Who should we cut? Re-sign? Let walk?

[X-Era]

http://nyjetscap.com/Bills/bills2013.php
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7744901/nfl-soaring-revenues-coincide-salary-cap-growth
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/

The cap will be around 121 mill
The above has us at around 103 mill (83.6 cash spend)

Cap savings per the above:



Fitz - Cap savings of 450K if the above is correct. He needs a demotion and then is way overpaid.
Troup - 580K - useless
Kelsay - 4.1m- He isn't worth what he's getting. He can rework it and take a cut or be cut
McGee - 2.1m - Can't stay on the field and is over the hill
Barnett - 3.5m- I'd like to replace him with a legit starter
Brad Smith - 2.75 m - What does he actually do?
Freddy - 1.6m - I wouldn't cut him to save this much. I'd trade him and if we couldn't trade him keep him.


This is our free agent list:

Unrestricted FAs
FS Jairus Byrd
RB Tashard Choice
QB Tarvaris Jackson
DL Spencer Johnson
G Andy Levitre
WR Ruvell Martin
FB Corey McIntyre
CB Leodis McKelvin
DE Shawne Merriman
DE Kyle Moore
G Chad Rinehart
LB Bryan Scott
QB Tyler Thigpen

Restricted FAs
C/G Colin Brown
WR Donald Jones
WR David Nelson

Exclusive Rights FAs
TE Mike Caussin
TE Dorin Dickerson

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2012/12/20/bills-free-agent-list-3/

This is who we should re-sign:

Levitre
Byrd

I'd keep the following on the cheap:

Bryan Scott - But I want an upgrade to him as our Nickel LB'er.
T Jax - Because we traded for him
Martin - ST
McKelvin - Returner
McIntyre - ST
Kyle Moore - May command a bit more, I'd pay a reasonable amount

Id let these guys walk:

Thigpen - Useless and hopefully our primary backup will be a rookie
Spencer Johnson - Carrington has emerged to be at least at his level
Merriman - If he's willing to stay on the cheap fine. But I don't look at him as anything other than camp fodder at this point.

Keep the RFA's of course and the others can be TC fillers or walk.

[Skooby]

1-6.

[Mr. Pink]

Freddie is actually due some interesting bonuses, especially if he can healthy. 2.15 base + 300k roster bonus + 150k per game roster bonus. If he stays healthy he'll make 4.85m!

4 people on that list that would be nice to keep around Byrd, Levitre - as I said in the Urbik thread I don't think he'll be staying though, McIntyre - cheap and fills the FB roster spot even if we don't use it and Donald Jones.

The rest of those guys can all go elsewhere.

[coastal]

Byrd and Levitre are obvious.

Mckelvin, Kyle Moore, Tavaris Jackson. Bryan Scott, Merriman

[Night Train]

Your roster ideas are very good. Can't argue with much of anything.

[DraftBoy]

Byrd
Levitre
T Jax
McKelvin
Moore

The rest can walk and are all easily replaceable.

[Ed]

I think Kelsay has to go with a cap savings of $4.2 mil. He'll turn 34 during next season and he's just average depth at this point. It would be a waste to bring him back.

Another guy I would consider cutting is George Wilson with a cap savings of $3.4 mil. We should be trying to upgrade this position and his money can be better spent elsewhere. I say promote Searcy and draft someone to compete with him.

I was under the impression that David Nelson is a free agent also, but I don't know if he's restricted or not.

[Bert102176]

I would cut 1 thru 6 trade Freddy, sign Jairus Byrd, Andy Levitre, Leodis McKelvin, Tarvaris Jackson, Kyle Moore, Dorin Dickerson try and sign a good WR say Danny Amendola, Donnie Avery, Julian Edelman, Johny Knox, Dwayne Bowe, or Mike Wallace one of them, draft another say 3rd rd sign a Dustin Keller with the Jets the way they are why would he wanna go back, a Jared Cook, or Fred Davis one of those 3, as OL we need to look at Bryant McKinnie, Ryan Clady, Jake Long, Sebastian Vollmer, Jermon Bushrod one of those guys would be good.

[k-oneputt]

Bryan Scott and Justin Rogers. CUT.

[justasportsfan]

why do some of you want Freddie traded? What do you think we can get for him? I doubt we even get a 3rd. A 4th wont do us good. What insurance do we have behind Spiller? Choice? 1.6 million is nothing for a great insurance. If we draft a rookie qb, are you going to have Spiller block for him?

[Raptor]

Smart money is on Byrd getting resigned or tagged and then they let Levitre test the market where he signs elsewhere

I highly doubt the Bills get both done

[DraftBoy]

Smart money is on Byrd getting resigned or tagged and then they let Levitre test the market where he signs elsewhere

I highly doubt the Bills get both done

If Levitre hits the market he's gone and the Bills are in deep ****.

[Raptor]

If Levitre hits the market he's gone and the Bills are in deep ****.

Then prepare for them to be in deep ****, though I don't agree with that. I think OG's are far easier to replace than people make it out to be

Decisions need to be made and the bottom line is the Bills have Wood coming up next year and then Spiller the year after that. The Bills cant sign everyone, no team does. Some players are going to hit the market and its best to do so with the less impact-full positions. OG is one of those positions. Its likely a choice of signing Wood or Levitre long term, my guess is they are going to go with Wood and Levitre is as good as gone

[Ed]

Then prepare for them to be in deep ****, though I don't agree with that. I think OG's are far easier to replace than people make it out to be

Decisions need to be made and the bottom line is the Bills have Wood coming up next year and then Spiller the year after that. The Bills cant sign everyone, no team does. Some players are going to hit the market and its best to do so with the less impact-full positions. OG is one of those positions. Its likely a choice of signing Wood or Levitre long term, my guess is they are going to go with Wood and Levitre is as good as gone
The Bills have no big contracts tied up in the OL right now. They can re-sign Levitre and take care of Wood next year. Wood still needs to prove he's worth the investment by staying healthy for a season.

[Raptor]

The Bills have no big contracts tied up in the OL right now. They can re-sign Levitre and take care of Wood next year. Wood still needs to prove he's worth the investment by staying healthy for a season.


It doesnt matter if its tied up in the OL or not its still tied up.

To get Byrd and Levitre done its going to cost us about 13 million in cap space (Byrd:6 Levitre:7 ... and Im low balling it)

The Bills have at best 20 million available leaving 7 million to play with

You need about 4.5 million of that for draft picks

Leaving 2.5 million to fill out the roster.

I dont see how the Bills are bringing them both back and IMO its easier to replace an OG than it is a ball hawking Safety

[jimmifli]

Barnett is the only NFL caliber LB on the team. 3.5 is a fair price and I'd hate to create another hole.

[Raptor]

Barnett is the only NFL caliber LB on the team. 3.5 is a fair price and I'd hate to create another hole.


Agreed, if he is the best LB on your team you are in trouble. If he's the third best however you are in not to bad a shape

[cookie G]

If Levitre hits the market he's gone and the Bills are in deep ****.

yep.

That's the reason for the Urbik sigining. (who was probably overpaid).

When Levitre signs elsewhere for an ungodly amount, you'll hear, "well, you can't sign everyone, and we got 1 out of 2".

As if they are equal.

I don't have a good feeling about it.

[cookie G]

yep.

That's the reason for the Urbik sigining. (who was probably overpaid).

When Levitre signs elsewhere for an ungodly amount, you'll hear, "well, you can't sign everyone, and we got 1 out of 2".

As if they are equal.

I don't have a good feeling about it.


Then prepare for them to be in deep ****, though I don't agree with that. I think OG's are far easier to replace than people make it out to be

Decisions need to be made and the bottom line is the Bills have Wood coming up next year and then Spiller the year after that. The Bills cant sign everyone, no team does. Some players are going to hit the market and its best to do so with the less impact-full positions. OG is one of those positions. Its likely a choice of signing Wood or Levitre long term, my guess is they are going to go with Wood and Levitre is as good as gone

See? Started as I was typing my response.

[Ed]

It doesnt matter if its tied up in the OL or not its still tied up.

To get Byrd and Levitre done its going to cost us about 13 million in cap space (Byrd:6 Levitre:7 ... and Im low balling it)

The Bills have at best 20 million available leaving 7 million to play with

You need about 4.5 million of that for draft picks

Leaving 2.5 million to fill out the roster.

I dont see how the Bills are bringing them both back and IMO its easier to replace an OG than it is a ball hawking Safety
Cutting Kelsay and Wilson would free up almost $8 million alone. Nix has worked hard to build an established OL. It's unlikely that he's not going to spend money on the OL because they have money allocated to less important players. I'm pretty sure Nix values Levitre a lot more than a 34 year old Chris Kelsay.

[Raptor]

See? Started as I was typing my response.


There is a thing called a salary cap kid, look it up you seem to not understand it

[Raptor]

Cutting Kelsay and Wilson would free up almost $8 million alone. Nix has worked hard to build an established OL. It's unlikely that he's not going to spend money on the OL because they have money allocated to less important players. I'm pretty sure Nix values Levitre a lot more than a 34 year old Chris Kelsay.

Except they wont do that because every time people want Kelsay cut they seem to forget this franchises undying love for him.

They are also highly unlikely to cut team favorite G.Wilson as he is an insurance policy to the younger Searcy

[cookie G]

There is a thing called a salary cap kid, look it up you seem to not understand it

Yep.

And there's a number of guys on that awesome 31st ranked D that can go.
And it would be way smarter to give Levitre a few million more than Urbik, as it was to re-sign him.

A guy like Urbik can be found for the vet minimum. In fact, he was.

So you pay Levitre 5 million and dump a $2 million salary from a guy on the D.

A guy Levitre, not so much.

Go back to what DB said.

Urbik gets a lot of help from Wood. Levitre...rarely.

There's a reason for that.

[Ed]

Except they wont do that because every time people want Kelsay cut they seem to forget this franchises undying love for him.

They are also highly unlikely to cut team favorite G.Wilson as he is an insurance policy to the younger Searcy
Well if they want to overpay for crap then so be it, but if they would rather keep Levitre they can get it done. They have the flexibility to keep the guys they want.

[jimmifli]

Yep.

And there's a number of guys on that awesome 31st ranked D that can go.
And it would be way smarter to give Levitre a few million more than Urbik, as it was to re-sign him.

A guy like Urbik can be found for the vet minimum. In fact, he was.

So you pay Levitre 5 million and dump a $2 million salary from a guy on the D.

A guy Levitre, not so much.

Go back to what DB said.

Urbik gets a lot of help from Wood. Levitre...rarely.

There's a reason for that.
If they're starting a rookie QB next season they aren't doing it with a **** line. That was buddy's stated strategy, get a line that can protect, get a defense that can let a rookie play close games, then draft the QB.

Letting Andy go would be indefensibly stupid.

[GingerP]

If they're starting a rookie QB next season they aren't doing it with a **** line. That was buddy's stated strategy, get a line that can protect, get a defense that can let a rookie play close games, then draft the QB.

Letting Andy go would be indefensibly stupid.

Not only that, but your best offensive player is a RB. It would be easier for him to be the center of your offense and protect that young QB if you open up some holes for him to run.

[cookie G]

If they're starting a rookie QB next season they aren't doing it with a **** line. That was buddy's stated strategy, get a line that can protect, get a defense that can let a rookie play close games, then draft the QB.

Letting Andy go would be indefensibly stupid.

Yeah, and I'm assuming whoever the new coach is, they are going to want to feature Spiller more.

Another reason it is a bad idea.

I mean, hell, are they going to end up paying McLovin 4 million a year to play nickel?

I'd much rather have Levitre than Urbik and Mclovin.

You can plug Rhinehart into Urbik's spot and not really lose much.

But you can't do that with Levitre's spot.

[coastal]

U have to sign Levitre. Period.

our superstar is CJ.

ive always advocated for building strengths. CJ represents that... So build around him. The only way to do that is by not only not losing your best offensive linemen, but by improving the one position along that line that is sorely lacking... RT!

resign Tavaris whose strength is play action... Add another TE or two... Draft a QB in rounds 2-4... That's the makings of an offense that's built for football in Buffalo and perhaps helps turn the tide back from a QB driven league.

[X-Era]

why do some of you want Freddie traded? What do you think we can get for him? I doubt we even get a 3rd. A 4th wont do us good. What insurance do we have behind Spiller? Choice? 1.6 million is nothing for a great insurance. If we draft a rookie qb, are you going to have Spiller block for him?
I honestly feel like we can get better production from a rookie and we won't have anyone "needing" to share time due to some ridiculous loyalty based on past performance. CJ needs the rock 20 times a game. And the guy spelling him should be a fresh legged counterpart who can pound it between the tackles but has the quicks still to get 4 yards per.

[X-Era]

It doesnt matter if its tied up in the OL or not its still tied up.

To get Byrd and Levitre done its going to cost us about 13 million in cap space (Byrd:6 Levitre:7 ... and Im low balling it)

The Bills have at best 20 million available leaving 7 million to play with

You need about 4.5 million of that for draft picks

Leaving 2.5 million to fill out the roster.

I dont see how the Bills are bringing them both back and IMO its easier to replace an OG than it is a ball hawking SafetyTwo cuts from my list cover Levitre. Kelsay and McGee... Or three cuts in the form of McGee, Brad Smith, and Troup.

[X-Era]

Barnett is the only NFL caliber LB on the team. 3.5 is a fair price and I'd hate to create another hole.I'd keep him as a backup. But at 3+ mill he may not be worth it to fill that role. I'd rather cut him, recoup his 3+ and throw in another 2 mill for a legit starter.

[jimmifli]

I'd keep him as a backup. But at 3+ mill he may not be worth it to fill that role. I'd rather cut him, recoup his 3+ and throw in another 2 mill for a legit starter.
And then what about the other two spots? Cut the best LB on the team and replace him with some free agent that we need to overpay to put on our uniform? Great plan.

[X-Era]

And then what about the other two spots? Cut the best LB on the team and replace him with some free agent that we need to overpay to put on our uniform? Great plan.
5 mill is overpaying? No it isn't. 3+ Mill to start a backup is ridiculous.

[jimmifli]

Yeah, and I'm assuming whoever the new coach is, they are going to want to feature Spiller more.

Another reason it is a bad idea.

I mean, hell, are they going to end up paying McLovin 4 million a year to play nickel?

I'd much rather have Levitre than Urbik and Mclovin.

You can plug Rhinehart into Urbik's spot and not really lose much.

But you can't do that with Levitre's spot.

I've liked McLovin for the last two seasons. He's been better at corner and is an elite return guy. He's not the problem. They only have one starting CB, one S, one LB. Nickel CB isn't the reason the D sucks.

But there are other trade offs to be made. Even more important is the way Levitre fits with Spiller, the best part of his game is his ability to pull and get outside or downfield. We might get a decent replacement if we're lucky, but someone that can just push a pile or protect the QB isn't enough.

[jimmifli]

5 mill is overpaying? No it isn't. 3+ Mill to start a backup is ridiculous.

Players don't want to come here. Who ever you give $5 mil to will be overpaid. That's why he signed here. If you want a $5 million dollar LB to come to Buffalo, you'd have to pay him $7 million. I thought everybody figured that out last offseason.

I agree we need an upgrade at LB, but it's not at Barnett's spot. He's a decent NFL starter, it's the rest that are garbage.

[X-Era]

Players don't want to come here. Who ever you give $5 mil to will be overpaid. That's why he signed here. If you want a $5 million dollar LB to come to Buffalo, you'd have to pay him $7 million. I thought everybody figured that out last offseason.

I agree we need an upgrade at LB, but it's not at Barnett's spot. He's a decent NFL starter, it's the rest that are garbage.I'm not convinced that's totally true.

[Ed]

I'd keep him as a backup. But at 3+ mill he may not be worth it to fill that role. I'd rather cut him, recoup his 3+ and throw in another 2 mill for a legit starter.
Do you have anyone in mind? It seems like weak free agent class for LB's.

[GingerP]

5 mill is overpaying? No it isn't. 3+ Mill to start a backup is ridiculous.

He isn't a backup, he is a starter on this team. The problem is he is the best LB on the team. If you get rid of him, you now need another LB. However, there are a limited number of LB that would be an upgrade available. There may be a few in the draft, maybe a couple in FA. And, you are competing with every other team that needs one to get them.

You act like you can just manufacture another LB. Get rid of Barnett, and you create another hole. Who knows if you end up with a better player? I think the smarter bet is to keep him and try to improve one of the other LB positions.

[jimmifli]

I'm not convinced that's totally true.
We made a good DE the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. That's what it took.

[Mouldsie]

I say we get rid of our solid players and replace them with 5th round studs because they are too expensive.

Also, Ralph is cheap and we never spend money.

[X-Era]

He isn't a backup, he is a starter on this team. The problem is he is the best LB on the team. If you get rid of him, you now need another LB. However, there are a limited number of LB that would be an upgrade available. There may be a few in the draft, maybe a couple in FA. And, you are competing with every other team that needs one to get them.

You act like you can just manufacture another LB. Get rid of Barnett, and you create another hole. Who knows if you end up with a better player? I think the smarter bet is to keep him and try to improve one of the other LB positions.
His play is backup level. If he can be upgraded, he should be. And I never said we should cut him before adding his replacement. If we cannot upgrade him before the 2013 season starts, so be it.

But, I cannot call him a legit starter. He no longer is. I like the guy, but he simply isn't good enough anymore.

[Mr. Pink]

Barnett should stay til his contract is up. Simply because he's the best LB on the roster. The goal is to get better overall and if you let Barnett go and keep the other stiffs and sign someone new to play LB, you're basically doing a lateral move. Your corps of linebackers will still be weak overall.

[X-Era]

Do you have anyone in mind? It seems like weak free agent class for LB's.
From the draft I like guys like Khaseem Greene. I like Gerald Hodges but I think we now need a LB'er that can cover a lot of ground. DB detailed how a prime candidate for the OLB spot looks different than it used to. I agree.

[YardRat]

I expect Levitre and McKelvin to jump ship, and Byrd to be tagged.

That being said, these are the players that I would like to keep...

Freddie
Levitre
Byrd
McKelvin
Barnett
TJax
DJones
McIntyre
KMoore

I'd like to see Troup and Merriman at OTA's and TC one more time.

The rest can be cut or free to shop their skills elsewhere.

[coastal]

We made a good DE the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. That's what it took.
We signed a good DE? Really?

and Barnett is absolute ****. He's a slightly darker shade of Keith Ellison... Nothing more.

[The Jokeman]

We signed a good DE? Really?

and Barnett is absolute ****. He's a slightly darker shade of Keith Ellison... Nothing more.

Come on Barnett is way better than Ellison. That said I'm not happy with his play this season and all for looking for a veteran UFA to at least compete if not reaplace him in 2013. Also your hate on Mario has to stop. Is he worth the big contract we signed him to? At this point in time I say no but also think he's performed as well as we could hope or want if being realistic. As he's on pace to match his second best season in terms of sacks. I think what so many people fail to remember about Bruce Smith is he might have put up better numbers because often he was playing with the lead and opponents were forced to pass which gave him a better chance to get at the QB and say what you want but our LB core these days is horrible compared to those early 90s teams.

[coastal]

My hate of Mario is entirely warranted if you're someone who watched the games and watched Mario.

he got some sacks against some awful RTs and made not one lick of difference.

the Bills defense is among the worst in franchise history. The defense was gutless, underperformed, soft, and entirely forgettable.

just like Mario "Fools Gold" Williams.

[kishoph]

Jairus Byrd S UFA - must resign him
Tashard Choice RB UFA - let him walk
Dorin Dickerson TE RFA - meh
Tarvaris Jackson QB UFA - ?
Spencer Johnson DT UFA - 31 years old,can be replaced through draft
Donald Jones WR RFA - resign, has shown some good signs
Andy Levitre G UFA - must resign him
Ruvell Martin WR UFA - mediocre ST's are a dime a dozen
Corey McIntyre RB UFA - 33 years old, let him walk
Leodis McKelvin CB UFA - if the money is right, but he'll probably get some high offers
Shawne Merriman LB - certainly not lights out, but if he comes cheap, 1 more year
Kyle Moore DE UFA - resign, if he gets better in run support, he could be good
Bryan Scott LB UFA - kick him out
Mana Silva S UFA - who ?
David Snow G RFA - ? not very big, I haven't noticed him, which could be a good thing for an OL
Tyler Thigpen QB UFA - good-bye
Kraig Urbik G RFA - resigned, good move
Thomas Welch T RFA - meh, another small lineman
Keith Williams - ? says he has a good work ethic, strength and a nasty edge

[Mr. Pink]

Two cuts from my list cover Levitre. Kelsay and McGee... Or three cuts in the form of McGee, Brad Smith, and Troup.

Except they don't cover Levitre as you still need to sign guys to replace them.

[ServoBillieves]

Do you have anyone in mind? It seems like weak free agent class for LB's.

Chris Draft.

[justasportsfan]

I honestly feel like we can get better production from a rookie and we won't have anyone "needing" to share time due to some ridiculous loyalty based on past performance. CJ needs the rock 20 times a game. And the guy spelling him should be a fresh legged counterpart who can pound it between the tackles but has the quicks still to get 4 yards per.

Will all due respect, FJ is averaging 4 ypc and Trent Richardson 3.5. How is a rookie rb going to come in and give us better production than FJ? Choice has been on the team long enough and still can't do it. You also failed to mention what you think we could get for FJ. A 4th? Don't forget that our last 4th rd. pick (Tank Carder) didn't even make the team.

A rookie rb isn't going to block and receive as well as FJ unless you find one in the early rounds.

You also don't have to limit CJ's carries this time around. Make him carry the load and I doubt FJ is going to ***** this time. If he does, guess what he's going to do when he gets his chance? CJ has been hurt and hasn't proven he can carry the load all year long. The broncos haven't lost a step with Moreno finally stepping in for McGahee.

If we draft a qb in the early rounds it is essential that he has a rb who can block for him as well as be a dump off guy coming from the backfield. FJ is awesome at doing both and will be a HUGE asset in developing that rookie qb.

I would rather get rid of these guys for cap space (Fj isn't costing much to begin with)..
George Wilson.
Kelsay (now that Moore is coming into his own)
Spencer Johnson(now that Carrington is playing well in there)
Troup (injury prone)
Dead weights like Ruvell Martin, Brad Smith, Dorin Dickerson, Thigpen, Merriman.
With David Nelson coming back I can also get rid of Jones who's numbers can easily be replaced

Getting rid of FJ is going to making our position of strength so much weaker especially with a RB like Spiller who isn't 100% proven to be able to carry the load without getting injured.

[jimmifli]

We signed a good DE? Really?

and Barnett is absolute ****. He's a slightly darker shade of Keith Ellison... Nothing more.

He's the best LB we've had in years. He's nothing special, but the other two guys on the field are a liability. Barnett is not. I'd like to upgrade him, but only after you get Shep off the field (we play so much "nickel" that I live with an upgrade to 3rd DB over 3rd LB). If you can upgrade the other spots first, and still replace Barnett, I'm all for it. I just don't see how.

And yes, Mario is a good DE. He's Aaron Schobel with the ability to also bullrush. His contract is fair for his performance considering he had to come to a team that hasn't made the playoffs in a decade and a half and had one of the worst D's in the NFL.

[justasportsfan]

Bryan Scott LB UFA - kick him out
he's our buggest playmaker at lber. I know thats not saying much but I'd rather keep him than Moats or Chris White.

[jimmifli]

he's our buggest playmaker at lber. I know thats not saying much but I'd rather keep him than Moats or Chris White.
He's also our biggest "playgiverupper" at safety.

[DraftBoy]

We made a good DE the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. That's what it took.

He has a point.

Not to mention we also basically had to kidnap him for 72 hours.

[cookie G]

Come on Barnett is way better than Ellison. That said I'm not happy with his play this season and all for looking for a veteran UFA to at least compete if not reaplace him in 2013. Also your hate on Mario has to stop. Is he worth the big contract we signed him to? At this point in time I say no but also think he's performed as well as we could hope or want if being realistic.

As well as we can hope?

Man, people set a low bar for him.

One or 2 plays a game against bad OT's is the best we can hope?

We could have gotten that from Aaron Maybin...after he went on waivers.



As he's on pace to match his second best season in terms of sacks.

Good for fantasy owners who have him on their defense.

That's what I love about his sack stats.

"OOOO...did you see him beat Barry Richardson for that sack? He's awesome!"

EVERYONE beats Barry Richardson.

I mean, on 2 of his sacks against the Colts, he wasn't even blocked.

Arizona has been giving up sacks like a crack whore gives up oral sex. 2 of his sacks were against them.

Out of these sacks he's gotten this year, can you tell me anyone good he's went against.

Hell, on Sunday they put him over Russell Okung for a series. They had to move him back, because he was becoming Okung's *****.

There are people here who'd call him a physical freak for getting his jersey on right.




I think what so many people fail to remember about Bruce Smith is he might have put up better numbers because often he was playing with the lead and opponents were forced to pass which gave him a better chance to get at the QB and say what you want but our LB core these days is horrible compared to those early 90s teams.

First, mentioning him in the same breath as Bruce is a true slap on Bruce's legacy.

Bruce regularly lined up against the best linemen in the business.

For at least 4 games a year, he'd be going against Richmond Webb and Bruce Armstrong, both multiple pro bowlers

When he wasn't going against them, he'd be lined up against

-Anthony Munoz- hall of famer
-Bruce Matthews - hall of famer
-John Alt - multiple pro bowler
-Gary Zimmerman, multiple pro bowler

Guys like that. He didn't always win those battles, far from it. But he won his share.

And...he was in the battle. Those were my favorite games to watch Bruce. He was going against the best and you had the 2 best linemen on the field slugging it out. It was always good to watch him beat a scrub for a clean sack, but I was more impressed when he beat a John Alt or a Richmond Webb. I'm equally impressed that Bruce, as a DE, used to have average about 80-90 tackles a season. What's Mario got this year, 30? 35?

Mario likes to hang out on the left side, because the tackles generally aren't as agile or talented. Based on his physical freakiness, he should be beating people a hell of a lot more than 10 times a season.

And that's the thing...he could be a Bruce, or close to it. He has the talent. Its a different talent than Bruce, but its there.

But...he's lived off his physical ability alone since college. He has about 1 1/2 pass rush moves, after 7 years in the NFL.

There's a reason he was called out by Kyle Williams, and Kelsay, and Talley and to an extent, Bruce.

My rant. I've probably become a bigger Mario hater than Coastal.

But watching him play...and watching him closely, I don't know how anyone can be happy with him.

[justasportsfan]

He's also our biggest "playgiverupper" at safety.

thats because he plays linebacker. What has Moats and White done? Our linebackers as a whole have been "playgiveuppers"

[jimmifli]

thats because he plays linebacker. What has Moats and White done? Our linebackers as a whole have been "playgiveuppers"
It depends on the set really, there's a lot of plays he lines up deeper and plays more like a safety.

I'm not disagreeing that he's MUCH better than our other LB's. In a post above I said I'd like to keep Barnett and upgrade the other two LB spots, or one LB spot and the 5th DB spot. Moats/White have to go, and it's a toss up for me between Shep and Scott, but ideally I'd like to see both of those spots upgraded.

[GingerP]

thats because he plays linebacker. What has Moats and White done? Our linebackers as a whole have been "playgiveuppers"

Part of the problem is he is playing LB. He isn't one. I'd rather they have a real actual LB in base or real actual DB in nickel, not some tweener where they try to do both. There were too many games this year where they put in Scott at LB to match teams that spread the field and teams would recognize it and pound the Bills running the ball.

[X-Era]

He has a point.

Not to mention we also basically had to kidnap him for 72 hours.Did we abduct his wife to make her come out here?

[justasportsfan]

Part of the problem is he is playing LB. He isn't one. I'd rather they have a real actual LB in base or real actual DB in nickel, not some tweener where they try to do both. There were too many games this year where they put in Scott at LB to match teams that spread the field and teams would recognize it and pound the Bills running the ball.he's making plays better than the ones that are actually linebackers on this team. If there was anyone making more plays than him then by all accounts cut him. There isn't one. Does he occasionally get burned> Definitely, but not any more than the other linebackers on this team. He's doing a better job at covering TE's than anyone on the linebacking unit.

I'm not saying we can't find better players than Scott. But lets start by cutting those who aren't doing anything like Moats and White.

[X-Era]

he's making plays better than the ones that are actually linebackers on this team. If there was anyone making more plays than him then by all accounts cut him. There isn't one. Does he occasionally get burned> Definitely, but not any more than the other linebackers on this team. He's doing a better job at covering TE's than anyone on the linebacking unit.

I'm not saying we can't find better players than Scott. But lets start by cutting those who aren't doing anything like Moats and White.
I don't disagree on cutting either. I like Moats but I like him in a situational role where he can rush the passer. I don't want to rely on him in coverage or to make open field tackles.

[Mr. Pink]

First, mentioning him in the same breath as Bruce is a true slap on Bruce's legacy.

Bruce regularly lined up against the best linemen in the business.

For at least 4 games a year, he'd be going against Richmond Webb and Bruce Armstrong, both multiple pro bowlers

When he wasn't going against them, he'd be lined up against

-Anthony Munoz- hall of famer
-Bruce Matthews - hall of famer
-John Alt - multiple pro bowler
-Gary Zimmerman, multiple pro bowler

impressed that Bruce, as a DE, used to have average about 80-90 tackles a season. What's Mario got this year, 30? 35?

Mario likes to hang out on the left side, because the tackles generally aren't as agile or talented. Based on his physical freakiness, he should be beating people a hell of a lot more than 10 times a season.

And that's the thing...he could be a Bruce, or close to it. He has the talent. Its a different talent than Bruce, but its there.

My rant. I've probably become a bigger Mario hater than Coastal.

But watching him play...and watching him closely, I don't know how anyone can be happy with him.

On the Mario Williams front...he's on pace for his second best season ever, one monster game in the next two and he'll have his best statistical season ever and people are still bagging on him thinking he should have been better. This is the best season he's put up since 07 and on par with his 08 season. Meanwhile he played almost half the year with injury that required surgery.

You can only beat or better who you play or line up against.

What more did you expect out him? Seriously.

And the game is different today then back in Bruce Smith's era. Quote his tackle totals all you want as some kind of bar to measure Mario to. Demarcus Ware 19.5 sacks 48 tackles last year, Jared Allen 22 sacks 44 tackles last year, Elvis Dumervil 17 sacks 41 tackles in 2009, Merriman 17 sacks 49 tackles in 06.

Even still Bruce played about 18 full seasons in total due to injuries and had 1078 tackles...an average of 59 tackles a year.

[X-Era]

LB Johnathan Vilma may get cut:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/22/saints-facing-a-cap-mess-in-2013/

That's the sort of player that we need at LB.

[cookie G]

On the Mario Williams front...he's on pace for his second best season ever, one monster game in the next two 3728945and he'll have his best statistical season ever and people are still bagging on him thinking he should have been better. This is the best season he's put up since 07 and on par with his 08 season. Meanwhile he played almost half the year with injury that required surgery.

So this is the most we have to look forward to? Some garbage sacks against garbage offenses?

That helps explain why every defense he's been on has been towards the bottom of the league.

Damn, and this is as good as it gets, apparently.




Against NE, they moved him from the left to the right and back again, inside, outside, standing up, hand on the ground. He lined up against 2 good, but no where elite tackles.

No pressure, 0 sacks, 14 scoring drives out of their last 19.


[QUOTE=FunTimesYaY]
What more did you expect out him? Seriously.

More than 1 or 2 plays a game against weak competition. Seriously







And the game is different today then back in Bruce Smith's era. Quote his tackle totals all you want as some kind of bar to measure Mario to. Demarcus Ware 19.5 sacks 48 tackles last year, Jared Allen 22 sacks 44 tackles last year, Elvis Dumervil 17 sacks 41 tackles in 2009, Merriman 17 sacks 49 tackles in 06.

Even still Bruce played about 18 full seasons in total due to injuries and had 1078 tackles...an average of 59 tackles a year.

The only people who would even consider comparing him to Bruce are those too young to have seen Bruce play, or Mario's mother.

The D didn't get one iota better with him.

It would lose nothing without him.

[Mr. Pink]

I'd actually compare Mario to Schobel.

They produce almost exactly the same. The frustrating part is Mario has more talent than Aaron did but he just doesn't show up every play.

Thing is, he's doing exactly what he's done over his entire career so I don't know why anyone expected anything different. He's a 40 tackle 10ish sack a year guy. It's what he's always been and what he will continue to be.

[jimmifli]

I'd actually compare Mario to Schobel.

They produce almost exactly the same. The frustrating part is Mario has more talent than Aaron did but he just doesn't show up every play.

Thing is, he's doing exactly what he's done over his entire career so I don't know why anyone expected anything different. He's a 40 tackle 10ish sack a year guy. It's what he's always been and what he will continue to be.

That's what I thought we were getting. Schobel with a bullrush. And maybe the ability to sniff out a screen and set the edge a little better.

[kishoph]

People continue to dog Mario Williams and his salary, here some of the top paid DE's and their 2012 salaries.

Elvis Dumervil - $14 Million - $13.9 Million cap hit - 9 sacks
Jared Allen - $11.6 - $15 Million cap hit - 9 sacks
Tamba Hali - $11.3 Million - $14.3 Million cap hit- 8 sacks
Julius Peppers - $8.9 Million - $12.4 Million cap hit - 8.5 sacks
Mario Williams - $5.9 Million - 9.8 Million cap hit - 10.5 sacks

Cap hits may vary a little depending on the source.



Williams total money may be high, but his base salary is dirt cheap (NFL standards) until 2015 and his cap hit doesn't really get bad till 2014, but to complain about him right now it's foolish, come 2015 if he isn't producing at a high level then there's something to complain about, but doing it now doesn't make sense.

[kishoph]

Dumervil's cap hit is $18.9 Million.
I couldn't edit it on time.

[cookie G]

I'd actually compare Mario to Schobel.

They produce almost exactly the same. The frustrating part is Mario has more talent than Aaron did but he just doesn't show up every play.

Thing is, he's doing exactly what he's done over his entire career so I don't know why anyone expected anything different. He's a 40 tackle 10ish sack a year guy. It's what he's always been and what he will continue to be.

Well, Schobel's a bit of a step down from Bruce.

In actuality, he's no better than Kelsay, without the leadership qualities. He'll get 2-3 more garbage sacks, but that's about it

For the 2nd time in 2 weeks, the Beast was silent.

For the 3rd time in 2 weeks, he let the QB get outside him for a huge run. (The one today was hilarious).

A $15+ million a year non factor on what could be the worst D in Bills' history.


Well, we're stuck with his nonfactoredness for another 4 years.