, is he able to move smoothly around the pocket to avoid the rush?

-How high or low is he carrying the ball in his drop and when he is waiting to throw?

-Is he scanning the field or locking onto his target, is he looking off DB's?

-Does he set up to throw, plant his feet, and set his shoulders?

-Does he step into his throw?

That's all prior to him even beginning to throw the ball and Im not a pro, who Im sure look for even more detailed things. But I have to see some snaps 2 or 3 times just to see everything I want, before I move onto to the next play. To many that's very boring, but to some its extremely interesting.

I just dont think it would work on TV today.


I agree with you though about the draft as well by the way!

[BlackMetalNinja]

Folks, I understand religion is a topic that ends up coming up pretty much everytime with Tim Tebow. I ask that you please stick to the football end of things in any discussion of him. This forum is not the place for religious debate and bringing up personal beliefs. We do have a forum for that type of discussion and it can be found here:

The Spin Zone (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/forumdisplay.php?f=52)

The very nature of religious debates seems to tempt people to break the TOS, and that's simply not ok. So please stick to talking football and save the religious issues for the appropriate forum. I've already moved several posts out of this thread, and will continue to do so as necessary, but it really would be much simpler if you just kept the talk to his football ability.

Thanks!

[trapezeus]

peyton manning...does he qualify as having happy feet? i mean he pitter patters alot.

[DraftBoy]

peyton manning...does he qualify as having happy feet? i mean he pitter patters alot.

Yes I think he does to some degree and its about the only critique of Manning's game you can find. But he also often will set his feet when he's throwing even though he is constantly chopping around in the pocket. Most of the good QB's will bounce on their toes like a basketball player in a defense stance in order to quickly turn the body and fire. Peyton's footwork isn't the best Ive ever seen but it works for him and doesn't take anything away from it, so there is no need to change it.

The only time Id ever advocate changing a QB's mechanics, is when they would be unable to play QB at the next level without a change. To me Manning's feet, Rivers release point don't prevent them from being NFL QB's because they are minor things, both still have a very solid base of fundamentals behind all of that. Tim Tebow on the other hand has a delivery that Im 99.9% convinced will stop him from ever being an effective NFL QB. Its not just how slow it is either, its how he releases the ball, his plane that he releases on and his giveaway that he throwing with downward pump (think of QB's who pat the ball). Those are things he'd have to completely retool along with learning an NFL playbook, adjusting to dropping back from center, and reading complex defenses. Could he do it? Sure, but Im a gambling man and Id not only bet against him, Id give odds, theoretically speaking.

[Philagape]

Peyton Manning can do handstands and throw with his feet for all I care, as long as he plays as well as he does.

[mark1126]

and jim kelly raves about him??? omg, sad!

[alohabillsfan]

I love laptop scouts!

[tampabay25690]

I love laptop scouts!

Its funny how threw the year there are a few of us that know alot about college football and all of a sudden everyone is Mel Kiper....
I laugh every post I read now...:jig:

[alohabillsfan]

I also like how you tube and the NFL network qualifies as game film! like- "I watched alot of film" translation I googled youtube and watched his highlight film". Or I have done a lot of research, translation, I read alot of scouting reports written in the basement of several sources".

p.s. measurables are nice, please draft football players!

[IAG]

It was painful watching him play.

[YardRat]

I love laptop scouts!

If the Bills front office would have listened to the 'laptop scouts' we'd be sporting a roster with Nick Mangold, Michael Oher, Haloti Ngata, and Darrell Revis instead of Donte Whitner, Aaron Maybin, Marshawn Lynch, and John McCargo.

[FlyingDutchman]

where are all of the Tebow supporters today?

[SABURZFAN]

where are all of the Tebow supporters today?


back under their rocks where they belong. the others are still calling in WGR 55 trying to still make a case that the Bills should draft him. :rolleyes:

[feldspar]

Why, because McShay said so? He never liked Tebow, and he is no talent evaluator. Wait until the game is played Saturday. I will bet Tebow plays well. By the time of the draft Tebow will have made enough progress to make some team like him. Pat White was drafted in the 2nd rnd last year & Tebow is much better than him.

What do you mean he's no talent evaluator? That is exactly what he is, and it may as well be his job title. You could say that he is a bad one (and some people may take issue with that), but he IS a talent evaluator. That's all he does.

...and I happen to agree with him about Tebow, who got killed on Saturday. IMO, the only way that Tebow is drafted above the 3rd round is if it's by Jacksonville to sell tickets. He's REAL popular up there. Miami is THE wildcat team, that's why they drafted White. No other team uses the Wildcat as often or as effectively as Miami...it's just a periodic gimmick on other teams, and that's all Tebow is good for right now, the Wildcat.

[PECKERWOOD]

If the Bills front office would have listened to the 'laptop scouts' we'd be sporting a roster with Nick Mangold, Michael Oher, Haloti Ngata, and Darrell Revis instead of Donte Whitner, Aaron Maybin, Marshawn Lynch, and John McCargo.

You're right, at the end of the day it's just football, we all watch the same games that the scouts do.

[better days]

What do you mean he's no talent evaluator? That is exactly what he is, and it may as well be his job title. You could say that he is a bad one (and some people may take issue with that), but he IS a talent evaluator. That's all he does.

...and I happen to agree with him about Tebow, who got killed on Saturday. IMO, the only way that Tebow is drafted above the 3rd round is if it's by Jacksonville to sell tickets. He's REAL popular up there. Miami is THE wildcat team, that's why they drafted White. No other team uses the Wildcat as often or as effectively as Miami...it's just a periodic gimmick on other teams, and that's all Tebow is good for right now, the Wildcat.

I still have not had a chance to watch the game, but it does not matter Tebow will be drafted by a team that already likes him.

McShay is not a talent evaluator for an NFL team. He is a media guy for ESPN like Mel Kiper only not as good, nothing more. If he were any good he would have a job in the NFL.

[FlyingDutchman]

I still have not had a chance to watch the game, but it does not matter Tebow will be drafted by a team that already likes him.

McShay is not a talent evaluator for an NFL team. He is a media guy for ESPN like Mel Kiper only not as good, nothing more. If he were any good he would have a job in the NFL.

Tim Tebow is nothing special and will not get drafted in the first round. Get off his nuts

[better days]

Tim Tebow is nothing special and will not get drafted in the first round. Get off his nuts

Mike Lombardi will differ with you. We will have to wait & see.

[LtFinFan66]

Does that surprise you? Tebow outplayed Pike in the Sugar Bowl by a wide margin. I expect Tebow to have the best game of all the QB's that play on Saturday.he didn't

[better days]

he didn't

I have the game DVR'd but yeah from reading these threads, I get that he didn't have a good game. Not making excuses for him but he was very sick the entire week.

It will make the combine all the more interesting don't you think?

[BuffaloBlitz83]

I have the game DVR'd but yeah from reading these threads, I get that he didn't have a good game. Not making excuses for him but he was very sick the entire week.

It will make the combine all the more interesting don't you think?

I hate when people say Not to make an excuse, then to follow it up with an excuse!

[better days]

I hate when people say Not to make an excuse, then to follow it up with an excuse!

I hate when I come to a light & it's red.

[feldspar]

I still have not had a chance to watch the game, but it does not matter Tebow will be drafted by a team that already likes him.

McShay is not a talent evaluator for an NFL team. He is a media guy for ESPN like Mel Kiper only not as good, nothing more. If he were any good he would have a job in the NFL.

You could say that McShay is a talent evaluator for ALL NFL teams. He has to know something about every single drafted player from college and also has to know a lot about every NFL team.

Why would you assume he would WANT to have a job in the NFL? You don't think he makes plenty of coin doing what he does now? It's not easy, but I would imagine he has more freedom doing what he does.

You don't really hear anything from NFL scouts or "talent evaluators," if you want to call them that. All you ever hear these guys do is talk up the guys they DO draft, and they do this after the fact...after the draft takes place. They operate behind closed doors. Guys like McShay and Kiper have to go on record with just about every potentially draftable college player, maybe 300 guys, giving both the strengths and weaknesses of all of them. Add to that the undrafted players that land on teams, and you have a hell of a lot of ground to cover. Don't think for a minute that guys like McShay and Kiper have just as many connections as an NFL scout or talent evaluator.

Anyway, the word is out on Tebow, and just about everybody agrees with him that I've heard. No way he should go in the first round.

[better days]

You could say that McShay is a talent evaluator for ALL NFL teams. He has to know something about every single drafted player from college and also has to know a lot about every NFL team.

Why would you assume he would WANT to have a job in the NFL? You don't think he makes plenty of coin doing what he does now? It's not easy, but I would imagine he has more freedom doing what he does.

You don't really hear anything from NFL scouts or "talent evaluators," if you want to call them that. All you ever hear these guys do is talk up the guys they DO draft, and they do this after the fact...after the draft takes place. They operate behind closed doors. Guys like McShay and Kiper have to go on record with just about every potentially draftable college player, maybe 300 guys, giving both the strengths and weaknesses of all of them. Add to that the undrafted players that land on teams, and you have a hell of a lot of ground to cover. Don't think for a minute that guys like McShay and Kiper have just as many connections as an NFL scout or talent evaluator.

Anyway, the word is out on Tebow, and just about everybody agrees with him that I've heard. No way he should go in the first round.

McShay & Kiper are nothing more than fans that work in the media. In fact that is how Kiper started out. As a college student he was really into college football & he started putting out a little paper with his thoughts on the players. Neither of these guys would ever be hired by an NFL team. I'm sure they make good money, but Kiper has said how little he made for years. There are most likely a few people on this board that are as good as those two at evaluating players.

There have been people that think Tebow will be drafted in the 1st, including Mike Lombardi a former GM. The best thing for Tebow would be to be drafted in the 2nd or 3rd where there would be no pressure to play until he is ready.

[feldspar]

McShay & Kiper are nothing more than fans that work in the media. In fact that is how Kiper started out. As a college student he was really into college football & he started putting out a little paper with his thoughts on the players. Neither of these guys would ever be hired by an NFL team. I'm sure they make good money, but Kiper has said how little he made for years. There are most likely a few people on this board that are as good as those two at evaluating players.

There have been people that think Tebow will be drafted in the 1st, including Mike Lombardi a former GM. The best thing for Tebow would be to be drafted in the 2nd or 3rd where there would be no pressure to play until he is ready.

If there are fans that are as good or informed as McShay or Kiper, those fans have no jobs and no life. It's not realistic to say say that somebody in his living room knows as much as these guys. There are no fans that actually talk to the players and coaches, have access to more inside information, watch as much tape, and witness more things first hand the way these guys do. Do you have any idea how much time they invest on making their predictions...and they ARE predictions, so of course they are going to be wrong here and there.

It's their passion, and that's why they do it I would imagine. You don't have to be a fan, but you have to respect the amount of time and effort they put into their jobs. They are familiar with ALL of college football and how it relates to the NFL, no mean feat.

The fact that they are media guys and don't have NFL jobs does not diminish what they have to say in the least. They have totally specialized jobs. Why do you even listen to them if you think they have nothing to offer? Do you keep tabs about everything they ever say?

[better days]

If there are fans that are as good or informed as McShay or Kiper, those fans have no jobs and no life. It's not realistic to say say that somebody in his living room knows as much as these guys. There are no fans that actually talk to the players and coaches, have access to more inside information, watch as much tape, and witness more things first hand the way these guys do. Do you have any idea how much time they invest on making their predictions...and they ARE predictions, so of course they are going to be wrong here and there.

It's their passion, and that's why they do it I would imagine. You don't have to be a fan, but you have to respect the amount of time and effort they put into their jobs. They are familiar with ALL of college football and how it relates to the NFL, no mean feat.

The fact that they are media guys and don't have NFL jobs does not diminish what they have to say in the least. They have totally specialized jobs. Why do you even listen to them if you think they have nothing to offer? Do you keep tabs about everything they ever say?

I'm not really knocking them, I'm just stating the facts. I will grant you they have access the average fan does not. That does not mean they know the game of football better than some on this board.

I listen to them both as I listen to EVERYONE including you. I just take what I hear with a grain of salt & value the opinion of a former player or NFL personal man over a media person. In my opinion Mike Mayock & Mike Lombardi are two of the most knowledgeable people working in the media, & yes I know Mayock doesn't care all that much for Tebow.

[feldspar]

I'm not really knocking them, I'm just stating the facts. I will grant you they have access the average fan does not. That does not mean they know the game of football better than some on this board.

I listen to them both as I listen to EVERYONE including you. I just take what I hear with a grain of salt & value the opinion of a former player or NFL personal man over a media person. In my opinion Mike Mayock & Mike Lombardi are two of the most knowledgeable people working in the media, & yes I know Mayock doesn't care all that much for Tebow.

You should take what you hear with a grain of salt no matter who says what, especially when we are talking about predicting how a college player's skills are going to translate into the NFL. It's not an exact science, so EVERYONE is going to be wrong quite a bit. It's like the "expert picks" every week on who is going to win an NFL game...I'm usually right more than most if not all of them over a course of a season. Picking against the spread is even harder. I do both every week and have been for years.

Anyway, I just think that McShay and Kiper are well prepared and that former NFL players are often talking out of their ass when they become analysts. McShay and Kiper are worth listening to, and that's what counts. They'll give you the facts, others' opinions, and then their own opinion. What more do you want? You hear them out and then get a little further making up your own mind, which is what you should always do in the end, anyway.

[Ickybaluky]

Mike Lombardi will differ with you. We will have to wait & see.

I saw Lombardi on NFL Total Access the other day and he predicted Tebow would go in the 2nd round to Jacksonville. He says he hasn't done a lot of film study on him yet, though, so he is just guessing based on his feeling that Jacksonville wants him so much.

Mike Mayock predicts 3rd round (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/blog/97021/index.html) for Tebow, but says he could maybe work his way up to the 2nd. He feels Tebow is worth the risk as a project because he has the intangibles:


The NFL Network's Mike Mayock joined the show to talk about the NFL Draft.
Mayock has Oklahoma's Gerald McCoy rated over Nebraska's Ndamokung Suh on his draft board. But Mayock wanted to make it clear:
"In my opinion, the two best players in the country are by far, McCoy and Suh," Mayock said.
Mayock said all anybody wants to talk about is Tim Tebow. Mayock said that Tebow is "way out of whack on his footwork." Mayock said he'll probably go around the third round, and he'll need a "redshirt" year. But Mayock said he could get up to the second round.
"If you're ever going to take a chance on a kid ... this is the kid," Mayock said. Mayock said he's convinced he will follow coaching very well and do anything he can to help a team. But overall, Mayock said Tebow has "issues."

[The Natrix]

I think Tebow has a place on an NFL team but I'd put the likelyhood that he becomes a franchise QB at about 8%.

New England or Pittsburgh would be a good fit. Have him come in at QB and run the wildcat once or twice a game. Line him up outside or in the backfield occasionally, etc etc.

He's a terrible fit for Buffalo right now. The Bills need to get the fundamentals of a good football team in place before they can draft a luxury player like Tebow. If he's there in the 5th or later I wouldn't mind seeing the bills grab him.

[SaviorEdwards]

Draft Tim Tebow and good things will happen.

[better days]

I think Tebow has a place on an NFL team but I'd put the likelyhood that he becomes a franchise QB at about 8%.

New England or Pittsburgh would be a good fit. Have him come in at QB and run the wildcat once or twice a game. Line him up outside or in the backfield occasionally, etc etc.

He's a terrible fit for Buffalo right now. The Bills need to get the fundamentals of a good football team in place before they can draft a luxury player like Tebow. If he's there in the 5th or later I wouldn't mind seeing the bills grab him.

My Son-inlaw a Dolphins fan & I watched the Super Bowl together. We talked about Tebow & he said he would love him on the Fins so much that he wouldn't mind if they used their 1st rnd pick on him.

I was surprised because they drafted Pat White last year. He thinks White sucks, can't throw the ball at all.

[The Natrix]

Yeah, he'd be a good fit in Miami, but they would be crazy to spend a 1st on him.

[kernowboy]

He probably also believes that like creationists the earth is only 6,000 years old - unfortunately that's probably how long it will take him to become a starting NFL QB

[feldspar]

I saw Lombardi on NFL Total Access the other day and he predicted Tebow would go in the 2nd round to Jacksonville. He says he hasn't done a lot of film study on him yet, though, so he is just guessing based on his feeling that Jacksonville wants him so much.


It's not a mystery why Jacksonville might want to draft him earlier than he should go. They have a big problem selling tickets, and Tebow is wildly popular in Florida. Jacksonville had a great shot at the playoffs this year, and I think just about all of their games were blacked out locally except for like one. Tons of people there are college fans above being NFL fans: I should know; I lived there for almost 2 years.