Tom Modrak is back!

[DraftBoy]

http://www.buffalobillsdraft.com/2012/06/tom-modrak-is-back/


If you ask almost any Bills fan who was to blame for the Bills most universally horrible drafts before Buddy Nix rode into town the answer you’ll most often here in Tom Modrak. Now of course these aren’t Modrak’s fault, after all he wasn’t even the GM. However when he was brought into Buffalo as a draft wizard of sorts, he had spent time with Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and had done great things in their drafts for them.

For some of you this will not sit well at all.

[justasportsfan]

interesting to see what Nix will do

[better days]

Well, no point in wasting money on Blesto anymore.

[OpIv37]

I don't understand why people insist on defending anyone associated with the Bills post- 2000.

Ralph, Donahoe, Modrak, Guy, Overdorf, Brandon, Marv- they all have the proverbial blood on their hands.

And just for the record, I'm a huge fan of what Marv did as a coach, but I can't let that cloud my observation over his failed tenure as GM.

As far as the original topic goes, I really don't see it as a big deal at all. Modrak is one staffer working for a scouting service that the Bills use as part of their analysis. I'd prefer that he had no hand in it whatsoever, but he has no decision-making authority and is only one of many sources of information for player evaluation. It's too small of a link to get upset about.

[OpIv37]

and btw it's not often that we get a MR thread title of the day in BZ, but we got one today!

[Devin]

Ugh.

[stuckincincy]

Eh - it's the old thing...an ounce of pull is worth a pound of push.

[mercyrule]

and btw it's not often that we get a MR thread title of the day in BZ, but we got one today!Hey!

[ddaryl]

Kind of mis-leading title.

he was hired by a scouting service. I seriously doubt the Bills go on blind faith of any service.... So it stil comes down to our own scouts, and Nix/Whaley

[Forward_Lateral]

Looks like a service that's about as useful to NFL teams as Mel Kiper and other draft "geniuses". I'm sure the Bills, and every other NFL team for that matter, will trust their own scouts over that.

[DraftBoy]

I don't understand why people insist on defending anyone associated with the Bills post- 2000.

Ralph, Donahoe, Modrak, Guy, Overdorf, Brandon, Marv- they all have the proverbial blood on their hands.

And just for the record, I'm a huge fan of what Marv did as a coach, but I can't let that cloud my observation over his failed tenure as GM.

As far as the original topic goes, I really don't see it as a big deal at all. Modrak is one staffer working for a scouting service that the Bills use as part of their analysis. I'd prefer that he had no hand in it whatsoever, but he has no decision-making authority and is only one of many sources of information for player evaluation. It's too small of a link to get upset about.

Not one staffer, he is the Director of Scouting.

[DraftBoy]

Kind of mis-leading title.

he was hired by a scouting service. I seriously doubt the Bills go on blind faith of any service.... So it stil comes down to our own scouts, and Nix/Whaley


Not really mis-leading. He's back involved and has a direction connection to Bills scouting and draft, no?

He was hired by a scouting service the Bills subscribe to, do you think they subscribe to a service they have no use for?

Now do I think BLESTO is the end all be all for the Bills scouting? No, but I dont think the opposite is correct either. I think BLESTO plays it role with the amount of rankings and reports they give to their subscribers.

[DraftBoy]

Looks like a service that's about as useful to NFL teams as Mel Kiper and other draft "geniuses". I'm sure the Bills, and every other NFL team for that matter, will trust their own scouts over that.


That would be false.

[BertSquirtgum]

This thread title is bunk.

[TigerJ]

As a subscriber, the Bills get info on players from Blesto, but the Bills supplement that with a lot of info from their own scouts and research, then it's the Bills responsibility to take that info and use their best judgment on who to draft when their turn comes up. As has been stated already, there is plenty of blame to go around for the bad drafts prior to Buddy Nix being named as GM. Modrak deserves some of it, but so do a lot of others. I see no point in carrying a grudge over it.

[YardRat]

Buffalo has been a member of BLESTO from the start, I believe, and the fact that they've had some great drafts and some really terrible ones over the years should be evidence that their own staff has a greater impact than the service.

[Michael82]

It's time for the Bills to cancel their subscription with BLESTO.

[jamze132]

I don't think Modrak was the one who drafted Mike Williams, Tim Anderson, Aaron Maybin, etc., so who knows what his thoughts were on those selections. He may have been against them. :idunno:

[DraftBoy]

Buffalo has been a member of BLESTO from the start, I believe, and the fact that they've had some great drafts and some really terrible ones over the years should be evidence that their own staff has a greater impact than the service.

Maybe, like I've said over and over again we don't know how much impact BLESTO has had with past regimes or this one. We know the Bills use them, we know the Bills scout (CJ Leak) is the BLESTO scout for us. We also now know that Tom Modrak will be the director of scouting for those rankings and reports. That's the extent to what we know.

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I don't think Modrak was the one who drafted Mike Williams, Tim Anderson, Aaron Maybin, etc., so who knows what his thoughts were on those selections. He may have been against them. :idunno:

Absolutely, Ive always thought Modrak has been the scapegoat for many poor selections.

[better days]

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Absolutely, Ive always thought Modrak has been the scapegoat for many poor selections. Well, obviously Nix does not think much of Modracks ability because he fired him.

[DraftBoy]

Well, obviously Nix does not think much of Modracks ability because he fired him.

Well after a billboard is ridiculously constructed and public pressure is the way it is, why would a new regime want to keep that kind of problem around?

We were literally at a point that people just assumed every pick was going to suck, not that they didnt have reason to.

[justasportsfan]

Well after a billboard is ridiculously constructed and public pressure is the way it is, why would a new regime want to keep that kind of problem around?

We were literally at a point that people just assumed every pick was going to suck, not that they didnt have reason to.

Since when has Nix cared about what fans thought? Funny thing is that Modrak was the one that recommended that we hire Nix.

[DraftBoy]

Since when has Nix cared about what fans thought? Funny thing is that Modrak was the one that recommended that we hire Nix.

Big difference between caring what fans think and understanding how public perception works as it relates to your fan base getting excited again, buying tickets, etc.

And we are all assuming it was Nix's call to fire Modrak.

[justasportsfan]

Big difference between caring what fans think and understanding how public perception works as it relates to your fan base getting excited again, buying tickets, etc.

And we are all assuming it was Nix's call to fire Modrak.

Assuming that Nix made the decision, I doubt he'd fire Modrak regardless of what the fans perception were. Fitz doesn't exactly excite anyone and neither does Young except for Pti.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I don't understand why people insist on defending anyone associated with the Bills post- 2000.

Ralph, Donahoe, Modrak, Guy, Overdorf, Brandon, Marv- they all have the proverbial blood on their hands.
Don't forget Jauron had a huge part of ****** us up too.

[Jan Reimers]

Modrak will not have the kind of direct influence that he had as a top level Bills' employee, so this seems like a non-story to me.

[DraftBoy]

Assuming that Nix made the decision, I doubt he'd fire Modrak regardless of what the fans perception were. Fitz doesn't exactly excite anyone and neither does Young except for Pti.

You're looking at it through a singular view. Nix's job may be strictly team development but the organization has to care about far more than that.

Fitz has proven he can handle the job and Im not sure what relevance Young plays in this.

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Modrak will not have the kind of direct influence that he had as a top level Bills' employee, so this seems like a non-story to me.

We don't know that. Again we have zero idea one way or another what or how much influence BLESTO has with how the Bills operate. It could be next to nothing it could be the way they set their board.

[better days]

Well after a billboard is ridiculously constructed and public pressure is the way it is, why would a new regime want to keep that kind of problem around?

We were literally at a point that people just assumed every pick was going to suck, not that they didnt have reason to.

So you REALLY think Nix fired Modrack because he succumbed to public pressure & not because Modrack SUCKED? Come on, get real.

[Jan Reimers]

We don't know that. Again we have zero idea one way or another what or how much influence BLESTO has with how the Bills operate. It could be next to nothing it could be the way they set their board.
I know you like to be a contrarion, but do you really think an employee of BLESTO will have the same clout as a top Bills' player personnel employee? That Nix, Whaley, the Bills's scouts et. al. just say, "OK, let's just swallow everything BLESTO says and let them dictate our draft?"

A reasonable person would find that absurd.

[justasportsfan]

You're looking at it through a singular view. Nix's job may be strictly team development but the organization has to care about far more than that. Obviously I was talking singular under the assumption that Nix was the one who fired Modrak but I don't know that to be true. If he thought Modrak was an asset, I doubt he would have fired Modrak due to fan pressure. You win fans over by winning games.


Fitz has proven he can handle the job and Im not sure what relevance Young plays in this.

Fitz doesn't excite any fans . Young has a lot of question marks from a fans perspective regardless of fan base. Yet, Nix kept Fitz and brought in Young regardless of fan perspective. Another one is Gailey. He wasn't a sexy pick that fans wanted. So once again, I doubt Nix cares about fan pressure or perspective whether it's his FO or players.

[BillsOverDolphins]

Don't forget Jauron had a huge part of ****** us up too.

There were many hands that crafted our doom.

[DraftBoy]

So you REALLY think Nix fired Modrack because he succumbed to public pressure & not because Modrack SUCKED? Come on, get real.

Your entire point is based on a fallacy you cannot prove.

[DraftBoy]

I know you like to be a contrarion, but do you really think an employee of BLESTO will have the same clout as a top Bills' player personnel employee? That Nix, Whaley, the Bills's scouts et. al. just say, "OK, let's just swallow everything BLESTO says and let them dictate our draft?"

A reasonable person would find that absurd.

Contrarion? Sure, I just hate group think because its lazy and big part of what society is dumbed down, but back to the question at hand.

No, but that's not what I said either, is it? Take what I said at what I actually said. Don't attempt to spin it as saying BLESTO sets our board, or in the other direction that BLESTO has no bearing on our board.

We know they have some influence/effect or else we wouldn't subscribe, we know we find some value in their services that we utilize. We know that Modrak is now in charge of all their scouting. Thus whatever influence/value we find will be that of Modrak's since he's the one in charge. That's all Im saying, nothing more and nothing less.

[DraftBoy]

Obviously I was talking singular under the assumption that Nix was the one who fired Modrak but I don't know that to be true. If he thought Modrak was an asset, I doubt he would have fired Modrak due to fan pressure. You win fans over by winning games.

Fitz doesn't excite any fans . Young has a lot of question marks from a fans perspective regardless of fan base. Yet, Nix kept Fitz and brought in Young regardless of fan perspective. Another one is Gailey. He wasn't a sexy pick that fans wanted. So once again, I doubt Nix cares about fan pressure or perspective whether it's his FO or players.

Again you're assuming he was the one who made that call. Assest or not people get fired for all kinds of stupid reasons. Polian who one would argue was as big an assest as the Bills ever had got fired for what some would argue is a stupid reason.

Comparing players to front office personell doesn't lend itself to a very even comparsion, lots of variables on both sides determine success. I never said it was fan pressure that got Modrak fired either, you're arguing a point nobody is trying to make.

[justasportsfan]

Again you're assuming he was the one who made that call. Assest or not people get fired for all kinds of stupid reasons. Polian who one would argue was as big an assest as the Bills ever had got fired for what some would argue is a stupid reason.

Comparing players to front office personell doesn't lend itself to a very even comparsion, lots of variables on both sides determine success. I never said it was fan pressure that got Modrak fired either, you're arguing a point nobody is trying to make.

I already said that assuming Nix made that call and if he did, I doubt its because of fan pressure.

If he didn't make the call then my opinion means nothing. All I'm saying is that Nix doesn't buckle down to fan pressure.

[better days]

Your entire point is based on a fallacy you cannot prove.

No quite the opposite. Your entire point is based on a fallacy you can't prove. And I think Justa poked a HUGE hole in your fallacy.

[DraftBoy]

No quite the opposite. Your entire point is based on a fallacy you can't prove. And I think Justa poked a HUGE hole in your fallacy.


I think you want to reword that.

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I already said that assuming Nix made that call and if he did, I doubt its because of fan pressure.

If he didn't make the call then my opinion means nothing. All I'm saying is that Nix doesn't buckle down to fan pressure.

I never said it was because of fan pressure, not sure where that idea came from.

[better days]

I think you want to reword that.

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I never said it was because of fan pressure, not sure where that idea came from.

I think you want to reread the thread & what you posted. Yeah you did say it was because of a Billboard erected & public pressure that Nix fired Modrack. Like I said, a FANTASY of yours which Justa blew a hole through.

[DraftBoy]

I think you want to reread the thread & what you posted. Yeah you did say it was because of a Billboard erected & public pressure that Nix fired Modrack. Like I said, a FANTASY of yours which Justa blew a hole through.

Based on what you've said then you don't understand the point. The point wasn't that people thought Modrak sucked therefor he should be fired. The point was the Bills needed somebody to blame or take the fall. The fans gave them that out with Modrak. Fans were so frustrated with the idea that he was the one at fault for our poor drafts that it was only logical to make this move but not to appease a ridiculously naive idea from our fan base but rather to take advantage of it.

Modrak wasn't fired from fan pressure, Modrak was fired because fans gave the organization the fall guy to blame. If you go back and look at the thread from Modrak being canned look at the celebrations, or jubilation and for what exactly? Since Modrak has been gone we've gotten better but only marginally. We just came off a season where we ended up picking 10th overall. As bright as we all like to think the future currently looks the idea that everything that went wrong previously was all Modrak's fault is patently false and idiotic. It was then and it is now.

[better days]

Based on what you've said then you don't understand the point. The point wasn't that people thought Modrak sucked therefor he should be fired. The point was the Bills needed somebody to blame or take the fall. The fans gave them that out with Modrak. Fans were so frustrated with the idea that he was the one at fault for our poor drafts that it was only logical to make this move but not to appease a ridiculously naive idea from our fan base but rather to take advantage of it.

Modrak wasn't fired from fan pressure, Modrak was fired because fans gave the organization the fall guy to blame. If you go back and look at the thread from Modrak being canned look at the celebrations, or jubilation and for what exactly? Since Modrak has been gone we've gotten better but only marginally. We just came off a season where we ended up picking 10th overall. As bright as we all like to think the future currently looks the idea that everything that went wrong previously was all Modrak's fault is patently false and idiotic. It was then and it is now.

Based on what you posted before, I took away the point you were trying to make at that time, that the Bills fired Modrack because of an erected Billboard & fan pressure. The Bills have had two drafts since Modrack was fired & I think both will prove to be MUCH MORE than marginally better than when Modrack was involved.

Nobody is saying Modrack was the entire problem with the poor drafting of this team in the past, but he was definitely a big part of that problem.

[BertSquirtgum]

Well after a billboard is ridiculously constructed and public pressure is the way it is, why would a new regime want to keep that kind of problem around?

We were literally at a point that people just assumed every pick was going to suck, not that they didnt have reason to.

Every pick literally did suck.

[BertSquirtgum]

Don't forget Jauron had a huge part of ****** us up too.

I think the Levy experiment set this team back 6 years. It was his decision to hire the zombie and his drafts were absolute garbage.

[DraftBoy]

Based on what you posted before, I took away the point you were trying to make at that time, that the Bills fired Modrack because of an erected Billboard & fan pressure. The Bills have had two drafts since Modrack was fired & I think both will prove to be MUCH MORE than marginally better than when Modrack was involved.

Nobody is saying Modrack was the entire problem with the poor drafting of this team in the past, but he was definitely a big part of that problem.

And that is why your point was incorrect.

Will prove, does not mean it is proven. Can we at least give these guys time before we annoit them kings or call them busts?

[DraftBoy]

Every pick literally did suck.

Wood, Byrd, Levitre, Johnson, Bell, Lynch, K. Williams, Evans, McGahee, Kelsay, McGee, Clements, and Schobel.

No every pick did not literally suck from when he was here.

[BertSquirtgum]

Wood, Byrd, Levitre, Johnson, Bell, Lynch, K. Williams, Evans, McGahee, Kelsay, McGee, Clements, and Schobel.

No every pick did not literally suck from when he was here.

If they're not on the team anymore they don't count. They sucked.

[OpIv37]

Wood, Byrd, Levitre, Johnson, Bell, Lynch, K. Williams, Evans, McGahee, Kelsay, McGee, Clements, and Schobel.

No every pick did not literally suck from when he was here.

Still, that's not much to show for all the time he was here.

And Kelsay does suck.

[better days]

And that is why your point was incorrect.

Will prove, does not mean it is proven. Can we at least give these guys time before we annoit them kings or call them busts?

Well, it is already proven that the Bills had TERRIBLE drafts with Modrack. Last year Dareus proved he is a STUD. There should be a number of other picks from that draft that will prove themselves in the future. The Bills have received high marks for this years draft. While Modrack was here, the Bills drafted Maybin & Whitner instead of Orakpo & Ngata.

My point is CORRECT.

[DraftBoy]

If they're not on the team anymore they don't count. They sucked.


:rofl:

So our best offensive and defensive player suck. Alright.

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Still, that's not much to show for all the time he was here.

And Kelsay does suck.

I didn't say it was, I simply was responding to the notion that "literally every pick sucked".

[DraftBoy]

Well, it is already proven that the Bills had TERRIBLE drafts with Modrack. Last year Dareus proved he is a STUD. There should be a number of other picks from that draft that will prove themselves in the future. The Bills have received high marks for this years draft. While Modrack was here, the Bills drafted Maybin & Whitner instead of Orakpo & Ngata.

My point is CORRECT.

This post is riddeled with fallacies. While Modrak was here we drafted our two best players (Williams and Johnson) and to continue to your logic with Nix we still have no LT, franchise QB, or #2 WR.

Do you see how illogical that sounds? If you're only going to look at one side then this is a discussion that's not even worth having.

And your point was not correct.

[better days]

This post is riddeled with fallacies. While Modrak was here we drafted our two best players (Williams and Johnson) and to continue to your logic with Nix we still have no LT, franchise QB, or #2 WR.

Do you see how illogical that sounds? If you're only going to look at one side then this is a discussion that's not even worth having.

And your point was not correct.

Well, it seems everyone posting in this thread agrees with me. Of course the Bills still have a number of holes to fill, the team was decimated by all those years when Modrack was involved in the draft. Nix has only been in charge a short time, as you said about players on the team, let's give him some time to prove himself as good or not. My money is on Nix. And for every good player the Bills drafted while Modrack was in Buffalo, 10 terrible players were drafted.

[justasportsfan]

This post is riddeled with fallacies. While Modrak was here we drafted our two best players (Williams and Johnson) and to continue to your logic with Nix we still have no LT, franchise QB, or #2 WR.

Do you see how illogical that sounds? If you're only going to look at one side then this is a discussion that's not even worth having.

And your point was not correct.

I agree with what you're saying that not everyone we drafted under Modrak was bad, but I also agree with others here that his misses outweigh his hits.

[DraftBoy]

Well, it seems everyone posting in this thread agrees with me. Of course the Bills still have a number of holes to fill, the team was decimated by all those years when Modrack was involved in the draft. Nix has only been in charge a short time, as you said about players on the team, let's give him some time to prove himself as good or not. My money is on Nix. And for every good player the Bills drafted while Modrack was in Buffalo, 10 terrible players were drafted.

Not really and since when do we just start making up numbers to fit our ficticious argument?

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I agree with what you're saying that not everyone we drafted under Modrak was bad, but I also agree with others here that his misses outweigh his hits.

I never once said they didn't.

[k-oneputt]

Some things never change.
How can anyone posssibly defend Modrak and his decade of terrible drafts is beyond me.
Do you actually understand what you've been watching with these terrible players modrak brought in for a decade ?
Bletso should be the first thing dumped if Modrak is running it.

[DraftBoy]

Some things never change.
How can anyone posssibly defend Modrak and his decade of terrible drafts is beyond me.
Do you actually understand what you've been watching with these terrible players modrak brought in for a decade ?
Bletso should be the first thing dumped if Modrak is running it.

Who is defending him?

[BillsOverDolphins]

I understand the overreaction to his name, tbh. His name is synonymous with failure here, and we've had about enough of that already.

[better days]

Not really and since when do we just start making up numbers to fit our ficticious argument?

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I never once said they didn't.

Please explain what is ficticious about my argument. I am not making up numbers. I will bet you for every good player still on the Bills that you name that were drafted while Modrack was in Buffalo, I can name 10 players drafted while Modrack was here that are no longer on the Bills & MANY of them are no longer in the NFL period.

[justasportsfan]

I never once said they didn't. and I never said you did. Just pointing out what others here were trying to say

[DraftBoy]

and I never said you did. Just pointing out what others here were trying to say

Fair enough.

[DraftBoy]

Please explain what is ficticious about my argument. I am not making up numbers. I will bet you for every good player still on the Bills that you name that were drafted while Modrack was in Buffalo, I can name 10 players drafted while Modrack was here that are no longer on the Bills & MANY of them are no longer in the NFL period.

Yes you are, since 2001 the Bills have selected 87 players, so you're made up numbers says that from 2001 to 2011 we did not select even 8 good players. That is completely wrong and made up. Why would you even attempt to make such a ridiculous claim that you have no hope of backing up?

And no you don't get to add your equally ridiculous qualifier of them having to still play for the Bills. If they are good NFL players, they were good picks. Free Agency has made it nearly impossible to hang on to every single one of your good draft picks.

[better days]

Yes you are, since 2001 the Bills have selected 87 players, so you're made up numbers says that from 2001 to 2011 we did not select even 8 good players. That is completely wrong and made up. Why would you even attempt to make such a ridiculous claim that you have no hope of backing up?

And no you don't get to add your equally ridiculous qualifier of them having to still play for the Bills. If they are good NFL players, they were good picks. Free Agency has made it nearly impossible to hang on to every single one of your good draft picks.

Well, I will admit there are some good players that were drafted by the Bills that no longer play for the team. McGahee for example, was drafted by Buffalo in the first rnd when he should have been a 5th or 6th rnd pick. He rehabed for a year on Buffalos dime, then when he got healthy he trashed the City of Buffalo so the team would have to trade him.

I may have exagerated the numbers a little bit, but you saying Nix fired Modrack because of a Billboard & public pressure is TRULY RIDICULOUS.

[DraftBoy]

Well, I will admit there are some good players that were drafted by the Bills that no longer play for the team. McGahee for example, was drafted by Buffalo in the first rnd when he should have been a 5th or 6th rnd pick. He rehabed for a year on Buffalos dime, then when he got healthy he trashed the City of Buffalo so the team would have to trade him.

I may have exagerated the numbers a little bit, but you saying Nix fired Modrack because of a Billboard & public pressure is TRULY RIDICULOUS.

I did not say that though. Again you have yet to actually understand the point.

[better days]

Well after a billboard is ridiculously constructed and public pressure is the way it is, why would a new regime want to keep that kind of problem around?

We were literally at a point that people just assumed every pick was going to suck, not that they didnt have reason to.

Here is the post that you asked why a new regime would want to keep that kind of problem around with a billboard & public pressure. You implied the billboard & public pressure were major factors in Nix firing Modrack.

[DraftBoy]

Here is the post that you asked why a new regime would want to keep that kind of problem around with a billboard & public pressure. You implied the billboard & public pressure were major factors in Nix firing Modrack.

Yes because of what they imply not because of what they are.

You had a fan base that was literally offering a free get out of jail free card to the organization to start all over by firing basically one dude. Who in their right mind wouldn't do that?

Modrak stuck for a transition period, and then was fired and almost everybody was happy. Why would you not want that? The Billboard and pressure did not get him fired, what it offered though did.

[better days]

Yes because of what they imply not because of what they are.

You had a fan base that was literally offering a free get out of jail free card to the organization to start all over by firing basically one dude. Who in their right mind wouldn't do that?

Modrak stuck for a transition period, and then was fired and almost everybody was happy. Why would you not want that? The Billboard and pressure did not get him fired, what it offered though did.


Well, you don't fire someone that you think is doing a good job in spite of what the fan base thinks. You let the fan base know the organization thinks highly of him & ask for time to prove his worth.

You do fire someone that you don't think is doing a good job period. It is not like Modrack is a starting QB or HC or GM. He is a SCOUT.

[YardRat]

The only salient points to this issue are...

A-Modrak sucks.
B-Nix knows Modrak sucks and fired him, and that is evidence enough on it's own to conclude that a Modrak-run BLESTO isn't going to carry any more weight on the Bills drafting philosophy.

[DraftBoy]

Well, you don't fire someone that you think is doing a good job in spite of what the fan base thinks. You let the fan base know the organization thinks highly of him & ask for time to prove his worth.

You do fire someone that you don't think is doing a good job period. It is not like Modrack is a starting QB or HC or GM. He is a SCOUT.

Where did I say he was doing a good job?

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The only salient points to this issue are...

A-Modrak sucks.
B-Nix knows Modrak sucks and fired him, and that is evidence enough on it's own to conclude that a Modrak-run BLESTO isn't going to carry any more weight on the Bills drafting philosophy.

There is no evidence of such and we don't know that Nix even fired Modrak.

[k-oneputt]

No evidence that Modrak sucks ? He has ten years of drafts that say he sucks.

The bottom line is Nix let Modrak go, because he sucks, thus the use of Bletso will probably be used even less then before.
And if Bletso was the outfit turning the Bills on to the small school wonders then they should never speak to that service again.

[better days]

Where did I say he was doing a good job?

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There is no evidence of such and we don't know that Nix even fired Modrak.


In post #19, you said that Modrack was the scapegoat for bad draft picks. I responded that Nix must not think much of him because he fired him. You responded to that post with the stupid post about the billboard & public pressure.

Now you are saying we don't know that Nix fired Modrack, INCREDIBLE. It is a well known fact that Nix fired Modrack. Do you think Modrack still works for the Bills & is locked away in a secret room so nobody will know?

I find it incredible that you have tried to defend Modrack in this thread.

[k-oneputt]

He always does the backtrack routine when he's called on about making stupid comments.

[DraftBoy]

No evidence that Modrak sucks ? He has ten years of drafts that say he sucks.

The bottom line is Nix let Modrak go, because he sucks, thus the use of Bletso will probably be used even less then before.
And if Bletso was the outfit turning the Bills on to the small school wonders then they should never speak to that service again.

We also have our best players during his drafts as well. So how can one suck yet make picks that end up as our best players?

We don't know that Nix did anything. That's a grand assumption, it may have not even been his call in the end.

BLESTO ranks less small schoolers than National. That much I can confirm 100%.

[DraftBoy]

In post #19, you said that Modrack was the scapegoat for bad draft picks. I responded that Nix must not think much of him because he fired him. You responded to that post with the stupid post about the billboard & public pressure.

Now you are saying we don't know that Nix fired Modrack, INCREDIBLE. It is a well known fact that Nix fired Modrack. Do you think Modrack still works for the Bills & is locked away in a secret room so nobody will know?

I find it incredible that you have tried to defend Modrack in this thread.

He was the scapegoat. We don't know that Nix fired him. We know he was fired, but as for whom fired him, we don't know that. I mean a basic organizational chart can tell you that multiple people (Ralph, Brandon, Overdorf) all had the pull and ability to terminate Modrack in addition to Nix.

Im not defending Modrack at all, Ive said I have zero issue firing him, it was a move the organization had to make.

However I will argue against the stupidity of every pick he made was great, or that he was the sole reason for the Bills drafts sucking. You've seen multiple fans come in here and say that he was not the sole reason. Yet you claim that for every good pick there were 10 bad picks, an untrue claim. You also can't dispute that during Modrack's time we have drafted our two best players and multiple current starters for our Bills which is a team you claim is in a position to make a playoff push.

So how can a guy who sucks as much as you claim, pick so many players that will make such an impact that they will put this team in a position to make a playoff run? I mean if he sucks then all those players should suck right? Wood, Levitre, Johnson, Williams, Byrd, etc.

Point being this is why group think is dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -


He always does the backtrack routine when he's called on about making stupid comments.

No backtracking, I know individual thought is frowned upon though.

[better days]

We also have our best players during his drafts as well. So how can one suck yet make picks that end up as our best players?

We don't know that Nix did anything. That's a grand assumption, it may have not even been his call in the end.

BLESTO ranks less small schoolers than National. That much I can confirm 100%.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion.

If Nix did not fire Modrack who do you think did? Ralph gave Nix control of the team & at his age is much less involved than he used to be with the running of the team. Modrack had been an on the Bills staff for years so why would Ralph make the call himself to fire him now unless Nix told Ralph he didn't think much of Modrack? If Not Ralph do you think it was Russ Brandon that now has no responsibility for football matters? If not Ralph or Russ then who? The answer is so obvious that even a blind squirrel could find it. The answer is Nix.

[better days]

He was the scapegoat. We don't know that Nix fired him. We know he was fired, but as for whom fired him, we don't know that. I mean a basic organizational chart can tell you that multiple people (Ralph, Brandon, Overdorf) all had the pull and ability to terminate Modrack in addition to Nix.

Im not defending Modrack at all, Ive said I have zero issue firing him, it was a move the organization had to make.

However I will argue against the stupidity of every pick he made was great, or that he was the sole reason for the Bills drafts sucking. You've seen multiple fans come in here and say that he was not the sole reason. Yet you claim that for every good pick there were 10 bad picks, an untrue claim. You also can't dispute that during Modrack's time we have drafted our two best players and multiple current starters for our Bills which is a team you claim is in a position to make a playoff push.

So how can a guy who sucks as much as you claim, pick so many players that will make such an impact that they will put this team in a position to make a playoff run? I mean if he sucks then all those players should suck right? Wood, Levitre, Johnson, Williams, Byrd, etc.

Point being this is why group think is dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -



No backtracking, I know individual thought is frowned upon though.

This is LUDICROUS you call Modrack a scapegoat then deny you defended him or backtracked just incredible & very disingenuous.

[justasportsfan]

He was the scapegoat. We don't know that Nix fired him. We know he was fired, but as for whom fired him, we don't know that.

Since you don't know if Nix fired Modrak then you have no way of knowing if he was a scapegoat.

[DraftBoy]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion.

If Nix did not fire Modrack who do you think did? Ralph gave Nix control of the team & at his age is much less involved than he used to be with the running of the team. Modrack had been an on the Bills staff for years so why would Ralph make the call himself to fire him now unless Nix told Ralph he didn't think much of Modrack? If Not Ralph do you think it was Russ Brandon that now has no responsibility for football matters? If not Ralph or Russ then who? The answer is so obvious that even a blind squirrel could find it. The answer is Nix.

Blind Squirrel? You do realize that 8 of our current starters were drafted during Modrack's tenure correct? Have you actually looked at the numbers.

The 2nd half is all blind conjecture. Could it be true? Sure, but we don't know either way.

[DraftBoy]

This is LUDICROUS you call Modrack a scapegoat then deny you defended him or backtracked just incredible & very disingenuous.

He was by the fan base. I'm not defending Modrack, Im defending idiotic logic.

If you want to know if I think Modrack should of been fired simply because of how he did his job maybe you should just ask that question, not make wildly inaccurate statements with capitalizations and bold words that do nothing to help but further categorize your arguments as uninformed.

[DraftBoy]

Since you don't know if Nix fired Modrak then you have no way of knowing if he was a scapegoat.

True, though my argument is more than the fanbase considers him one which allowed the organization the get out of jail free card and makes him more of a martyr than a scape goat from an organizational standpoint.

But I can I prove it? No, but I do enjoy showing people how idiotic their arguments are when they just blindly say Modrack sucked besides him picking our best players and having selected 8 of our slated 2012 starters and multiple players that will play key backup roles this season.

[DraftBoy]

Since you don't know if Nix fired Modrak then you have no way of knowing if he was a scapegoat.

Oh and I already know there next argument which makes this all the more enjoyable.

[justasportsfan]

True, though my argument is more than the fanbase considers him one which allowed the organization the get out of jail free card and makes him more of a martyr than a scape goat from an organizational standpoint.

But I can I prove it? No, but I do enjoy showing people how idiotic their arguments are when they just blindly say Modrack sucked besides him picking our best players and having selected 8 of our slated 2012 starters and multiple players that will play key backup roles this season.


I've defended Modrak for years. But since we have no info other than his misses in the draft and then being fired then it isn't idiotic to think that he sucked while he was here .

[DraftBoy]

I've defended Modrak for years. But since we have no info other than his misses in the draft and then being fired then it isn't idiotic to think that he sucked while he was here .

We have more info now. Was he not with the team when we picked 8 of our current starters? The info is there, you just have to look for it.

The reason you fire him is there to.

[justasportsfan]

We have more info now. Was he not with the team when we picked 8 of our current starters? The info is there, you just have to look for it.

The reason you fire him is there to.

Again, he's had more misses than those 8 starters.

[k-oneputt]

We have more info now. Was he not with the team when we picked 8 of our current starters? The info is there, you just have to look for it.

The reason you fire him is there to.

Who are the eight starters that were drafted by Modrak ?

Levitre, Wood, Johnson, Williams, Byrd

Kelsay and McGee may or may not start this year, and both could just as easily not even make the final roster.

I count five. And that is a horrible job.

Why don't you list his busts. That should take a while.

[better days]

He was by the fan base. I'm not defending Modrack, Im defending idiotic logic.

If you want to know if I think Modrack should of been fired simply because of how he did his job maybe you should just ask that question, not make wildly inaccurate statements with capitalizations and bold words that do nothing to help but further categorize your arguments as uninformed.

Like I said you have been very disingenuous in this thread. Your posting in this thread is very similar to Pat Moran who is also disingenuous.

[DraftBoy]

Again, he's had more misses than those 8 starters.


Now we're getting somewhere. Well start at what is considered a miss. Are we talking top two round picks, no starts, some starts? For example, Whitner is that a miss despite being a multi-year starter for two different teams?

Not by my definition but some will say it is. Also do we count 2010 or is it too soon to tell with a guy like Maybin who sucked here but has done much better with the Jets?

We know guys like Mike Williams, John McCargo were clear misses there is no argument there, but what about guys like Whitner, Maybin?

Here are his top two picks from each draft since 2001;
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 3 Marcell Dareus DT Alabama -HIT
2 34 Aaron Williams DB Texas -HIT

2010 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 9 C.J. Spiller RB Clemson -HIT
2 41 Torell Troup DT Central Florida -MISS

2009 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 11 Aaron Maybin DE Penn State -MISS (though it could be a hit if he continues to develop)
1 28 Eric Wood C Louisville -HIT


2008 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 11 Leodis McKelvin CB Troy -HIT (Could be a miss if his poor play continues)
2 41 James Hardy WR Indiana -MISS

2007 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 12 Marshawn Lynch RB California -HIT
2 34 Paul Posluszny MLB Penn State -HIT

2006 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State -HIT
1 26 John McCargo DT North Carolina State -MISS

2005 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
2 55 Roscoe Parrish WR Miami (Fla.) -MISS
3 86 Kevin Everett TE Miami (Fla.) -MISS

2004 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 13 Lee Evans WR Wisconsin -HIT
1 22 J.P. Losman QB Tulane -MISS

2003 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 23 Willis McGahee RB Miami (Fla.)-HIT
2 48 Chris Kelsay DE Nebraska -HIT

2002 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 4 Mike Williams T Texas -MISS
2 36 Josh Reed WR Louisiana State -HIT

2001 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 21 Nate Clements CB Ohio State -HIT
2 46 Aaron Schobel DE Texas Christian -HIT

That's 24 picks during the Modrak tenure, I have it at 13 to 8 Hit to Miss ratio. Now for me that's not good enough, but let's be clear about what we actually mean by hits and misses. If you draft a player and he's a multi-year starter or big time contributor to your ball club that's a hit. Missing means the pick was literally wasted on a player who can't contribute. Some of my calls are 50/50 so what are yours?

[DraftBoy]

Like I said you have been very disingenuous in this thread. Your posting in this thread is very similar to Pat Moran who is also disingenuous.

Nice, I'll ask you to refrain from comment about me as a person and simply stick on topic if you wish to continue this discussion.

[better days]

Nice, I'll ask you to refrain from comment about me as a person and simply stick on topic if you wish to continue this discussion.

No point in continuing this discussion when you deny defending Modrack yet have done nothing but that in this thread.

[DraftBoy]

No point in continuing this discussion when you deny defending Modrack yet have done nothing but that in this thread.

Challenging ill perceived logic is not a defense, if you can't see the difference between the two then I don't see any reason for you to continue either.

[justasportsfan]

Now we're getting somewhere. Well start at what is considered a miss. Are we talking top two round picks, no starts, some starts? For example, Whitner is that a miss despite being a multi-year starter for two different teams?

Not by my definition but some will say it is. Also do we count 2010 or is it too soon to tell with a guy like Maybin who sucked here but has done much better with the Jets?

We know guys like Mike Williams, John McCargo were clear misses there is no argument there, but what about guys like Whitner, Maybin?

Here are his top two picks from each draft since 2001;
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 3 Marcell Dareus DT Alabama -HIT
2 34 Aaron Williams DB Texas -HIT

2010 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 9 C.J. Spiller RB Clemson -HIT
2 41 Torell Troup DT Central Florida -MISS

2009 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 11 Aaron Maybin DE Penn State -MISS (though it could be a hit if he continues to develop)
1 28 Eric Wood C Louisville -HIT


2008 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 11 Leodis McKelvin CB Troy -HIT (Could be a miss if his poor play continues)
2 41 James Hardy WR Indiana -MISS

2007 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 12 Marshawn Lynch RB California -HIT
2 34 Paul Posluszny MLB Penn State -HIT

2006 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State -HIT
1 26 John McCargo DT North Carolina State -MISS

2005 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
2 55 Roscoe Parrish WR Miami (Fla.) -MISS
3 86 Kevin Everett TE Miami (Fla.) -MISS

2004 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 13 Lee Evans WR Wisconsin -HIT
1 22 J.P. Losman QB Tulane -MISS

2003 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 23 Willis McGahee RB Miami (Fla.)-HIT
2 48 Chris Kelsay DE Nebraska -HIT

2002 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 4 Mike Williams T Texas -MISS
2 36 Josh Reed WR Louisiana State -HIT

2001 - Buffalo Bills
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 21 Nate Clements CB Ohio State -HIT
2 46 Aaron Schobel DE Texas Christian -HIT

That's 24 picks during the Modrak tenure, I have it at 13 to 8 Hit to Miss ratio. Now for me that's not good enough, but let's be clear about what we actually mean by hits and misses. If you draft a player and he's a multi-year starter or big time contributor to your ball club that's a hit. Missing means the pick was literally wasted on a player who can't contribute. Some of my calls are 50/50 so what are yours?

I wouldn't call guys like Whitner, POZ, Lynch,Mckelvin hits unless your definition of hits are using high draft picks on would be average players. Guys like Kyle are hits in my book because they have played better than where they were drafted.

[better days]

Challenging ill perceived logic is not a defense, if you can't see the difference between the two then I don't see any reason for you to continue either.

Don't criticize me for rightly calling you disingenuious then post something as absurd as this.

[DraftBoy]

Don't criticize me for rightly calling you disingenuious then post something as absurd as this.

Im not cirtizing you, Im continuing to tell you that you do not understand the point. I have asked you once, and Im only going to ask you one more time, please refrain from any personal attack.

Acting like a grown up is not difficult, and I don't want to block you, because usually I enjoy our banter but Im not going to talk to somebody who can't have a discussion without attacking my character.

- - - Updated - - -


I wouldn't call guys like Whitner, POZ, Lynch,Mckelvin hits unless your definition of hits are using high draft picks on would be average players. Guys like Kyle are hits in my book because they have played better than where they were drafted.

So they are what then? Because they aren't misses.

What would you term multi-year starters for multiple teams (except McKelvin)?

[justasportsfan]

So they are what then? Because they aren't misses.

What would you term multi-year starters for multiple teams (except McKelvin)?

you tell me. Do you draft average players in the 1st especially in the top 10? THey are starters on other teams because they got outplayed by arena football players like Freddie, a converted wr like Wilson.

[DraftBoy]

you tell me. Do you draft average players in the 1st especially in the top 10? THey are starters on other teams because they got outplayed by arena football players like Freddie, a converted wr like Wilson.
I draft players to start and be productive. After April the status doesn't mean much to me personally. Either you picked guys who will be contributing players or you didnt.

But I have a weirder view on those things than most.

I'm not sure how much of those guys leaving was being out players compared to off the field issues, and wanting more than we were willing to offer.

[k-oneputt]

Why do you include Dareus and Williams ? modrak was gone.

Maybin, McKelvin, Poz, Whitner, and Reed.... LOL
Wrong again. Keep backtracking.

[k-oneputt]

!st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 2nd

That is downright terrible and considering those were high in their round picks

[justasportsfan]

I draft players to start and be productive. After April the status doesn't mean much to me personally. Either you picked guys who will be contributing players or you didnt.

But I have a weirder view on those things than most.



You draft players in the first round to be more than just average players on a crappy team.

If Whitner played like a Troy Palumalu , he would have been offered more than what was offered to him. Since he was average AT BEST in a crappy team You can find average safeties who can do what Whitner did here without wasting a top 10 pick .

IMO he was not a hit. Neither is MCkelvin at this point .

[DraftBoy]

Why do you include Dareus and Williams ? modrak was gone.

Maybin, McKelvin, Poz, Whitner, and Reed.... LOL
Wrong again. Keep backtracking.

Negative. He was fired shortly after the 2011 draft.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/04/bills-fire-longtime-personnel-executive-tom-modrak/

Not liking players is not the same as calling them busts.

[DraftBoy]

You draft players in the first round to be more than just average players on a crappy team.

If Whitner played like a Troy Palumalu , he would have been offered more than what was offered to him. Since he was average AT BEST in a crappy team You can find average safeties who can do what Whitner did here without wasting a top 10 pick .

IMO he was not a hit. Neither is MCkelvin at this point .

You see this is the issue here. You think if you dont draft the next superstar its a bad pick. Out of the 100 (round estimate predicated on 4 safeties per team) how many are as good as Polamalu? 1 maybe 2? So in other words 97 or 96 other safeties are misses?

Even if you flip those two you're still at 11 to 10 hit to miss. That's over a .500 clip which is pretty impressive considering how many busts there are annually.

[justasportsfan]

You see this is the issue here. You think if you dont draft the next superstar its a bad pick. Out of the 100 (round estimate predicated on 4 safeties per team) how many are as good as Polamalu? 1 maybe 2? So in other words 97 or 96 other safeties are misses?

Even if you flip those two you're still at 11 to 10 hit to miss. That's over a .500 clip which is pretty impressive considering how many busts there are annually.

would you give up a 1st rd. pick for Whitner? A 2nd? 3rd?

[DraftBoy]

would you give up a 1st rd. pick for Whitner? A 2nd? 3rd?

Retroactively? No, but you can't play the hindsight game because we didnt have that benefit on that day in April.

At the time of the draft his stock was as a 1st Rounder. Most mocks had him in the lower half though.

[justasportsfan]

Retroactively? No, but you can't play the hindsight game because we didnt have that benefit on that day in April.

At the time of the draft his stock was as a 1st Rounder. Most mocks had him in the lower half though.

then if he wasn't worth the pick that he was drafted in oreven a second then he was a miss .

And ... No , a top 10 pick doesnt have to be a superstar, he just has to be better than average at best.

[DraftBoy]

then if he wasn't worth the pick that he was drafted in oreven a second then he was a miss .

And ... No , a top 10 pick doesnt have to be a superstar, he just has to be better than average at best.

Ah I see the game now...my turn to play.

So would you give up a 1st Rounder for Lee Evans?

Id argue Whitner was better than average. Was he Top 10 good? Not by my standards but that doesn't make it a miss.

[justasportsfan]

Ah I see the game now...my turn to play.

So would you give up a 1st Rounder for Lee Evans?

Id argue Whitner was better than average. Was he Top 10 good? Not by my standards but that doesn't make it a miss.

I would have after Lee's first contract expired.

Whitner was not even good enough to give up a 2nd or a 3rd when his contract was up.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If I'm drafting top 10, he better end up better than Whitner .

[k-oneputt]

He knows he's wrong again, just trying to save face.

Anyone who thinks Whitner was a good pick at #9 is either lying to themselves or doesn't know football.

Which is it DB ?

McKelvin was #13 I believe and he couldn't even get on the field at the end of last season.

Maybin. LOL. No need to go there.

That is what Modrak brought us as the head of the scouting dept.

Enough said. Game over.

[YardRat]

Quit arguing just for the sake of arguing, DB....it makes you look foolish.

"This is the time of year when we evaluate every element of our football operation and with the Draft now completed, we have decided to reorganize our personnel department," said Bills GM Buddy Nix. "We have begun that process and made a decision to head in a different direction. We thank Tom for his 10 years of dedication to our organization and wish him the best in his future endeavors."

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011/5/4/2153359/tom-modrak-fired-buffalo-bills

[BillsOverDolphins]

DB is unappreciated on this site, imho

[TedMock]

DB is unappreciated on this site, imho

He is, but this is a fan site. He's actually has an excellent reputation in the view of many who make a living in talent evaluation. I can say that with complete certainty. Having said that, fans are fans. Buffalo has excellent fans who will passionately make their points against him and most others, and that's not a bad thing either.