How would a win against the Pats change your view on the season? [Archive] - BillsZone.com

psubills62

09-22-2011, 11:15 AM

If the Bills happened to beat the Patriots, how would that change your view of this team and this season?

I predicted 6-10 before the season started. For now, I'm sticking with that prediction. If we beat the Patriots, I'd probably up it to at least 8-8.

Just curious how people feel about it, especially those who predicted doomsday before the season. Would those still skeptical start to believe in the team? Obviously we'd still want to see the rest of the season play out, but would you believe they could make the playoffs if that happened?

trapezeus

09-22-2011, 11:16 AM

if the bills beat the pats, it changes my outlook on everything. the bills season, peace in the middle east, economic turmoil, GOP candidates, everything.

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 11:21 AM

It'll mean that the Mayan calendar was wrong. The world isn't ending in 2012.

TheBrownBear

09-22-2011, 12:41 PM

I currently have us at 4 or 5 wins. If we beat the Pats, then I'll shift my expectations up to around 10 wins and a shot at the playoffs. If we lose a hard fought game and look good doing so, I'd consider 7 or 8 wins a real possibility.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 12:46 PM

why don't we talk about this if we actually end up winning the game?

Too many people on this board seem way too confident.

BertSquirtgum

09-22-2011, 12:48 PM

My first prediction was 9-7. after the evans trade i changed it to 5-11. if the Bills win i would say they are a 9-7 team again but if they lose they are probably a 7-9 team.

The King

09-22-2011, 12:49 PM

It doesn't change my view at all. We're a young team that's finally on the right path... a win against the pats will do wonders for the teams confidence but at the end of the day we're still growing and the best is yet to come. We're also probably going to fall on our faces a few times this season, as well.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 12:51 PM

why don't we talk about this if we actually end up winning the game?

Too many people on this board seem way too confident.
Confident? You obviously haven't been reading my other posts this week.

I don't believe we have much of a chance at all to beat the Pats. In fact, that's one reason I started this thread now instead of after - because I don't think it will happen. I'm just curious as to how defeating the Pats might change people's perception of the Bills. Since they seem to be our Everest, I'm interested to hear if beating the Patriots might lift pall that's settled over Bills fans in general.

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 12:53 PM

why don't we talk about this if we actually end up winning the game?

Too many people on this board seem way too confident.
It's pretty obvious you hate winning but ,who lit the fuse in your tampon today?

OP, the first post started with "IF"

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 01:06 PM

It's pretty obvious you hate winning but ,who lit the fuse in your tampon today?

OP, the first post started with "IF"

Yes, but the whole thing is predicated on how a Bills WIN would change things.... we are talking about a win that hasn't happened yet.

I don't hate winning- I hate talking about a very difficult game that hasn't happened yet as if it's already a win.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 01:10 PM

Yes, but the whole thing is predicated on how a Bills WIN would change things.... we are talking about a win that hasn't happened yet.

I don't hate winning- I hate talking about a very difficult game that hasn't happened yet as if it's already a win.
Nobody's talking like that. It's simply a question, and 100% hypothetical. Nobody's acting like we're going to win, just wondering how you'd feel IF we did.

trapezeus

09-22-2011, 01:14 PM

i had the bills at 4-12...i predicted these wins. not like this though.

if the bills win, cinci was always a win, eagles without vick could be a win, giants if they keep playing how they are playing is a win, washington could be the first real loss.

Then the jets (same as this pats game going into it), dallas could be in a world of injury hurt, miami at miami seems to be a win for everybody, jets again, tenn is a win, san diego would be a loss, and thenext two in buffalo vs miami and denver could be easy wins.

Team could be 11-5 just based on this butterfly effect win. book it now.

Bill Cody

09-22-2011, 01:22 PM

why don't we talk about this if we actually end up winning the game?

Too many people on this board seem way too confident.

No doubt you would have felt better if the hypothetical was "if we lose to NE"

BAM

09-22-2011, 01:29 PM

We are going to get crushed, but if we somehow pull this off then this team is for real. Playoffs aren't unlikely especially if we beat them convincingly. But I can't see how we'll win. Hope I'm wrong obviously.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 01:32 PM

No doubt you would have felt better if the hypothetical was "if we lose to NE"

it's a much more realistic hypothetical.

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 01:32 PM

Yes, but the whole thing is predicated on how a Bills WIN would change things.... we are talking about a win that hasn't happened yet.

I don't hate winning- I hate talking about a very difficult game that hasn't happened yet as if it's already a win.
it's theoretical. Only someone who hates anything postive will translate it the way you did.

BertSquirtgum

09-22-2011, 01:34 PM

Team could be 11-5 just based on this butterfly effect win. book it now.

to be completely honest here. i just almost creamed in my pants at the thought of the bills ending the season at 11 and 5.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 01:34 PM

it's theoretical. Only someone who hates anything postive will translate it the way you did.

it's not positive or negative-it's hypothetical- it isn't even real.

If by some miracle, we actually win, then we'll discuss it. But it's pointless and presumptuous to discuss hypothetical wins 3 days before the game.

acehole

09-22-2011, 01:35 PM

I predicted 10 and 6 and I think it might happen.

To answer your question the season would be a great success even if the worst happened...to see Tom in tears as he has a hissy fit walking out of the Stadium is worth all else..

If the Bills happened to beat the Patriots, how would that change your view of this team and this season?

I predicted 6-10 before the season started. For now, I'm sticking with that prediction. If we beat the Patriots, I'd probably up it to at least 8-8.

Just curious how people feel about it, especially those who predicted doomsday before the season. Would those still skeptical start to believe in the team? Obviously we'd still want to see the rest of the season play out, but would you believe they could make the playoffs if that happened?

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 01:37 PM

Mad Bomber

09-22-2011, 01:40 PM

why don't we talk about this if we actually end up winning the game?

Too many people on this board seem way too confident.
I think you missed the point, Bryan. The question was "IF". I saw it as a valid gauge of how people WOULD feel if we won the game. It's a perfectly valid question for a message board.

The thread you're talking about is that if we win the game and someone starts a thread saying "how do you feel now about the season?"

This isn't being way to confident, it's a very good thread gauging people's opinions. I for one am happy to see a "what if" conversation than the past conversations of "we suck, we're doomed."

Two different concepts. Why wait until the game to consider how you would feel IF we won?

To answer the question in the original post, my opinion of this team and season would take a HUGE leap. I had low expectations for this season, and am not optimistic of our chances on Sunday, so a win against the Pats would make me very optimistic for the team and the rest of the season.

trapezeus

09-22-2011, 01:41 PM

i just don't get why NE's two wins against weak teams and they played them closer than we did. They gave up more points than we have. they are a bend but don't break defense. our defense actually had a stout game thus far. We shouldn't be limited by our past when the present looks and smells so different.

New England wasn't that impressive.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 01:50 PM

I think you missed the point, Bryan. The question was "IF". I saw it as a valid gauge of how people WOULD feel if we won the game. It's a perfectly valid question for a message board.

The thread you're talking about is that if we win the game and someone starts a thread saying "how do you feel now about the season?"

This isn't being way to confident, it's a very good thread gauging people's opinions. I for one am happy to see a "what if" conversation than the past conversations of "we suck, we're doomed."

Two different concepts. Why wait until the game to consider how you would feel IF we won?

Because how I would feel IF we win, or how anyone else would feel for that matter, is irrelevant if we don't win.

If we don't win, everything in this thread becomes meaningless. If we do win, let's have the "How does the win change your view of the team" thread on Monday.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 01:50 PM

psubills62

09-22-2011, 01:51 PM

Are we seriously arguing about the value of discussing a hypothetical question on a message board?

What the hell?

Ickybaluky

09-22-2011, 01:53 PM

i just don't get why NE's two wins against weak teams and they played them closer than we did.

How is San Diego not a good team? They have a very good offense with one of the best QB in the NFL pulling the trigger. They are good on defense. I consider it to be a quality win against a good team, one that I think will win the AFC West. That's a playoff team, IMO.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 01:54 PM

Bill Cody

09-22-2011, 01:59 PM

it's not positive or negative-it's hypothetical- it isn't even real.

If by some miracle, we actually win, then we'll discuss it. But it's pointless and presumptuous to discuss hypothetical wins 3 days before the game.

Tell me how anything you've ever posted on a ****ing message board is "real". Sorry you're not the thread police. If you don't want to discuss the question posed, ignore the thread, very simple.

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 02:01 PM

Ickybaluky

09-22-2011, 02:02 PM

Are we seriously arguing about the value of discussing a hypothetical question on a message board?

What the hell?

Personally, it wouldn't change my opinion a lot. You are putting too much into the Patriots win streak against the Bills. That streak isn't just about the Pats being a better team over the last decade or so, it is a bit of a statistical oddity. There was luck involved in some of those games, and really Buffalo should have won a couple.

A win Sunday would be the same as if they beat the Jets, a win against a quality divisional opponent. Nothing would be won or lost yet, however. I think Buffalo has already showed they are a better team than a year ago, and I expect they will continue to be competitive through the season. Whether they can be a playoff team or not won't be determined until late in the season.

I am impressed with how well the Bills have played out of the gate, particularly with the play of their OL. I thought going into the season that would be the key for them, as I saw it as their biggest weakness. Turns out I was wrong and Buddy Nix was right, the OL was better than people thought. To me, that means the Bills are a competitive team, one that will be in the mix for a while. I don't think that changes much based on one division game in September.

The thing the Bills have left to prove is whether they can keep up improved play over the long haul of the season. Win or lose this week, that doesn't change. It just means they are off to a good start. Remember, the bills started 4-0 as recently as 2008.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:06 PM

Tell me how anything you've ever posted on a ****ing message board is "real". Sorry you're not the thread police. If you don't want to discuss the question posed, ignore the thread, very simple.

We beat the Raiders. That's a real win.

We haven't even played the Pats yet, so that is a hypothetical win.

If you don't understand the difference, then I can't help you.

And no, I won't ignore it. It's an open forum, and if something seems pointless to me, then I'm going to call it out. You're not the post police and you don't get to tell me what I can and can't post.

BertSquirtgum

09-22-2011, 02:07 PM

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 02:07 PM

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:13 PM

Always the Debbie Downer.........BOOOOOOOO

sorry that I'd rather live in the real world rather than creating hypothetical situations so we could feel all warm and fuzzy inside daydreaming about how we would react to it.

Mad Bomber

09-22-2011, 02:13 PM

Because how I would feel IF we win, or how anyone else would feel for that matter, is irrelevant if we don't win.

If we don't win, everything in this thread becomes meaningless. If we do win, let's have the "How does the win change your view of the team" thread on Monday.
It is NOT irrelevant Bryan. We spend a LOT of time on this board talking about the future...what are your expectations for the season, etc. so it is most definitely NOT irrelevant. I repeat, people's opinions on a "what if" scenario on a message board are most definitely NOT irrelevant.

If you only want to look at the past, like your Monday thread idea suggests, then why not wait until the season is over before we post anything? Let's just dissect the past.

BTW, you never answered the original question....how WOULD a win against the Pats change YOUR opinion of the team and season?

psubills62

09-22-2011, 02:13 PM

Personally, it wouldn't change my opinion a lot. You are putting too much into the Patriots win streak against the Bills. That streak isn't just about the Pats being a better team over the last decade or so, it is a bit of a statistical oddity. There was luck involved in some of those games, and really Buffalo should have won a couple.

A win Sunday would be the same as if they beat the Jets, a win against a quality divisional opponent. Nothing would be won or lost yet, however. I think Buffalo has already showed they are a better team than a year ago, and I expect they will continue to be competitive through the season. Whether they can be a playoff team or not won't be determined until late in the season.

I am impressed with how well the Bills have played out of the gate, particularly with the play of their OL. I thought going into the season that would be the key for them, as I saw it as their biggest weakness. Turns out I was wrong and Buddy Nix was right, the OL was better than people thought. To me, that means the Bills are a competitive team, one that will be in the mix for a while. I don't think that changes much based on one division game in September.

The thing the Bills have left to prove is whether they can keep up improved play over the long haul of the season. Win or lose this week, that doesn't change. It just means they are off to a good start. Remember, the bills started 4-0 as recently as 2008.
Understandable. I agree that the Bills should have won a couple of those games. However, something that has haunted the Bills for a number of years now is the inability to beat good teams. The Chiefs are obviously a bad team. The Raiders...hard to say right now. But for now, people are still carrying around the weight of the season we started 4-0 against bad teams.

We know the Pats are a good team, even with all the injuries. Would beating them guarantee playoffs or anything? Of course not. But it would go a LONG way towards reversing people's perceptions of the team and their penchant for losing to good teams.

And as I've said in other threads, even if we lose, that doesn't take away from what we've done so far. We would still have plenty of opportunity to do well in the remaining 13 games, and could possibly still make the playoffs.

I'm mostly just interested in the psyche of Bills fans, especially ones who predicted our team's utter demise this season.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 02:18 PM

Because how I would feel IF we win, or how anyone else would feel for that matter, is irrelevant if we don't win.

If we don't win, everything in this thread becomes meaningless. If we do win, let's have the "How does the win change your view of the team" thread on Monday.
Because all these threads actually mean something anyway? It's a freaking message board.

So Op, are you saying we can't talk about the future? As in all your doomsday predictions in the preseason about how the OL will suck, about how the team isn't good...that's meaningless as well? And C-gal's prediction thread is meaningless. I guess talking about ANY FUTURE GAMES is pointless as well. Because they haven't happened yet, win or loss. Just because one might be "more realistic" than the other doesn't mean squat because neither has happened yet.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:22 PM

It is NOT irrelevant Bryan. We spend a LOT of time on this board talking about the future...what are your expectations for the season, etc. so it is most definitely NOT irrelevant. I repeat, people's opinions on a "what if" scenario on a message board are most definitely NOT irrelevant.

If you only want to look at the past, like your Monday thread idea suggests, then why not wait until the season is over before we post anything? Let's just dissect the past.

BTW, you never answered the original question....how WOULD a win against the Pats change YOUR opinion of the team and season?

Our discussions of the future rarely, if ever, depend on a specific hypothetical event to occur. It's more along the lines of "how do you think this player will do?" Or "how many games do you think we'll win this year?"

If you want to go down this road, why not discuss "Who do you think we're going to beat with our home field advantage in the divisional playoff round?"

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:24 PM

Because all these threads actually mean something anyway? It's a freaking message board.

So Op, are you saying we can't talk about the future? As in all your doomsday predictions in the preseason about how the OL will suck, about how the team isn't good...that's meaningless as well? And C-gal's prediction thread is meaningless. I guess talking about ANY FUTURE GAMES is pointless as well. Because they haven't happened yet, win or loss. Just because one might be "more realistic" than the other doesn't mean squat because neither has happened yet.

See my previous posts. NONE of those threads are dependent on a presumptuous hypothetical. They are based on the guys actually on the team already and how the team played in preseason.

Nobody said anything about not discussing the future. There's a world of difference between discussing what we think will happen, and making up a scenario then discussing how we'd react to it.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 02:28 PM

Our discussions of the future rarely, if ever, depend on a specific hypothetical event to occur. It's more along the lines of "how do you think this player will do?" Or "how many games do you think we'll win this year?"
Oh, right, because SPECIFICS make ALL the difference. :rolleyes:

But if hypotheticals are phrased in generalities, well then they have meaning!

If you want to go down this road, why not discuss "Who do you think we're going to beat with our home field advantage in the divisional playoff round?"
Because it's a completely differently phrased question. Your question has absolutely no "if" to it, so you aren't presenting it as a hypothetical.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:32 PM

Oh, right, because SPECIFICS make ALL the difference. :rolleyes:

But if hypotheticals are phrased in generalities, well then they have meaning!

Because it's a completely differently phrased question. Your question has absolutely no "if" to it, so you aren't presenting it as a hypothetical.

Specifics make a lot of difference. Well, not for justa, but for the rest of us.

There is a difference between a prediction and a hypothetical. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

trapezeus

09-22-2011, 02:32 PM

the chargers will win the west because the raiders, the broncos and the chiefs wont.

the chargers have been off to their typical lackidasical start with Norv Turner. They still are making a lot of mistakes and shooting themselves in the foot.

Bills have as good a shot of winning this game based on the last two games as the patriots. and in some ways, are even more likely to win.

As for campbell throwing for 300 yards, 50 came on one play, the other 100 came with leodis being a waste of space. If the bills can figure a way out to provide leodis some help and remain stout against the run, which they are as they shut down 2 very good runners to under 100 yards, then the bills can win this game.

mysticsoto

09-22-2011, 02:33 PM

See my previous posts. NONE of those threads are dependent on a presumptuous hypothetical. They are based on the guys actually on the team already and how the team played in preseason.

Nobody said anything about not discussing the future. There's a world of difference between discussing what we think will happen, and making up a scenario then discussing how we'd react to it.

So does this mean you are going to cut the bullcrap negativity posts that you had ALL OFFSEASON LONG? You know those presumptuous posts you made about how bad we were going to be, etc, etc.

You were being just as hypothetical...except in a different negative direction. So did you particularly like it if someone would tell you, "Why don't you stop being presumptuous about what's going to happen and wait until the 1st game - AND THEN we can talk about how good or bad we are."

You're being a total hypocrite!!!

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:34 PM

As for campbell throwing for 300 yards, 50 came on one play, the other 100 came with leodis being a waste of space. If the bills can figure a way out to provide leodis some help and remain stout against the run, which they are as they shut down 2 very good runners to under 100 yards, then the bills can win this game.

If Brady can throw a 99 yard pass against the Dolphins, he can equal a 50 yard pass against the Bills.

And McKelvin will still be a waste of space against the Patriots.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 02:36 PM

See my previous posts. NONE of those threads are dependent on a presumptuous hypothetical. They are based on the guys actually on the team already and how the team played in preseason.

Nobody said anything about not discussing the future. There's a world of difference between discussing what we think will happen, and making up a scenario then discussing how we'd react to it.
Yes, they are. People are predicting what hasn't happened. No games had been played when those things were being discussed. Nothing had happened, people make comments all the time about the season, when none of the games had occurred yet.

Nobody is making anything up. It's a simple question. I'm assuming the discussion police will be arresting Miyagi and Hurkey soon for talking about running around naked IF we beat the Patriots?

There is no "world of difference." That is completely in your imagination. It's a message board. Nothing is worth anything here, and the fact that you pretend certain discussions about the future are on such a higher plane than a hypothetical question makes you look really dumb.

How exactly is this different from you saying we won't be visiting the red zone (i.e. kicking 30-yard FG's) with this offensive line? That sounds like making up a scenario to me.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:36 PM

So does this mean you are going to cut the bullcrap negativity posts that you had ALL OFFSEASON LONG? You know those presumptuous posts you made about how bad we were going to be, etc, etc.

You were being just as hypothetical...except in a different negative direction. So did you particularly like it if someone would tell you, "Why don't you stop being presumptuous about what's going to happen and wait until the 1st game - AND THEN we can talk about how good or bad we are."

You're being a total hypocrite!!!

It's not hypocrisy.

I was not creating a hypothetical situation. I was merely saying how I thought the team would do. I never said anything that was predicated on an assumed win (or assumed loss for that matter).

There is a difference between a prediction and a hypothetical. If you can't see it, I don't know what to tell you.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:39 PM

Yes, they are. People are predicting what hasn't happened. No games had been played when those things were being discussed. Nothing had happened, people make comments all the time about the season, when none of the games had occurred yet.

Nobody is making anything up. It's a simple question. I'm assuming the discussion police will be arresting Miyagi and Hurkey soon for talking about running around naked IF we beat the Patriots?

There is no "world of difference." That is completely in your imagination. It's a message board. Nothing is worth anything here, and the fact that you pretend certain discussions about the future are on such a higher plane than a hypothetical question makes you look really dumb.

How exactly is this different from you saying we won't be visiting the red zone (i.e. kicking 30-yard FG's) with this offensive line? That sounds like making up a scenario to me.

Lmao- you got bested so pretend that I made up the fact that two different things are actually different.

Nice try, but it isn't going to work.

Trying to adequately predict what will happen based on limited information, and doing a good job of it, is most certainly on a higher plane than coming up with a hypothetical feel-good scenario and asking people how they would react to it.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 02:39 PM

Specifics make a lot of difference. Well, not for justa, but for the rest of us.

There is a difference between a prediction and a hypothetical. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
How are predictions not hypothetical? They're predictions because they haven't happened yet. You know, that whole thing about "reality" that you were talking about earlier in this thread?

OK, let me change the thread here. I predict the Bills will beat the Patriots 27-20. Let's talk about how a win like that would change people's view on the season.

How about that? Does that make this discussion worthwhile and meaningful?

trapezeus

09-22-2011, 02:40 PM

bills are making adjustment these days. i think it's pretty clear that leodis needs to either go or get some help. if they think they have a solution to double the mckelvin side of the field and provide adequate pressure, then why not?

you are poo-pooing everything as though this is a jauron team or a team that hasn't kind of shown a knack of catching the obvious. we don't know if they'll make the right adjustments, but they aren't walking into a shooting gallery unarmed like in the past.

we have to wait to see the result,s but i think this team can hang with the patriots specifically because the of the last two weeks for both teams.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 02:41 PM

If Brady can throw a 99 yard pass against the Dolphins, he can equal a 50 yard pass against the Bills.

And McKelvin will still be a waste of space against the Patriots.
Do I see an "IF" in this post? Looks hypothetical to me.

Oh, right, I see that assuming McKelvin won't do anything against the Patriots is appropriate. So if I assume we'll beat the Patriots...is that better?

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 02:43 PM

give it up Psubills. Anything that has a postive outcome even if it's theoretical drives OP nuts. Noticed how he's hardly posted this last 2 weeks? If we lose to the Pats, he'll be all over the place whining.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:46 PM

Do I see an "IF" in this post? Looks hypothetical to me.

Oh, right, I see that assuming McKelvin won't do anything against the Patriots is appropriate. So if I assume we'll beat the Patriots...is that better?

No, Brady really DID throw for a 99 yard pass against the Dolphins. There's no reason to think he can't do it again.

That's a prediction based on limited past information. Not a pie-in-the-sky hypothetical pulled out of thin air. And I'm not asking how people would react if Brady did that- I'm merely saying he's likely to do it again.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:47 PM

mysticsoto

09-22-2011, 02:47 PM

It's not hypocrisy.

I was not creating a hypothetical situation. I was merely saying how I thought the team would do. I never said anything that was predicated on an assumed win (or assumed loss for that matter).

There is a difference between a prediction and a hypothetical. If you can't see it, I don't know what to tell you.

It is hypocrisy. And who are you to say predictions are allowed in a message board and hypotheticals aren't? Does the TOS state that hypotheticals are not allowed? Then anyone has the right to post any hypothetical they want without being harassed by you. Period.

Truth be told, you have very little so far to be negative about and it's killing you inside. This thread was just the one that pushed you to your breaking point. You really can't stand any kind of optimism even in the form of a hypothetical can you.

There must be a name for this kind of sickness...

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 02:52 PM

I was on vacation.

Suuuuure! :rolleyes:

psubills62

09-22-2011, 02:53 PM

Lmao- you got bested so pretend that I made up the fact that two different things are actually different.

Nice try, but it isn't going to work.

Trying to adequately predict what will happen based on limited information, and doing a good job of it, is most certainly on a higher plane than coming up with a hypothetical feel-good scenario and asking people how they would react to it.
Got bested? :lol: You're full of crap in this entire thread. Nothing you've said is worth anything.

None of this was meant to be a "feel-good scenario." It's a question that tells me what beating the Patriots is worth to people.

Higher plane? Don't make me laugh. Making predictions is actually worse than hypothetical questions. Predictions are assumptions. Even if they're based on logic, that doesn't mean they'll come true. People could have logically assumed we were going to lose to the Chiefs in the first week - untrue and worthless now. People could have assumed our OL would be bad this season - so far untrue and worthless. Hypotheticals are admitted unknowns. Nobody's pretending they're real. It's simply a question. It's not creating a fantasy world, like you seem to think, because it's a question.

And I love how now you put qualifiers on the predictions. "Trying to adequately predict what will happen based on limited information and doing a good job of it." What a load of crap. How are your predictions turning out right now? Not so good. So obviously your preseason posts were on a lower plane.

Mad Bomber

09-22-2011, 02:56 PM

Our discussions of the future rarely, if ever, depend on a specific hypothetical event to occur. It's more along the lines of "how do you think this player will do?" Or "how many games do you think we'll win this year?"

If you want to go down this road, why not discuss "Who do you think we're going to beat with our home field advantage in the divisional playoff round?"
Our discussions of the future rarely, if ever, depend on a specific hypothetical event to occur. Well, this one does...what the hell is wrong with that? I frankly have not posted a hell of a lot on this board lately because of the intense criticism that is laid on anyone who actually gives an OPINION. Hypothetical events? EVERYTHING, and I repeat, EVERYTHING that happens in the future is hypothetical. That's what this thread is all about.

There was no DEPEND in this question. It was simply "IF". What part of "IF" don't you understand?

You are WAY overthinking this thing, my friend. I thought it had the possibility of generating some conversation (both positive and negative) about the future.

You came in and pissed on the thread. I like you a LOT, Bryan. We have spoken on the phone many times, and I have met you face to face on more than one occasion, but your insistence on "wait to see what happens" totally ruins the original intent of this thread. IMO this is destructive.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 02:58 PM

It is hypocrisy. And who are you to say predictions are allowed in a message board and hypotheticals aren't? Does the TOS state that hypotheticals are not allowed? Then anyone has the right to post any hypothetical they want without being harassed by you. Period.

Truth be told, you have very little so far to be negative about and it's killing you inside. This thread was just the one that pushed you to your breaking point. You really can't stand any kind of optimism even in the form of a hypothetical can you.

There must be a name for this kind of sickness...

Predictions are a part of all sports discussions.

Hypotheticals- or at least this particular one- is based on a happy-go-lucky feel-good presumptuous scenario.

No, it's not against TOS, but that doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous and presumptuous.

I don't know why you people think I have this dire need to be negative. The reality is that since this board has been in existence, there has been a lot of bad about this team. You guys like to play this shoot the messenger game so you don't have to deal with it, but it is what it is. And I've given this team a lot of compliments about the last two games.

But, that isn't good enough for you guys. You still want to come up with happy-go-lucky feel-good scenarios, and criticize me for being "negative" when I point out that it's ridiculous and presumptuous.

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 02:59 PM

, but your insistence on "wait to see what happens" totally ruins the original intent of this thread. IMO this is destructive.
actually OP hated the "wait and see" approach. But since the bills are winning and it's killing him, he has adopted that approach.

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 03:01 PM

I don't know why you people think I have this dire need to be negative.

:roflmao:

psubills62

09-22-2011, 03:03 PM

No, Brady really DID throw for a 99 yard pass against the Dolphins. There's no reason to think he can't do it again.
And the Bills did beat the Patriots before. No reason to think they can't do it again. See how I did that?

What you seem to be missing is that predictions are an assertion...which includes the word "will," as in "Brady will throw a pass longer than 50 yards." Saying he "can" doesn't mean anything - it's a hypothetical. Just because he can doesn't mean he will. So are you predicting or hypothesizing?

That's a prediction based on limited past information. Not a pie-in-the-sky hypothetical pulled out of thin air. And I'm not asking how people would react if Brady did that- I'm merely saying he's likely to do it again.
So the asking people how they'd react...that's your issue? And it's not exactly how people would react - it's specifically how they'd view a win with regards to the rest of the season.

So I guess you haven't gotten around to attacking Mark Miller yet for his thread entitled "If we win this Sunday"?

And it's not a pie-in-the-sky hypothetical. We're either going to win or lose. Obviously losing is the most likely scenario, but based on the EVIDENCE, we should be competitive.

Ickybaluky

09-22-2011, 03:03 PM

the chargers have been off to their typical lackidasical start with Norv Turner. They still are making a lot of mistakes and shooting themselves in the foot.

Bills have as good a shot of winning this game based on the last two games as the patriots. and in some ways, are even more likely to win.

I don't know, I look at the Chargers and see a pretty good team. They can run, they can throw, they play good defense. That is a quality team and a quality win. You can say they "shot themselves in the foot", but the Pats didn't exactly play their best game, either. They had some critical penalties, blown coverages, etc. In the end, one team makes enough plays to win, and the other doesn't.

You can play that game with the Bills, too, right? If the Raiders hadn't shot themselves in the foot and choked a big lead? In the end, it was a win for one team and a loss for the other, and you can't discount that.

No matter what it is impressive for the Pats to put up over 500 yards and 35 points on a pretty good San Diego defense. That is the same defense that was rated #1 in 2010, and held the Vikings to 187 yards of offense in week 1. They did that a week after putting up over 600 yards of offense against a Miami defense that ranked 6th in the NFL in 2010.

OpIv37

09-22-2011, 03:04 PM

Got bested? :lol: You're full of crap in this entire thread. Nothing you've said is worth anything.

None of this was meant to be a "feel-good scenario." It's a question that tells me what beating the Patriots is worth to people.

Higher plane? Don't make me laugh. Making predictions is actually worse than hypothetical questions. Predictions are assumptions. Even if they're based on logic, that doesn't mean they'll come true. People could have logically assumed we were going to lose to the Chiefs in the first week - untrue and worthless now. People could have assumed our OL would be bad this season - so far untrue and worthless. Hypotheticals are admitted unknowns. Nobody's pretending they're real. It's simply a question. It's not creating a fantasy world, like you seem to think, because it's a question.

And I love how now you put qualifiers on the predictions. "Trying to adequately predict what will happen based on limited information and doing a good job of it." What a load of crap. How are your predictions turning out right now? Not so good. So obviously your preseason posts were on a lower plane.

Go ahead and criticize my predictions now. It's a good way to change the topic since you are getting bested in this argument. But, if you want to go down that route: It's been two games. I've been right since this board has been in existence and there's a lot of football left to play.

Getting back to the topic at hand: Predictions are not assumptions. They can be based on assumptions, but an assumption means something is accepted to be true. If you're already assuming it to be true, then you can't predict it.

And yes, predictions can be wrong- that's the fun and challenge in doing it.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 03:06 PM

Well, well, would you look at this post:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?p=3523450&postcount=8

If we lose and, say, Kyle Williams, has a bad game, then I'm not going to come on here and say Kyle Williams sucks. Good players sometimes have bad games.

It seems to me in this post Op is breaking all the rules that he's set as "legitimate discussion" in this very thread. He's got all the elements:

1) hypothetical scenario for the future
2) scenario that is unlikely based on most previous evidence
3) discussion of how he'd react after that hypothetical scenario

Only difference is that it isn't "feel-good," it's a blatantly negative hypothetical. I'm sure that will make ALL the difference.

mysticsoto

09-22-2011, 03:06 PM

Predictions are a part of all sports discussions.

Hypotheticals- or at least this particular one- is based on a happy-go-lucky feel-good presumptuous scenario.

No, it's not against TOS, but that doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous and presumptuous.

I don't know why you people think I have this dire need to be negative. The reality is that since this board has been in existence, there has been a lot of bad about this team. You guys like to play this shoot the messenger game so you don't have to deal with it, but it is what it is. And I've given this team a lot of compliments about the last two games.

But, that isn't good enough for you guys. You still want to come up with happy-go-lucky feel-good scenarios, and criticize me for being "negative" when I point out that it's ridiculous and presumptuous.

Hypotheticals are done all the time - even by analysts. It's done to generate conversation and opinions. You're the one who has assigned a "feel good" presumptousness to it.

If we think you have a dire need to be negative, it's b'cse that's pretty much all you post. 99% of your posts are being negative about something. So if you think 1 or 2 posts in the last 2 wks from you are going to undo the fact that 2998 out of the last 3000 posts of yours was negative...it's now the stigma that you carry b'cse that's the type of person you are.

psubills62

09-22-2011, 03:10 PM

Go ahead and criticize my predictions now. It's a good way to change the topic since you are getting bested in this argument. But, if you want to go down that route: It's been two games. I've been right since this board has been in existence and there's a lot of football left to play.

Getting back to the topic at hand: Predictions are not assumptions. They can be based on assumptions, but an assumption means something is accepted to be true. If you're already assuming it to be true, then you can't predict it.

And yes, predictions can be wrong- that's the fun and challenge in doing it.
Let's get down to the nitty gritty. It's pretty obvious what your problem is - that's it's a positive hypothetical. That's what's bothering you - not that it's hypothetical - that it's positive.

Here's a fact: this is the NFL. Teams can win or lose, no in-between. Based on the evidence at hand for this season, there is a realistic possibility that the Bills could win. My question is based on one of two realistic scenarios happening. Why is this such a big issue?

mysticsoto

09-22-2011, 03:13 PM

Well, well, would you look at this post:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?p=3523450&postcount=8

It seems to me in this post Op is breaking all the rules that he's set as "legitimate discussion" in this very thread. He's got all the elements:

1) hypothetical scenario for the future
2) scenario that is unlikely based on most previous evidence
3) discussion of how he'd react after that hypothetical scenario

Only difference is that it isn't "feel-good," it's a blatantly negative hypothetical. I'm sure that will make ALL the difference.

Ouch. Op just got ***** slapped.

http://www.loltimeout.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/*****-Slap.jpg (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KJkIXGlntOAn0AVnOjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBpcGszamw0BHNlYwNmcC1pbWcEc2xrA2ltZw--/SIG=12gse7o3k/EXP=1316751174/**http%3a//www.loltimeout.com/funny-pictures/monster-*****-slap/)

psubills62

09-22-2011, 03:16 PM

Here's my problem, Op:

- You started out the thread by saying it's not worth discussing because it "hasn't happened yet."

- Now your argument has devolved into saying predictions (note: which are about games and things that haven't happened yet) are so much better than hypotheticals, because they're based on logic, etc.

Your argument has severely changed throughout the thread. As a result, you haven't been consistent about what your problem with my question is. The only thing you've been consistent about is that it's positive, and "feel-good." That's all. So there's no wonder people consider you a negative person. You can't even remotely consider the possibility that the Bills will win.

justasportsfan

09-22-2011, 03:20 PM

Well, well, would you look at this post:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?p=3523450&postcount=8

It seems to me in this post Op is breaking all the rules that he's set as "legitimate discussion" in this very thread. He's got all the elements:

1) hypothetical scenario for the future
2) scenario that is unlikely based on most previous evidence
3) discussion of how he'd react after that hypothetical scenario

Only difference is that it isn't "feel-good," it's a blatantly negative hypothetical. I'm sure that will make ALL the difference.

I told you so!!!!! Anything positive OP shrieks higher than Fitz but in a *****y manner. Anything positive he yaps like Busta Rhymes.

and then he tells us...

I don't know why you people think I have this dire need to be negative.

Bill Cody

09-22-2011, 03:31 PM

We beat the Raiders. That's a real win.

We haven't even played the Pats yet, so that is a hypothetical win.

If you don't understand the difference, then I can't help you.

And no, I won't ignore it. It's an open forum, and if something seems pointless to me, then I'm going to call it out. You're not the post police and you don't get to tell me what I can and can't post.

1) Your 1st post was telling us what we should or shouldn't post. Sorry you don't get to decide what threads are relevant or when we get to talk about anything.

2) The purpose of this board is Bills talk. Talking about how we'd feel IF we pull a big upset is a fair topic. Don't like that? Tough ****.

RoscoeMagic

09-22-2011, 03:37 PM

A win would change my view greatly. I thought we'd be .500, but if we go in Sunday and beat NE, I think we're instantly no longer "pretenders" and are legitamate contenders for a playoff spot in the AFC. AFC East would even be up for grabs now. It would change a lot. People around the league would take notice, we'd be huge in the media, and it would finally get that NE monkey that's been there for 8 years off our backs.

Well, I guess it would depend on how we won. A "lucky" play like Brady fumbling a QB kneel and we take it in for 6 with 10 seconds left, obviously that's a NE L and not necessarily a Buffalo W. If we win handily like week 1 though, or tight comeback like week 2, then my first paragraph.

Mad Bomber

09-22-2011, 05:25 PM

Mad Bomber

09-22-2011, 05:29 PM

1) Your 1st post was telling us what we should or shouldn't post. Sorry you don't get to decide what threads are relevant or when we get to talk about anything.

2) The purpose of this board is Bills talk. Talking about how we'd feel IF we pull a big upset is a fair topic. Don't like that? Tough ****.
Thank you!

TigerJ

09-22-2011, 09:15 PM

A win against the Patriots and a playoff bid becomes much more than a fond hope. I'll start to think of it as a very real possibility.

YardRat

09-22-2011, 09:25 PM

If anybody doesn't outright state that a win against the Patriots this Sunday would give them the belief, at the very least for a week, that we could beat anybody on our schedule the rest of the way , they would be lying.

BertSquirtgum

09-22-2011, 09:28 PM

Basically, to me, a win against the Patriots means that this team is legit. I have been waiting so long for this. Hopefully, these guys can come together and pull this off.

Mad Bomber

09-22-2011, 09:33 PM

Go ahead and criticize my predictions now. It's a good way to change the topic since you are getting bested in this argument. But, if you want to go down that route: It's been two games. I've been right since this board has been in existence and there's a lot of football left to play.

Getting back to the topic at hand: Predictions are not assumptions. They can be based on assumptions, but an assumption means something is accepted to be true. If you're already assuming it to be true, then you can't predict it.

And yes, predictions can be wrong- that's the fun and challenge in doing it.
You have totally missed the point of this thread. It's not about predictions, and the TOPIC is a simple "what would you feel IF". Can't you think in really simplistic situational scenarios? Bryan, I usually don't respond to your negative posts, because I agree that a lot of them have merit, but your criticism of people's opinions of how they would feel after a victory is frankly off base. When did you become the opinion police?

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 06:26 AM

You have totally missed the point of this thread. It's not about predictions, and the TOPIC is a simple "what would you feel IF". Can't you think in really simplistic situational scenarios? Bryan, I usually don't respond to your negative posts, because I agree that a lot of them have merit, but your criticism of people's opinions of how they would feel after a victory is frankly off base. When did you become the opinion police?

I didn't criticize anyone's opinion specifically. I criticized the need to create a feel-good scenario then speculate on how we would feel in said scenario. It's like thinking about what you would do if you won the lottery. It might be fun to think about for a minute or two, but the reality is that you're not going to win the lottery and eventually you have to snap back to reality.

When I first responded to this thread yesterday, the thread right underneath it was something like "Keys to beating the Patriots" with the subtitle "and we WILL beat them." Then I go into the threads and almost every single thread has multiple people predicting a win.

Look, I'm not alone in this. You guys (well, the overwhelming majority of you) are Bills fans too. You guys lived through the last decade with me and you should understand where the negativity comes from. When I log in and I see all of this stuff, it just makes this board and us as fans look ridiculous.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 06:28 AM

Let's get down to the nitty gritty. It's pretty obvious what your problem is - that's it's a positive hypothetical. That's what's bothering you - not that it's hypothetical - that it's positive.

Here's a fact: this is the NFL. Teams can win or lose, no in-between. Based on the evidence at hand for this season, there is a realistic possibility that the Bills could win. My question is based on one of two realistic scenarios happening. Why is this such a big issue?

Based on this team's past performance and epic ability to choke in big games- that they still haven't proven they can overcome, it's not nearly as realistic as many on here seem to think.

That's my problem.

NOT THE DUDE...

09-23-2011, 07:51 AM

i had the bills at 9-7, if they win i will say 12-4

psubills62

09-23-2011, 09:17 AM

Based on this team's past performance and epic ability to choke in big games- that they still haven't proven they can overcome, it's not nearly as realistic as many on here seem to think.

That's my problem.
So then your issue is with the degree of realistic possibility? Then how come your initial posts were only talking about how the game hasn't happened yet? Based on your first few posts, I would think that even talking about a loss would be an issue with you.

And by the way, as I've said REPEATEDLY in this thread - nobody ever pretended there was a good chance that the Bills would win. That's why there's that huge IF in the first post.

Your argument gets weaker every time. Just because something is less likely to happen than something else means we can't discuss it? Or it's pointless to discuss it?

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 09:32 AM

So then your issue is with the degree of realistic possibility? Then how come your initial posts were only talking about how the game hasn't happened yet? Based on your first few posts, I would think that even talking about a loss would be an issue with you.

And by the way, as I've said REPEATEDLY in this thread - nobody ever pretended there was a good chance that the Bills would win. That's why there's that huge IF in the first post.

Your argument gets weaker every time. Just because something is less likely to happen than something else means we can't discuss it? Or it's pointless to discuss it?

You've already heard my argument.You can sit here and say that no one is pretending there's a good chance we'll win, but that's simply not the case. Take off your blinders and read what people have been posting all over this board.

It's presumptuous and ridiculous to speculate about a win that hasn't happened yet. And when people come to this board and see all this talk about beating the Patriots because we had two good games, it makes the board and the fan base in general look ridiculous.

If you disagree, fine. I can't stop you from being wrong.

Bill Cody

09-23-2011, 09:33 AM

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 09:38 AM

just stop

If you don't like it, stop reading.

Bill Cody

09-23-2011, 09:46 AM

If you don't like it, stop reading.

Don't you have a 5 day pad to change or something? You made your argument, several times. That argument has been graded a FAIL by everyone who has posted in the thread.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 09:54 AM

Don't you have a 5 day pad to change or something? You made your argument, several times. That argument has been graded a FAIL by everyone who has posted in the thread.

lmao- don't you people have more ether to inhale to fuel your happy-go-lucky hallucinations?

Oh, and psubillsfan made his argument several times as well, but I don't see you complaining about that, because it's not the number of times that bothers you. It's hearing something that you don't want to hear and are incapable of arguing against.

And I don't care how many people rate it a fail. Being right isn't determined by majority opinion.

It's still ridiculous and presumptuous to discuss a hypothetical win.

justasportsfan

09-23-2011, 09:59 AM

lmao- don't you people have more ether to inhale to fuel your happy-go-lucky hallucinations?

Oh, and psubillsfan made his argument several times as well, but I don't see you complaining about that, because it's not the number of times that bothers you. It's hearing something that you don't want to hear and are incapable of arguing against.

And I don't care how many people rate it a fail. Being right isn't determined by majority opinion.

It's still ridiculous and presumptuous to discuss a hypothetical win.

You got PWNED already.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 10:00 AM

You got PWNED already.

you saying that doesn't make it so.

justasportsfan

09-23-2011, 10:00 AM

you saying that doesn't make it so.

It is so.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 10:08 AM

It is so.

Say what you want. It doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculous and presumptuous to discuss a hypothetical win.

psubills62

09-23-2011, 10:09 AM

You've already heard my argument.You can sit here and say that no one is pretending there's a good chance we'll win, but that's simply not the case. Take off your blinders and read what people have been posting all over this board.

It's presumptuous and ridiculous to speculate about a win that hasn't happened yet. And when people come to this board and see all this talk about beating the Patriots because we had two good games, it makes the board and the fan base in general look ridiculous.

If you disagree, fine. I can't stop you from being wrong.
Yes, I've heard your argument change repeatedly. Only thing that's consistent is your total and unrelenting aversion towards anything remotely positive.

You know, I'll bet there are some puppies out there that are a little too happy and need to be kicked. Maybe you should introduce some realism into their world.

psubills62

09-23-2011, 10:11 AM

justasportsfan

09-23-2011, 10:12 AM

Say what you want. It doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculous and presumptuous to discuss a hypothetical win.

I'm not talking hypotheticals anymore , I'm talking FATCS! You got PWNED!!!

Philagape

09-23-2011, 10:14 AM

To answer the perfectly legit question, I'd say that it wouldn't change my view of the season much more than it has already been changed in the first two weeks.
We've already seen Fitz take his game to another level, and the team respond to him like no QB in recent memory.
We've already seen the O-line turn night into day from the preseason.
We've already seen a bunch of no-names light up the sky.
You know that idea about developing teams suddenly clicking in their second year together? Sure, it hasn't happened much before, but it's happening now. They're already beating the odds.
Because of those developments, my season outlook has gone from 6-10 to conceivably 10-6. They can sweep Miami, beat the Bengals, Giants, Redskins, Titans, Broncos, and take one from the Jets. These aren't predictions yet, but it's legitimately possible.
This is regardless of what they do against the Pats, who I still think will win Sunday, but it's not a slam-dunk. If the Bills win, it won't be a David-slaying-Goliath miracle as much as an up-and-coming team pulling off an upset. It happens.

Philagape

09-23-2011, 10:25 AM

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 10:26 AM

A hypothetical, by definition, isn't presumptuous.
To presume is to take for granted as being true. "What will we think WHEN the Bills win" is presumptuous. No one's doing that.
A hypothetical is a fantasy, and I don't mean that as implying impossibility.

talking about a win in a game that hasn't been played yet is presumptuous. You're arguing semantics.

And look around the board- it's simply not true to say "no one's doing that."

Bill Cody

09-23-2011, 10:28 AM

Say what you want. It doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculous and presumptuous to discuss a hypothetical win.

FACT: It can't be presumptious if it's hypothetical. Words do having meaning.

As far as being ridiculous, that could only possibly be true if you give us a 0% chance of winning. Otherwise why is it any more ridicuolus than talking about anything that hasn't happened yet? If we narrowed down the discussions on this board to past events the board would have about 90% fewer threads and you'd have 90% fewer posts, think that one through Mr. Nuclear Winter.

Philagape

09-23-2011, 10:32 AM

talking about a win in a game that hasn't been played yet is presumptuous. You're arguing semantics.

And look around the board- it's simply not true to say "no one's doing that."

There are different kinds of talking. There's assuming, and there's fantasizing. Very significant semantics, because one is presumptuous, and the other is not.

And yes, I was generalizing. Thank you for calling me on the literal accuracy of my words, even if you dismiss the same for you as semantics.

psubills62

09-23-2011, 10:32 AM

Well, despite the awful direction this thread has gone (Op tends to have that effect), I'd like to say thank you to everyone that answered the question.

I'd have to think that IF we managed to win on Sunday, the Bills would be legitimately seen as playoff contenders. I don't think anyone can use excuses like they did with Baltimore and Pittsburgh last year (the opponent had no gameplan, didn't take us seriously, were sleep-walking through it, etc.). New England knows we're coming and knows we're stoked for this game. We're not 0-8, we're not being overlooked anymore. They have no excuse if they lose, and the pressure is obviously on them.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 11:12 AM

FACT: It can't be presumptious if it's hypothetical. Words do having meaning.

As far as being ridiculous, that could only possibly be true if you give us a 0% chance of winning. Otherwise why is it any more ridicuolus than talking about anything that hasn't happened yet? If we narrowed down the discussions on this board to past events the board would have about 90% fewer threads and you'd have 90% fewer posts, think that one through Mr. Nuclear Winter.
lmao- you're playing the semantics game too.

It's simply a matter of wording- "if" vs "when"- either way, we are discussing a win in a game that hasn't been played. FACT: by definition, that is presumptuous.

And your second paragraph makes no sense at all. I haven't officially lost tonight's lottery drawing yet, but it's still ridiculous for me to sit around all day talking about what I'd do with the money if I won.

Bill Cody

09-23-2011, 11:29 AM

lmao- you're playing the semantics game too.

It's simply a matter of wording- "if" vs "when"- either way, we are discussing a win in a game that hasn't been played. FACT: by definition, that is presumptuous.

:laughing: That makes zero sense. You're either too dumb to understand what the word "if" means or you're just being stubborn, perhaps because you can't admit the real truth which PSUBills and Justa have already exposed. Either way you're WRONG.

And your second paragraph makes no sense at all. I haven't officially lost tonight's lottery drawing yet, but it's still ridiculous for me to sit around all day talking about what I'd do with the money if I won.

:laughing: We spent an entire offseason talking about the season to come, the changes in the team and how they'd fit, how well Fitz would do, the potential impact of the draft picks, a million things. We talked about the opener for a month before it happened and we even had a thread predicting the score. All of these things are subject to speculation, opinions, debate, you know THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT ON A MESSAGE BOARD. Bottom line: I guess when you say presumptious it only applies if you're being positive. Because you have HUNDREDS of posts talking about stuff that hasn't happened.

psubills62

09-23-2011, 11:32 AM

lmao- you're playing the semantics game too.

It's simply a matter of wording- "if" vs "when"- either way, we are discussing a win in a game that hasn't been played. FACT: by definition, that is presumptuous.

And your second paragraph makes no sense at all. I haven't officially lost tonight's lottery drawing yet, but it's still ridiculous for me to sit around all day talking about what I'd do with the money if I won.
Should someone tell Op that the only difference between "I look forward to seeing you again" and "kiss my ass" is wording as well?

FlyingDutchman

09-23-2011, 11:41 AM

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 11:45 AM

:laughing: That makes zero sense. You're either too dumb to understand what the word "if" means or you're just being stubborn, perhaps because you can't admit the real truth which PSUBills and Justa have already exposed. Either way you're WRONG.

You're too dumb to understand that the "if" is irrelevant. Whether you put "if" or "when" or any other word in front of it we are STILL discussing a win in a game that hasn't been played. You want to play this stupid semantics game because you can't admit the truth that I've already exposed. If you can't see that, then you, psubillsfan and justa are all WRONG.

:laughing: We spent an entire offseason talking about the season to come, the changes in the team and how they'd fit, how well Fitz would do, the potential impact of the draft picks, a million things. We talked about the opener for a month before it happened and we even had a thread predicting the score. All of these things are subject to speculation, opinions, debate, you know THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT ON A MESSAGE BOARD. Bottom line: I guess when you say presumptious it only applies if you're being positive. Because you have HUNDREDS of posts talking about stuff that hasn't happened.

It has nothing to do with positive or negative. This just goes back to the old "shoot the messenger" game. NONE of those things were predicated on a specific event, ie a WIN IN A GAME THAT HASN'T BEEN PLAYED YET, like this thread is.

I've already explained this: there is a world of difference between creating a happy-go-lucky hypothetical outcome and talking about how you'd feel if it happened, and using limited available information to accurately predict what will happen

If you can't see that key difference, then you are WRONG and there is nothing I can do to help you.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 11:46 AM

You guys are wasting your time. Hed rather go down swinging looking like a fool than ever admit he might be wrong...It only took me 500 battles like this to realize...Just save yourselves time, slam your head on your keyboard and be done with him

Except that I'm not a fool and I'm not wrong. It's stupid and presumptuous to talk about a win in a game that hasn't been played yet. Period.

justasportsfan

09-23-2011, 11:51 AM

You guys are wasting your time. Hed rather go down swinging looking like a fool than ever admit he might be wrong...It only took me 500 battles like this to realize...Just save yourselves time, slam your head on your keyboard and be done with him

It may be a waste of time but sometimes its fun to watch a midget play center in basketball because he insist he is made to play the position.

psubills62

09-23-2011, 11:57 AM

I've already explained this: there is a world of difference between creating a happy-go-lucky hypothetical outcome and talking about how you'd feel if it happened, and using limited available information to accurately predict what will happen

If you can't see that key difference, then you are WRONG and there is nothing I can do to help you.
And yet the problem with the bolded is that you're still talking about something that hasn't happened yet.

This is where you've constantly been changing your argument. Either you don't like talking about things that haven't happened yet, period (i.e. predictions and hypotheticals), or it's the degree of possibility that bothers you.

And in fact, it's neither of those - it's the fact that we're talking about the possibility (yes, you know that "if" that you keep tossing out - that's where you're wrong, because it only precludes the possibility) of winning. What if we had created a downtrodden, we-hate-ourselves, spiteful world where we lose? Would you have such a problem with it then? Would you be complaining for 4 pages that you're right and everyone else is wrong about what should and shouldn't be discussed on a message board? My "prediction:" no.

You seem to have completely missed the point of this thread. The point was to see if people thought beating a contender meant something. The point was to see if people that a win would mean the Bills were on the right track and see if it made a difference in how people viewed the team as it currently is. Heck, you could insert [Team X] in there and it's still the same thing. I only brought it up now because we're playing the Patriots this weekend.

FlyingDutchman

09-23-2011, 12:01 PM

Except that I'm not a fool and I'm not wrong. Thats not what it looks like to everyone except yourself It's stupid and presumptuous to talk about a win in a game that hasn't been played yet. Period. This whole thread was based on hypothetically if the bills win, how would you feel...whats the big effing deal and why do push back so hard christ

Bill Cody

09-23-2011, 12:01 PM

You're too dumb to understand that the "if" is irrelevant. Whether you put "if" or "when" or any other word in front of it we are STILL discussing a win in a game that hasn't been played. You want to play this stupid semantics game because you can't admit the truth that I've already exposed. If you can't see that, then you, psubillsfan and justa are all WRONG.

We know the game hasn't happened. And you can't stop us from talking about it in any way we want. I'm not sure why it bothers you that we are. But you've failed to dissaude anyone with your hollow arguments. It's really one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. It's like a guy at work who's up for promotion talking about how he'd feel if he got the job. What in hell is wrong with that?

It has nothing to do with positive or negative. This just goes back to the old "shoot the messenger" game. NONE of those things were predicated on a specific event, ie a WIN IN A GAME THAT HASN'T BEEN PLAYED YET, like this thread is.

I've already explained this: there is a world of difference between creating a happy-go-lucky hypothetical outcome and talking about how you'd feel if it happened, and using limited available information to accurately predict what will happen

If you can't see that key difference, then you are WRONG and there is nothing I can do to help you.

It would be happy go lucky if we were all predicting victory. We're not, by and large. You still haven't explained why there is anything wrong with talking about how a potential victory would change our thinking about the team. It would be a very big deal IMHO.

I would now ask anyone that's bothered to read this entire thread that you've highjacked to thank this post if you think OP has been thouroughly and completely humiliated in this thread.

FlyingDutchman

09-23-2011, 12:06 PM

Hes wrong, and theres nothing we can do to help him guys

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 12:08 PM

We know the game hasn't happened. And you can't stop us from talking about it in any way we want. I'm not sure why it bothers you that we are. But you've failed to dissaude anyone with your hollow arguments.

This is correct- I can't stop you from talking about it any way you want. My arguments may not have dissuaded you from being presumptuous and ridiculous, but that doesn't make it any less presumptuous and ridiculous. If that's how you want to be, go right ahead. But don't be surprised when someone like me calls you out on it.

It would be happy go lucky if we were all predicting victory. We're not, by and large. You still haven't explained why there is anything wrong with talking about how a potential victory would change our thinking about the team. It would be a very big deal IMHO.

I would now ask anyone that's bothered to read this entire thread that you've highjacked to thank this post if you think OP has been thouroughly and completely humiliated in this thread.

Actually, I have explained it. This thread is discussing the implications of a win in a game that hasn't been played yet. It's fantasy. It's not prediction. It's not speculation. It's pure happy-go-lucky fantasy. Whether or not you're predicting the win is irrelevant because the discussion is based on the premise that the win has happened.

And the blatant begging for "thanks" is just pathetic.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 12:09 PM

Thats not what it looks like to everyone except yourself

Right or wrong isn't a matter of majority opinion.

FlyingDutchman

09-23-2011, 12:12 PM

Right or wrong isn't a matter of majority opinion.

wrong again

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 12:14 PM

wrong again

well, those are your words, not mine. The only argument you made against my opinion is that everyone thinks I'm wrong. What other people think doesn't make me wrong.

Bill Cody

09-23-2011, 12:15 PM

This is correct- I can't stop you from talking about it any way you want. My arguments may not have dissuaded you from being presumptuous and ridiculous, but that doesn't make it any less presumptuous and ridiculous. If that's how you want to be, go right ahead. But don't be surprised when someone like me calls you out on it.

First off it would never ever be someone like you. There is thankfully only one you and noone else would make such an absurd argument. And consider me "called out". Now STFU.

Actually, I have explained it. This thread is discussing the implications of a win in a game that hasn't been played yet. It's fantasy. It's not prediction. It's not speculation. It's pure happy-go-lucky fantasy. Whether or not you're predicting the win is irrelevant because the discussion is based on the premise that the win has happened.

And the blatant begging for "thanks" is just pathetic.

No, you've tried and failed to explain it. None of the rest of it see it as "fantasy". The anticipation before a big game is what being a fan is all about. If you don't like the premise that's fine we do.

justasportsfan

09-23-2011, 12:15 PM

You're not the post police and you don't get to tell me what I can and can't post.

If by some miracle, we actually win, then we'll discuss it. But it's pointless and presumptuous to discuss hypothetical wins 3 days before the game.

If we do win, let's have the "How does the win change your view of the team" thread on Monday.

:coocoo:

FlyingDutchman

09-23-2011, 12:15 PM

This thread is discussing the implications of a win in a game that hasn't been played yet......It's not speculation..

did you do lousy in school or do you just not hear yourself?

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 12:17 PM

did you do lousy in school or do you just not hear yourself?

ok fine, I'll give you that- poor choice of wording on my part.

That doesn't change my argument though.

justasportsfan

09-23-2011, 12:18 PM

ok fine, I'll give you that- poor choice of wording on my part.

.

PWNED again!!!

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 12:19 PM

First off it would never ever be someone like you. There is thankfully only one you and noone else would make such an absurd argument. And consider me "called out". Now STFU.

lmao- an argument isn't absurd just because no one else would make it. Sorry if I want to live in the real world while the rest of you want to live in the happy-go-lucky world where we've already beaten the Patriots.

No, you've tried and failed to explain it. None of the rest of it see it as "fantasy". The anticipation before a big game is what being a fan is all about. If you don't like the premise that's fine we do.

Your inability to comprehend my explanation isn't the same thing as me failing to explain it.

BertSquirtgum

09-23-2011, 12:33 PM

I just farted. Lets argue about that.

Bill Cody

09-23-2011, 12:44 PM

I just farted. Lets argue about that.

That's ridiculous and presumptious. Oh wait it already happened, guess it's ok.

I hope if it wasn't silent you at least said excuse me. And if was silent I hope you had the good sense to walk away before you got blamed.:nervous:

FlyingDutchman

09-23-2011, 01:00 PM

I just farted. Lets argue about that.

I was leaving a voicemail the other day at work and I was trying to say "cheat sheet or chart"...and it came out.. "shart"....he didnt call me back

Philagape

09-23-2011, 02:06 PM

It's simply a matter of wording- "if" vs "when"- either way, we are discussing a win in a game that hasn't been played. FACT: by definition, that is presumptuous.

No, that is incorrect. Whether it's presumptuous depends entirely on the wording. "If" precludes presumption. That is the indisputable fact.

sdbillsfan2

09-23-2011, 02:31 PM

I learned long ago that op's opinions are of little value to me. I believe he takes the stands he does because he enjoys the attention. He seems to love baiting people into debate. Who knows he might have a box of kleenex close by at all times. But since I don't know him , this may only be speculation. Or is it hypothetical ? oh wait , I predict he'll be using kleenex after his next post. No that can't be it ! Little man complex ? fear of failure. who knows?
Just don't keep feeding the monkey (hypothetically speaking of course) and he may go away. As for me , I'll skip all his posts from now on ....they are all a re- hash of what he's said hundreds of times before . (or more correctly, nearly 60,000 times )

BTW on the subject .. a win against the pats would make my season !!!

WeAreArthurMoates

09-23-2011, 02:44 PM

I always thought we'd win 7-9 games, if we beat New England not only do I think we will go to the playoffs, but we can win the division.

OpIv37

09-23-2011, 04:31 PM

No, that is incorrect. Whether it's presumptuous depends entirely on the wording. "If" precludes presumption. That is the indisputable fact.

we are discussing a win in a game that hasn't happened yet. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do that without presuming the win, no matter what word you put in front of it. That is the indisputable fact.

FlyingDutchman

09-23-2011, 04:38 PM

we are discussing a win in a game that hasn't happened yet. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do that without presuming the win, no matter what word you put in front of it. That is the indisputable fact.

http://www.antifeministtech.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/picarddoublefacepalm.jpg

Philagape

09-23-2011, 05:27 PM

pre·sume (pr-zm)
v. pre·sumed, pre·sum·ing, pre·sumes
v.tr.
1. To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent.
2. To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room.
3. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.

Synonyms: presume, presuppose, postulate, posit, assume
These verbs signify to take something for granted or as being a fact. To presume is to suppose that something is reasonable or possible in the absence of proof to the contrary: "I presume you're tired after the long ride" (Edith Wharton).

Philagape

09-25-2011, 03:50 PM

What a ridiculous, presumptuous thread. Might as well talk about winning the lottery. ;)

justasportsfan

09-25-2011, 03:52 PM

If we don't win, everything in this thread becomes meaningless.

looks like the only thing meaningless were your posts.

PWNED again!!!!!!!

FlyingDutchman

09-25-2011, 04:13 PM

bon appetit OP

http://lation.org/ally/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/vvvvg-9.jpg

FlyingDutchman

09-26-2011, 08:20 AM

You there Op?:whistle:

mysticsoto

09-26-2011, 08:23 AM

**** you Op!!!

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. :)

Go Bills!!!

FlyingDutchman

09-26-2011, 08:25 AM

I didn't criticize anyone's opinion specifically. I criticized the need to create a feel-good scenario then speculate on how we would feel in said scenario. It's like thinking about what you would do if you won the lottery. It might be fun to think about for a minute or two, but the reality is that you're not going to win the lottery and eventually you have to snap back to reality......

When I log in and I see all of this stuff, it just makes this board and us as fans look ridiculous.

Care to admit you were WRONG? and who looks ridiculous now?

OpIv37

09-26-2011, 08:25 AM

You there Op?:whistle:

Yeah, I'm here.

And no, I am absolutely NOT eating any crow over this thread because when it was started, it was still presuming a win 3 days before the game was played.

mikemac2001

09-26-2011, 08:26 AM

Yeah, I'm here.

And no, I am absolutely NOT eating any crow over this thread because when it was started, it was still presuming a win 3 days before the game was played.

gonna agree with him here

this thread was dumb

FlyingDutchman

09-26-2011, 08:28 AM

Yeah, I'm here.

And no, I am absolutely NOT eating any crow over this thread because when it was started, it was still presuming a win 3 days before the game was played.

OK buddy whatever you say, denial is an ugly thing. Well guess what, the Bills winning made this even better bc you were wrong again look like an even bigger jack ass now lol

FlyingDutchman

09-26-2011, 08:35 AM

You should make this your avatar

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Donkey_1_arp_750px.jpg/250px-Donkey_1_arp_750px.jpg

Philagape

09-26-2011, 09:07 AM

Yeah, I'm here.

And no, I am absolutely NOT eating any crow over this thread because when it was started, it was still presuming a win 3 days before the game was played.

Setting aside your continued misuse of the word presume here, what about future threads and posts that actually are presumptuous? What about actual predictions? If being presumptuous is such a crime, then no one can ever make predictions, right?
If someone starts a thread this week saying "If the Bills beat the Bengals ...," will you have the same reaction? Or, before any game?
Or, if anyone were to reverse it and hypothesize a loss in advance? Would that not -- under your definition of the word -- be just as presumptuous?

psubills62

09-26-2011, 09:33 AM

RoscoeMagic

09-26-2011, 09:51 AM

As much as I'd like to shove Op's face in it, this thread didn't need to be legitimized by a win. It was a hypothetical question, and even a loss wouldn't have changed the legitimacy of the thread and question. We've shown that numerous times within 5 pages.

That being said, Op's comments about winning being a pie-in-the-sky hallucination sure make this thread amusing.

So, is everyone living the same dream world where we won? Just wondering. Is it stupid to create ANY thread now that we're in dream land?

Well this is what I said:

A win would change my view greatly. I thought we'd be .500, but if we go in Sunday and beat NE, I think we're instantly no longer "pretenders" and are legitamate contenders for a playoff spot in the AFC. AFC East would even be up for grabs now. It would change a lot. People around the league would take notice, we'd be huge in the media, and it would finally get that NE monkey that's been there for 8 years off our backs.

Well, I guess it would depend on how we won. A "lucky" play like Brady fumbling a QB kneel and we take it in for 6 with 10 seconds left, obviously that's a NE L and not necessarily a Buffalo W. If we win handily like week 1 though, or tight comeback like week 2, then my first paragraph.

And this is what I think. Playoffs are now a legitimate possibility.