LOST VS ADDED --- We're Worse than before FA

[Mahdi]

We lost Byrd, Carrington, Chandler, Kolb

Added Rivers, Graham and Williams


Are we adding a TE BETTER than Chandler? Don't see it

Are we adding a DL BETTER than Carrington? Don't see it

Byrd speaks for itself and only remaining QB that's worth anything is Vick

We are much much worse than before March 11th.

[better days]

We lost Byrd, Carrington, Chandler, Kolb

Added Rivers, Graham and Williams


Are we adding a TE BETTER than Chandler? Don't see it

Are we adding a DL BETTER than Carrington? Don't see it

Byrd speaks for itself and only remaining QB that's worth anything is Vick

We are much much worse than before March 11th.

The Bills lost Chandler? Who did he sign with?

[feldspar]

When did we lose Chandler and Carrington? Somebody sign those guys behind my back. And Kolb...we never had him in the first place. He failed his physical is what I heard as well.

Oh, the pain and chagrin of it all. Day two, and the roster should be set dammit.

[justasportsfan]

are we worse without Kolb even though he wasn't really here last year? On the flipside are better with Caussin now when we had Caussin (who didn't play) last year. ;)

[TedMock]

I don't see some as huge gains, but some I see as small gains. Rivers is a decent run-down LB. Better than Moats should he leave. We need help against the run. Not a bad situational guy to have. Graham is better than any 3rd CB we have, so I'm good there. I do not like Williams or Legursky. Push. Carrington? How good was he, exactly? I really liked his potential going into last year, but he was hurt all year, so we really have zero idea as to how well he may have played throughout the year. Having said that, I cannot make an educated guess without facts and data. Chandler is still out there. We may still re-sign him. We may also feel Moeaki is the better talent. Again, I don't know how he's healed either, so I can't say. Still, Chandler is a nice TE to have in the rotation and I wouldn't mind keeping him. I also don't feel he's much above an average TE. Kolb never played a down last year and may never play another. It's as if he never happened here. Push. Byrd? Huge loss. Production speaks for itself. I liked what Aaron Williams did as FS in Byrd's absence and I think Williams played better at FS than he did at SS. Having said that, I am under no illusion that Williams will easily fill Byrd's shoes. Byrd is a great FS.

[DBrown77]

yay, another thread about FA failure.

[Mahdi]

We have a huge hole at TE.

Carrington might have been injured but he was coming on very strong with Pettine. Our DL rotation suffered badly down the stretch which is one reason why we struggled against the run so much.

Kolb was a safety net that was supposed to win games in the event EJ went down. Are we happy with our current QBS?

And again, Byrd.

[Mahdi]

yay, another thread about FA failure.

What else is there to discuss? Our massive successes?

[DBrown77]

What else is there to discuss? Our massive successes?

Thats not my point

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/223127-Two-days-in

[DBrown77]

We have a huge hole at TE.

Carrington might have been injured but he was coming on very strong with Pettine. Our DL rotation suffered badly down the stretch which is one reason why we struggled against the run so much.

Kolb was a safety net that was supposed to win games in the event EJ went down. Are we happy with our current QBS?

And again, Byrd.

He was a beast with his 6 tackles in 9 games.

I didnt think he played very well last year. He was never consistant in his 4 years here and was over rated by the fans.

[Mr. Pink]

He was a beast with his 6 tackles in 9 games.

I didnt think he played very well last year. He was never consistant in his 4 years here and was over rated by the fans.

I agree with this. Carrington was useless outside of FG block units. Don't get why some people are enamored with him.

The loss of Byrd is huge though as there is really no way to replace him with someone better.

Losing a top end player and not attempting to sign a top end player is gonna automatically make any team worse, by default.

[jimmifli]

When did we lose Chandler and Carrington?
Monday at 4:00 pm.

[better days]

We have a huge hole at TE.

Carrington might have been injured but he was coming on very strong with Pettine. Our DL rotation suffered badly down the stretch which is one reason why we struggled against the run so much.

Kolb was a safety net that was supposed to win games in the event EJ went down. Are we happy with our current QBS?

And again, Byrd.

Carrington never played a game under Pettine.

The Bills struggled against the run, because Pettine went all in on the pass rush with the DL & the Bills didn't have the LB's to fill the gaps.

I think under Schwartz this year, & with some LB additions to the roster the Bills will play the run much better.

[GreedoII]

54 million for Byrd? No...

Carrington didn't play a down last year

Kolb's career is over

Chandler is a back up. has the dropsies too. He's a stiff....

Rivers provides depth after Moats= Upgrade
Graham provides secondary depth and is a very good special teamer (made pro bowl for special teams)=Upgrade for Special teams
Williams is a huge upgrade over Legursky and that train wreck Colin Brown=Upgrade

Stop whining and know your football dummy





We lost Byrd, Carrington, Chandler, Kolb

Added Rivers, Graham and Williams


Are we adding a TE BETTER than Chandler? Don't see it

Are we adding a DL BETTER than Carrington? Don't see it

Byrd speaks for itself and only remaining QB that's worth anything is Vick

We are much much worse than before March 11th.

[BertSquirtgum]

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003977705/82978086_whaaambulance_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

[YardRat]

Our draft picks this year suck, too.

[TedMock]

Just to clear things up - I mentioned Carrington being hurt all year. I did not mean it as in all year, rather most of the year, but figured everybody knew that. There have been some posts since stating that he did not play at all and this is not true. He was injured in week 3, so he did start 3 games. I don't remember at what point in the game he was hurt.

[Night Train]

Lets just cancel the draft and book a charter to the wailing wall.

[OpIv37]

yay, another thread about FA failure.

Blame the FO for failing, not the people making the threads.

[OpIv37]

54 million for Byrd? No...

Carrington didn't play a down last year

Kolb's career is over

Chandler is a back up. has the dropsies too. He's a stiff....

Rivers provides depth after Moats= Upgrade
Graham provides secondary depth and is a very good special teamer (made pro bowl for special teams)=Upgrade for Special teams
Williams is a huge upgrade over Legursky and that train wreck Colin Brown=Upgrade

Stop whining and know your football dummy
As far as Byrd goes, it's not your money. If we don't pay $54 million for Byrd, fine, but show me how that money is being used to make the team better. Right now, it's not, and if history is any indication, it won't be.

And I've never been a big Chandler fan, but who do we have that's equal or better? Once again, no one.

So, Chandler may not be all that great and Byrd may be too expensive, but at the moment, we have no one equal or better. We are worse off at two positions on a team that already lacked talent.

[EDS]

54 million for Byrd? No...

Carrington didn't play a down last year

Kolb's career is over

Chandler is a back up. has the dropsies too. He's a stiff....

Rivers provides depth after Moats= Upgrade
Graham provides secondary depth and is a very good special teamer (made pro bowl for special teams)=Upgrade for Special teams
Williams is a huge upgrade over Legursky and that train wreck Colin Brown=Upgrade

Stop whining and know your football dummy

Carrington did play in three games last season.

[GreedoII]

Draft is still coming and there are other quality FA stil out on the market. Plus other FA on this team that will need signing. Upgrades will be coming. To say they are worse is silly. Sure with Byrd gone but not with the other stiffs mentioned


As far as Byrd goes, it's not your money. If we don't pay $54 million for Byrd, fine, but show me how that money is being used to make the team better. Right now, it's not, and if history is any indication, it won't be.

And I've never been a big Chandler fan, but who do we have that's equal or better? Once again, no one.

So, Chandler may not be all that great and Byrd may be too expensive, but at the moment, we have no one equal or better. We are worse off at two positions on a team that already lacked talent.

[OpIv37]

Draft is still coming and there are other quality FA stil out on the market. Plus other FA on this team that will need signing. Upgrades will be coming. To say they are worse is silly. Sure with Byrd gone but not with the other stiffs mentioned

To say that they are worse is reality. The guys we lost are better than the guys we added. It's not set in stone yet, but at the moment, it's reality.

And news flash: the rest of the NFL gets to draft too. We need to close the talent gap between the good teams and us. We can't do that while they are also improving through the draft.

[justasportsfan]

To say that they are worse is reality. The guys we lost are better than the guys we added. It's not set in stone yet, but at the moment, it's reality.



since when was PAPER a reality? We haven't even had camp yet.

[better days]

Carrington did play in three games last season.

You are correct. Don't remember seeing him at all last year.

10 tackles in the 3 games.

[better days]

since when was PAPER a reality? We haven't even had camp yet.

That is Op. He said we were worse off for getting rid of Donald Jones & David Nelson last year at about this time.

[X-Era]

Good thing we have 4 and a half months and the draft before training camp starts.

[feldspar]

Good thing we have 4 and a half months and the draft before training camp starts.

Nope, it's over after two days.

[X-Era]

Chandlers back so that just leaves overpriced Byrd and Carrington.

[Mahdi]

Chandlers back so that just leaves overpriced Byrd and Carrington.

Fair enough.

Fair question though.... Do you think we have done anything to help us get into the playoffs in 2014?

[alohabillsfan]

Someone please start another FA the sky is falling thread, PS it doesn't matter who we sign until we have a proven capable QB!!!! Plan on 8-8 or 9-7 at best next year!

[X-Era]

Fair enough.

Fair question though.... Do you think we have done anything to help us get into the playoffs in 2014?Absolutely. I honestly think that. I think we've helped our chances to get there that it will be a stretch for us to make it still. We're not quite there yet.

For years I have complained about having green as the hills backups when we have 18 players go on IR.

Yet now we have added solid depth (at a minimum) at many spots. We're not going into the draft with huge holes. We are much more free to go BPA.

Depth is a major factor in making the playoffs IMO.

But to me it mostly starts and ends with the QB. We knew it was still EJ's job so this offseason wasn't going to have any impact on that anyways.

[X-Era]

Here's the thing. Look at the Fins. Blow a huge chunk of money and still don't make the playoffs. Signing big name FA's doesn't necessarily mean playoffs.

And the better question is who could we have signed that would have put us in the playoffs? I didn't see really anyone 1 or 2 guys that gets us 3 wins.

Yet I can see winning a few more games with depth.

Right now we have half the equation. We haven't gone through the draft yet. I feel like after the draft we will be able to look at the roster and at least on paper we will be solid at least across the board. That remains to be seen still I realize.

[pmoon6]

It's bad enough we get tedious threads about how bad we suck when we lose by three points in overtime, but to make a determination before the off season is over takes the cake.

[Mahdi]

Absolutely. I honestly think that. I think we've helped our chances to get there that it will be a stretch for us to make it still. We're not quite there yet.

For years I have complained about having green as the hills backups when we have 18 players go on IR.

Yet now we have added solid depth (at a minimum) at many spots. We're not going into the draft with huge holes. We are much more free to go BPA.

Depth is a major factor in making the playoffs IMO.

But to me it mostly starts and ends with the QB. We knew it was still EJ's job so this offseason wasn't going to have any impact on that anyways.

Problem is that the guys we signed are starters for us not depth.

[Mahdi]

It's bad enough we get tedious threads about how bad we suck when we lose by three points in overtime, but to make a determination before the off season is over takes the cake.

Obviously I was looking at how we look so far... Bring in a few solid pieces and that can change everything of course.

[X-Era]

Problem is that the guys we signed are starters for us not depth.
That's an assumption.

There is nothing that tells me that a rookie G can't supplant Chris Williams for example. No reason a LB can't start over Rivers. And I'm glad we have Graham as our #3 CB at a minimum.

If we draft Gabe Jackson in the 3rd round for example and if he plays well enough to earn the job, we'd have a young developing G with Chris Williams as his primary backup. Brown and Legursky (one of them) could be depth at RG.

[swiper]

What else is there to discuss? Our massive successes?

Well it would help if you were right.

The only real player the Bills lost was Byrd, who you knew was leaving Buffalo anyway, so stop whining. He's certainly replaceable.

[Mahdi]

Well it would help if you were right.

The only real player the Bills lost was Byrd, who you knew was leaving Buffalo anyway, so stop whining. He's certainly replaceable.

Replaceable? I don't agree. Can we win without him? Yes, but not with the current roster.

[OpIv37]

That is Op. He said we were worse off for getting rid of Donald Jones & David Nelson last year at about this time.

And we were. Even when the season started, we lacked experienced WR's to help EJ. Long term we may be better off but it was stupid to go into the season with a rookie QB and only one experienced WR, and the results on the field showed that.

[OpIv37]

since when was PAPER a reality? We haven't even had camp yet.

It's the reality at the moment.

Every year we have this discussion, as if great players are suddenly going to fall off trees and sign with the Bills. And every year the results are the same.....

And I can't be believe it's starting already...


We do nothing in FA... "Wait til camp, you'll see..."
We look like **** in camp- "wait til preseason, then we'll know what we have"
Starters look like garbage in preseason.... "Well wait til the games actually matter"
Regular season starts and we go 1-3 in Sept.... "They're a young team, they just need time to gel"
And then we finish with 5-6 wins.

[justasportsfan]

It's the reality at the moment.


Your definition of reality is something that has no proof or results? Really? It's still paper and you know it.


We do nothing in FA... "Wait til camp, you'll see..."
We look like **** in camp- "wait til preseason, then we'll know what we have"
Starters look like garbage in preseason.... "Well wait til the games actually matter"
Regular season starts and we go 1-3 in Sept.... "They're a young team, they just need time to gel"
And then we finish with 5-6 wins.

Was it a reality that the fins were better after all their FA signing from last year? It was paper and you were talking about how much better they got with their signings. We swept them with freaking Thad Lewis.

[OpIv37]

That's your standard? Sweeping the Fins even though they still finished with a better record than us?

Once again, Bills fans prove that they have accepted mediocrity.

[JoeMama]

It's bad enough we get tedious threads about how bad we suck when we lose by three points in overtime, but to make a determination before the off season is over takes the cake.

Sure, it's early.

But if we're going to play musical chairs with our defensive personnel when our D is on the brink of being very good, there is a sense we should be should be more aggressive in getting the right players to make it work.

The rest is just diffuse frustration about seeing the Pats, Jets, and Fins all improve their lot while we're idling. I wouldn't take it too personally.

[justasportsfan]

That's your standard? Sweeping the Fins even though they still finished with a better record than us?

Once again, Bills fans prove that they have accepted mediocrity.

No it's not my standard. It's me pointing out that for all the talk you made about the fins getting better ON PAPER, we swept them. Don't change the subject about me accepting mediocrity because I never said we're better than we were last year. Let's stick to reality vs. paper.


And since you think PAPER is a reality, since you think the bills are not as good because we lost Pettine, Schwartz had the titans in the top 10 3 times when he was the DC. One season they were had the best D. Pettine does not have that in his resume' where he clearly had full control of the calls . So by your definition, we have a better DC which is a reality?

[OpIv37]

No it's not my standard. It's me pointing out that for all the talk you made about the fins getting better ON PAPER, we swept them. Don't change the subject about me accepting mediocrity because I never said we're better than we were last year. Let's stick to reality vs. paper.


And since you think PAPER is a reality, since you think the bills are not as good because we lost Pettine, Schwartz had the titans in the top 10 3 times when he was the DC. One season they were had the best D. Pettine does not have that in his resume' where he clearly had full control of the calls . So by your definition, we have a better DC on PAPER.

Lmao... Every year you pull this bull****. "It's too early, it's only on paper so it doesn't matter, blah blah blah."

But every year, I'm right and the team sucks. Not a majority of years. Not very other year. Every. Single. Year. 10 years running.

People like you insist that it's too early to pass judgment or that people like me are *****ing just to *****, yet this website provides 10 straight years of history that you are wrong. So keep thinking that it's me. Keep thinking that it's too early. As usual, eventually the games will start and you will be forced to accept reality.

[justasportsfan]

Lmao... Every year you pull this bull****. "It's too early, it's only on paper so it doesn't matter, blah blah blah."

But every year, I'm right and the team sucks. Not a majority of years. Not very other year. Every. Single. Year. 10 years running.

People like you insist that it's too early to pass judgment or that people like me are *****ing just to *****, yet this website provides 10 straight years of history that you are wrong. So keep thinking that it's me. Keep thinking that it's too early. As usual, eventually the games will start and you will be forced to accept reality.


Once again, switching the subject. Don't call your self a REALIST when your definition of reality is PAPER.

[OpIv37]

Once again, switching the subject. Don't call your self a REALIST when your definition of reality is PAPER.news flash: there are no football games in March. At the moment, paper is reality because it's all we have.

[justasportsfan]

news flash: there are no football games in March. At the moment, paper is reality because it's all we have.

lol. So at the moment the reality is that the bills D is better because we have DC with better history than Pettine. Gotcha!.

[OpIv37]

lol. So at the moment the reality is that the bills D is better because we have DC with better history than Pettine. Gotcha!.
Only if you're dumb enough to think that players have nothing to do with the D and it's all the DC.

[justasportsfan]

Only if you're dumb enough to think that players have nothing to do with the D and it's all the DC.

never said that . but it's a FACT that coaches can make a team/unit better. Since we lost Byrd but signed a BETTER DC (reality by your definition ) then we moved sideways. But thats not what you're saying. You think we're not as good because we lost Pettine.

[better days]

Only if you're dumb enough to think that players have nothing to do with the D and it's all the DC.

Well, I guess Takeo Spikes is dumb then.

I heard him on with John Murphy say how important Coaching & Scheme are.

[OpIv37]

never said that . but it's a FACT that coaches can make a team/unit better. Since we lost Byrd but signed a BETTER DC (reality by your definition ) then we moved sideways. But thats not what you're saying. You think we're not as good because we lost Pettine.
I never said we got a better DC so I have no idea why you say that's my definition.

And even if he is better you have to deal with reality of players adjusting to their 3rd DC/scheme in 3 years.

[OpIv37]

Well, I guess Takeo Spikes is dumb then.

I heard him on with John Murphy say how important Coaching & Scheme are.
I didn't say coaching and scheme weren't important. I said the actual players are important too.

[better days]

I didn't say coaching and scheme weren't important. I said the actual players are important too.

Well, except for Byrd, the players are the same.

And Byrd did miss 6 games last year, some of which the Bills won.

I also expect some players to be added to improve the Defense.

[justasportsfan]

I didn't say coaching and scheme weren't important. I said the actual players are important too.

I never said you did but you did make your sentiments clear that losing Pettine was a blow to the team . BUt since we upgraded the DC position and lost only Byrd then it should be a wash no?

[OpIv37]

I never said you did but you did make your sentiments clear that losing Pettine was a blow to the team . BUt since we upgraded the DC position and lost only Byrd then it should be a wash no?

Based on what? That is assuming the loss of Byrd is equivalent to the gain of a better DC and assuming the DC actually is better. There is no basis for that.

[OpIv37]

Well, except for Byrd, the players are the same.

And Byrd did miss 6 games last year, some of which the Bills won.

I also expect some players to be added to improve the Defense.
Well we can't go on expectations- we have to go by what we actually have at the moment, which is that we lost Byrd and only gained some depth.

[justasportsfan]

Based on what? That is assuming the loss of Byrd is equivalent to the gain of a better DC and assuming the DC actually is better. There is no basis for that.

based on track record. Schwartz is better on paper than Pettine. It's not a reality in my opinion but based on your definition, paper is a reality .

[better days]

Well we can't go on expectations- we have to go by what we actually have at the moment, which is that we lost Byrd and only gained some depth.

Except as you said, no games are being played NOW.

If the Bills are behind for now that is fine, because they aren't losing any games.

What matters is where they are when the REAL games start.

[OpIv37]

based on track record. Schwartz is better on paper than Pettine. It's not a reality in my opinion but based on your definition, paper is a reality .

First, how do you figure that Schwartz is better than Pettine?

Second, even if Schwartz is better, how do you figure that the difference between Schwartz and Pettine is the same as the loss of Byrd? When I'm saying there's no basis for it, that's what I mean. Even if Schwartz is better, there is no way to quantify it and say that gaining Schwartz improves the D enough to compensate for the loss of Byrd.

- - - Updated - - -


Except as you said, no games are being played NOW.

If the Bills are behind for now that is fine, because they aren't losing any games.

What matters is where they are when the REAL games start.

Well all we know is where they are now, and where they are now is disappointing.

[justasportsfan]

First, how do you figure that Schwartz is better than Pettine? Like I said, track record. Schwatrz had the titans in the top 10 3X as the DC of titans. One season they had the best. I've stated it's paper. It's not reality but based on what you said it's IT"S ALL WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT therefore a REALITY. Your logic, NOT MINE.

[OpIv37]

Like I said, track record. Schwatrz had the titans in the top 10 3X as the DC of titans. One season they had the best. I've stated it's paper. It's not reality but based on what you said it's IT"S ALL WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT therefore a REALITY. Your logic, NOT MINE.

Ok, you still haven't told me why you think the gain of Schwartz is equal to the loss of Byrd. Gains and losses don't come in equal increments. Some carry more weight than others.

[justasportsfan]

Ok, you still haven't told me why you think the gain of Schwartz is equal to the loss of Byrd. Gains and losses don't come in equal increments. Some carry more weight than others.

The D was way better WITHOUT Byrd under Pettine than the D WITH Byrd under Wanny. Thats how much coaching can affect a team......Checkmate.

[OpIv37]

The D was way better WITHOUT Byrd under Pettine than the D WITH Byrd under Wanny. Thats how much coaching can affect a team......Checkmate.

And you don't think the 10 other guys on the field make a difference? Wanny only had one year of Mario and he played like **** that year. He didn't have Kiko and he had A Williams sucking at CB instead of playing well at S. Dareus was also a rookie and did nothing for the first half of Wanny's last season. He had Kelvin Sheppard instead of Jerry Hughes, who gave us 10 sacks.

Checkmate my ass- you're comparing apples to oranges.

[justasportsfan]

And you don't think the 10 other guys on the field make a difference? Wanny only had one year of Mario and he played like **** that year. He didn't have Kiko and he had A Williams sucking at CB instead of playing well at S. Dareus was also a rookie and did nothing for the first half of Wanny's last season. He had Kelvin Sheppard instead of Jerry Hughes, who gave us 10 sacks.

Checkmate my ass- you're comparing apples to oranges.


haha! Who do you think schemed for those players to produce? Who put the very same players in positions to succeed. THE COACH. I don't care if Mario played like crap. He played like crap because Wanny was conservative. Wanny played not to lose. Even if Kiko and Hughes were here under Wanny. They wouldn't have done anything like Mario under Wanny. Just Peyton would have done nothing under Jauron playing not to lose.

Huh? Dareus was a rookie in Wanny last year?get your facts straight.

So now you're arguing Pettine didn't have an impact on the D last year. LOSING Pettine is one of the reasons you think the D won't be better. You're arguing with yourself again. You just chekmated yourself again.

[OpIv37]

Wrong.

Mario played poorly because he was hurt. Hughes and Kiko weren't there, so the only guy who improved because of scheme was A Williams, and that was coupled with a position change. So it's a double variable situation- there is no way to tell if the position change made him better or the scheme.

And anyway, even if Schwartz is better, you are completely discounting the learning curve of the 3rd system in 3 years.

[justasportsfan]

Wrong.

Mario played poorly because he was hurt. Hughes and Kiko weren't there, so the only guy who improved because of scheme was A Williams, and that was coupled with a position change. So it's a double variable situation- there is no way to tell if the position change made him better or the scheme. how do you explain Kyle, Dareus, Searcy, etc. playing better in a NEW scheme under Pettine? Did they just magically get it at the same time? Nope. It was Pettine.




And anyway, even if Schwartz is better, you are completely discounting the learning curve of the 3rd system in 3 years.WRONG. the learning curve affected the D in a very positive manner from Wanny to Pettine. The proof is there which is why you are worried about losing Pettine.

Your argument is ,talent/players are the reason the unit succeed. Yet a lot of those SAME talent/players got worse under Wanny. Team get's Pettine and the team/players plays better. then Pettine leaves and now you're worried about Pettine leaving. You're arguing with yourself. If you can't see that, nothing I can do.

[YardRat]

Well we can't go on expectations- we have to go by what we actually have at the moment, which is that we lost Byrd and only gained some depth.

And yet it's completely logical for you to expect, at this point, that the player replacing Byrd won't perform equally as well, or better.

Mmmmkay.....

[OpIv37]

And yet it's completely logical for you to expect, at this point, that the player replacing Byrd won't perform equally as well, or better.

Mmmmkay.....

Yeah, it is logical. If this team has taught you anything over that the last 14 years, it should be not to believe anything until you see it. Who do we have that's proven to be equal or better than Byrd? No one. Hell, there are only maybe 10 safeties in the entire NFL better than him, maybe fewer.

So yeah, odds are whoever replaces Byrd won't be as good. It's very logical.

[OpIv37]

how do you explain Kyle, Dareus, Searcy, etc. playing better in a NEW scheme under Pettine? Did they just magically get it at the same time? Nope. It was Pettine.


WRONG. the learning curve affected the D in a very positive manner from Wanny to Pettine. The proof is there which is why you are worried about losing Pettine.

Your argument is ,talent/players are the reason the unit succeed. Yet a lot of those SAME talent/players got worse under Wanny. Team get's Pettine and the team/players plays better. then Pettine leaves and now you're worried about Pettine leaving. You're arguing with yourself. If you can't see that, nothing I can do.

Argue in circles all you want. The team's gonna suck yet again.

[YardRat]

Yeah, it is logical. If this team has taught you anything over that the last 14 years, it should be not to believe anything until you see it. Who do we have that's proven to be equal or better than Byrd? No one. Hell, there are only maybe 10 safeties in the entire NFL better than him, maybe fewer.

So yeah, odds are whoever replaces Byrd won't be as good. It's very logical.

Maybe you should take your own advice, instead of trying to prop up your viewpoint with faulty 'logic'.

[OpIv37]

Maybe you should take your own advice, instead of trying to prop up your viewpoint with faulty 'logic'.

That doesn't make sense. Everything I've said is based on what we have seen and what we already know, and based on that, we are worse.

Every year, someone tries to pull this "well you don't know, anything could happen" ****. And every year I'm right and the results are the same.

[Goobylal]

The Bills are significantly better than they were. Byrd's loss will be a non-factor.

[YardRat]

That doesn't make sense. Everything I've said is based on what we have seen and what we already know, and based on that, we are worse.

Every year, someone tries to pull this "well you don't know, anything could happen" ****. And every year I'm right and the results are the same.

You have no freaking clue whether or not we are worse or better, and to insinuate you do, and you are right, is asinine.

Maybe you were one of those that also labeled the Hughes for Sheppard trade as 'garbage for garbage'.

[OpIv37]

You have no freaking clue whether or not we are worse or better, and to insinuate you do, and you are right, is asinine.

Maybe you were one of those that also labeled the Hughes for Sheppard trade as 'garbage for garbage'.

Lmao. I've been right 10 years running. Try to make it about me all you want. We know how this rerun ends.

[Fixxxer]

Buffalo Rumblings ‏@BuffRumblings 4m

.@john_wawrow reports that the #Bills have agreed to terms with Brandon Spikes. http://sbn.to/1fYvlxb

[Mahdi]

I'd say this move improves us. Spikes is a run stuffer we haven't had In a long while. His performance vs play action will be key.

[OpIv37]

Makes me feel better- remember all my previous posts in this thread were before the signing.

[psubills62]

I think Schwartz was a very solid hire. However, Pettine was a very good DC, IMO. We lacked the CB talent needed to really make his defense elite, but he made do. Hughes always had more potential than Sheppard, but the fact that Pettine tapped that potential says a lot about his abilities as a DC. Hard to say that he benefited from a talent upgrade when he's the one who brought out the talent. It's not always about finding the most talented players, it's about finding the right fit. Guys like Manny Lawson and Hughes were definitely the right fit for Pettine's D.

It sucks to lose Byrd, but right now I think the Bills are going about FA the right way. I've never been a fan of paying huge contracts to the top guys, but I do think Tier 2 and Tier 3 free agents are where you get the value. Get the core guys/young talent through the draft, use FA at most to fill in the roster around the core guys and young talent.

[Meathead]

russ is cheap

[YardRat]

Lmao. I've been right 10 years running. Try to make it about me all you want. We know how this rerun ends.

OK, Copernicus.

[Night Train]

After the 2 signings last night, I 'd say we've done a great job filling needs over the first 4 days of FA.

Hats off to Whaley for staying clear of the first 24 hours of insane spending, then getting more quality bodies at reasonable prices.

[OpIv37]

OK, Copernicus.

I'm not Copernicus. I'm just someone capable of seeing things how they are instead of how I want them to be.

[OpIv37]

After the 2 signings last night, I 'd say we've done a great job filling needs over the first 4 days of FA.

Hats off to Whaley for staying clear of the first 24 hours of insane spending, then getting more quality bodies at reasonable prices.

Or risking someone else signing the guys he wanted by waiting so long... However you want to look at it I guess.

[YardRat]

I'm not Copernicus. I'm just someone capable of seeing things how they are instead of how I want them to be.

OK, Nostradamus. Considering you are capable of seeing how things are, what is the Bill's W-L record this season?

[OpIv37]

OK, Nostradamus. Considering you are capable of seeing how things are, what is the Bill's W-L record this season?

Bit early to make that call. For now, I'll leave it at "not good."

[YardRat]

Bit early to make that call. For now, I'll leave it at "not good."

And yet it's not a 'bit early' to make other calls...letting Byrd walk was a mistake, this front office sucks, EJ Manuel sucks, yadda yadda yadda.

[feldspar]

I'm not Copernicus. I'm just someone capable of seeing things how they are instead of how I want them to be.

You're a ********* if you think your opinion is fact...why do you even bother?

[OpIv37]

You're a douchebag if you think your opinion is fact...why do you even bother?

You're a ******** if you think all opinions are equally valid. Some are based on fact and logic. Others are based in wishful thinking.

[OpIv37]

And yet it's not a 'bit early' to make other calls...letting Byrd walk was a mistake, this front office sucks, EJ Manuel sucks, yadda yadda yadda.
We don't have another S equal to or better than Byrd and one won't be available before the season starts, so it's absolutely not too early to make that call.

And the FO does suck- they've proven it time and time again. And I'm not talking about Whaley. I'm talking about Ralph's yes-men who pull the strings and won't let football people run the football team.

And I never said EJ sucks. I have my doubts but it's too early to make that call.

[justasportsfan]

Don't forget that Opiv was convinced that Ralph major leagued the team. Yeah, he's always right :crazy:

[justasportsfan]

You're a douchebag if you think all opinions are equally valid. Some are based on fact and logic. Others are based in wishful thinking.
Paper is reality :lmao:

[OpIv37]

Paper is reality :lmao:

Yup, just like it was last year and the year before that and the year before that and the year before that and the year before that and.....

[OpIv37]

Don't forget that Opiv was convinced that Ralph major leagued the team. Yeah, he's always right :crazy:

Got a link on that? I recall saying that I was starting to believe it because it's the only explanation for the team being so bad, but I don't recall ever saying that I was convinced.

I am convinced that Ralph- previously on his win, now by proxy through Russ- runs the team with the bottom dollar coming first and winning being a secondary concern.

[better days]

We don't have another S equal to or better than Byrd and one won't be available before the season starts, so it's absolutely not too early to make that call.

And the FO does suck- they've proven it time and time again. And I'm not talking about Whaley. I'm talking about Ralph's yes-men who pull the strings and won't let football people run the football team.

And I never said EJ sucks. I have my doubts but it's too early to make that call.

Donnie Henderson the Bills DB's coach said he saw the same traits in Aaron Williams that he saw in Ed Reed.

Byrd while a very good Safety, does not have those traits.

Williams is faster than Byrd & also younger. If not next year, by the year after, Williams will be better than Byrd.

And I doubt Byrd sees all 6 years of his contract.

[better days]

You're a ******** if you think all opinions are equally valid. Some are based on fact and logic. Others are based in wishful thinking.

It is not reality to think all your opinions are based on fact & logic.

Because the front office did something 10 years ago & failed does not have anything to do with the front office today.

That is a fact & logical.

[YardRat]

We don't have another S equal to or better than Byrd and one won't be available before the season starts, so it's absolutely not too early to make that call.

Again...you have no clue whether or not A.Williams, or whoever replaces Byrd, will be 'better' or not. Not a clue.


And the FO does suck- they've proven it time and time again. And I'm not talking about Whaley. I'm talking about Ralph's yes-men who pull the strings and won't let football people run the football team.

You know that Overdorf and Littman (I'm assuming that's who you are referring to...oh yeah, you're a Brandon hater also) were the ones that 'pulled the strings' to bring in Spikes and sign him, sign Graham while he was on a visit to another team, re-sign Chandler and Carpenter, etc. Interesting. Once again, you know this how? What evidence do you have that Whaley isn't the one making the calls? Who would Whaley have signed if he wasn't hamstringed by The Big 3?

[better days]

Again...you have no clue whether or not A.Williams, or whoever replaces Byrd, will be 'better' or not. Not a clue.



You know that Overdorf and Littman (I'm assuming that's who you are referring to...oh yeah, you're a Brandon hater also) were the ones that 'pulled the strings' to bring in Spikes and sign him, sign Graham while he was on a visit to another team, re-sign Chandler and Carpenter, etc. Interesting. Once again, you know this how? What evidence do you have that Whaley isn't the one making the calls? Who would Whaley have signed if he wasn't hamstringed by The Big 3?

When asked who was REALLY in charge the other day, Russ said that as GM, Whaley made ALL FOOTBALL decisions.

Whaley decides who comes & who goes. Russ said Overdorf & Littman were UNDER Whaley & took their orders from him.

Russ also called the question sophomoric.

sophomoric: being overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature

[Mr. Pink]

OK, Nostradamus. Considering you are capable of seeing how things are, what is the Bill's W-L record this season?

6-10

Like it's hard to pick their record ahead of time. They're in 14 years of predictable sub .500 football.

[justasportsfan]

Got a link on that? I recall saying that I was starting to believe it because it's the only explanation for the team being so bad, but I don't recall ever saying that I was convinced.




Here you go. Not only did you say it, it was your thread title. You whine so much for the sake of whining that you actually forget what you whined about.



I'm convinced we are being Major League'd.....

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/215608-I-m-convinced-we-are-being-Major-League-d?highlight=

[TacklingDummy]

We're Worse than before FA

I disagree.
We are about even.
We still dont have a QB.
So around 6-10 we will be again.

[OpIv37]

When asked who was REALLY in charge the other day, Russ said that as GM, Whaley made ALL FOOTBALL decisions.

Whaley decides who comes & who goes. Russ said Overdorf & Littman were UNDER Whaley & took their orders from him.

Russ also called the question sophomoric.

sophomoric: being overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature
Lmao- like Russ is going to come out and publicly say "we're a dysfunctional organization that lets the bean counters make every decision based solely on how it affects the bottom line."

[OpIv37]

Again...you have no clue whether or not A.Williams, or whoever replaces Byrd, will be 'better' or not. Not a clue.



You know that Overdorf and Littman (I'm assuming that's who you are referring to...oh yeah, you're a Brandon hater also) were the ones that 'pulled the strings' to bring in Spikes and sign him, sign Graham while he was on a visit to another team, re-sign Chandler and Carpenter, etc. Interesting. Once again, you know this how? What evidence do you have that Whaley isn't the one making the calls? Who would Whaley have signed if he wasn't hamstringed by The Big 3?

There are only maybe 10 safeties in the entire world who are as good as Byrd. Can I say, 100%, without a doubt that whoever replaces Byrd won't be as good? No, but I can say that it's extremely, extremely unlikely that we are going to have a S as good as Byrd when the season starts this year.

The evidence I have that Whaley isn't making the calls is the Tim Graham article. That, and results. GM's have changed, coaches have changed, players have changed, results are the same because Ralph and his yes-men are the same.

[feldspar]

I disagree.
We are about even.
We still dont have a QB.
So around 6-10 we will be again.

Even if you think that way, you need to take into account a whole bunch of intangibles such as player development, coaching variables, staying healthy, and things like that. Our entire secondary was out for a stretch last year pretty much. We had 3 inexperienced QBs playing musical chairs...only 2 WRs with even a single NFL catch, and one of them was TJ Graham. I think the Bills were more of an 8-8 team last year, personally.

There is the draft. The roster is not close to being set.

You can say we'll suck again if you want, but this won't exactly be the same team as last year. We'll probably have about 5 or 6 new starters on it, more depth, and some different rotational players.

QB is the major concern, though.

[EDS]

Even if you think that way, you need to take into account a whole bunch of intangibles such as player development, coaching variables, staying healthy, and things like that. Our entire secondary was out for a stretch last year pretty much. We had 3 inexperienced QBs playing musical chairs...only 2 WRs with even a single NFL catch, and one of them was TJ Graham. I think the Bills were more of an 8-8 team last year, personally.

There is the draft. The roster is not close to being set.

You can say we'll suck again if you want, but this won't exactly be the same team as last year. We'll probably have about 5 or 6 new starters on it, more depth, and some different rotational players.

QB is the major concern, though.

The draft will help no doubt, but it will help every team, so it is what it is. I also do not believe player development is linear so we can expect certain players to regress and others to improve.

Basically though, this season comes down to QB play and coaching since they should not be dependent on rookies.

[Strongman]

When asked who was REALLY in charge the other day, Russ said that as GM, Whaley made ALL FOOTBALL decisions.

Whaley decides who comes & who goes. Russ said Overdorf & Littman were UNDER Whaley & took their orders from him.

Russ also called the question sophomoric.

sophomoric: being overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature

I'm not trying to be an a-hole or anything like that, but what else would Brandon be expected say? If he admitted that the beancounters were strongly influencing the football decisions, I doubt that would help tickets sales and confirm many people's suspicions. For the record, I think the Bills do try to put the best product on the field they can, but their eye on the bottom line hampers their success year in and year out. The way they currently run things results in a team that has a sub 0.500 record each year.

[YardRat]

There are only maybe 10 safeties in the entire world who are as good as Byrd. Can I say, 100%, without a doubt that whoever replaces Byrd won't be as good? No, but I can say that it's extremely, extremely unlikely that we are going to have a S as good as Byrd when the season starts this year.

The evidence I have that Whaley isn't making the calls is the Tim Graham article. That, and results. GM's have changed, coaches have changed, players have changed, results are the same because Ralph and his yes-men are the same.

Graham says he isn't...Brandon says he is...I guess it comes down to who to believe, and if Russ is on the 'new breed' team or the 'yes-men' team, which Graham never clarified and you, once again, have no clue as to what the truth is.

[better days]

Lmao- like Russ is going to come out and publicly say "we're a dysfunctional organization that lets the bean counters make every decision based solely on how it affects the bottom line."

Because as he said, that is NOT the case.

SOPHOMORIC!

[OpIv37]

Because as he said, that is NOT the case.

SOPHOMORIC!
It's sophomoric to believe that Russ Brandon would own up to it if it was the case.

[better days]

It's sophomoric to believe that Russ Brandon would own up to it if it was the case.

The FACT is Russ is in CHARGE. Ralph turned the team over to him & made him the defacto owner. That was announced to the WORLD!

If Overdorf or Littman had more power than Russ, why in the World would they not just say so?

[OpIv37]

The FACT is Russ is in CHARGE. Ralph turned the team over to him & made him the defacto owner. That was announced to the WORLD!

If Overdorf or Littman had more power than Russ, why in the World would they not just say so?

Because it would prove the complete and utter organizational dysfunction that many of us suspect.

[better days]

Because it would prove the complete and utter organizational dysfunction that many of us suspect.

SOPHOMORIC.

[better days]

I'm not trying to be an a-hole or anything like that, but what else would Brandon be expected say? If he admitted that the beancounters were strongly influencing the football decisions, I doubt that would help tickets sales and confirm many people's suspicions. For the record, I think the Bills do try to put the best product on the field they can, but their eye on the bottom line hampers their success year in and year out. The way they currently run things results in a team that has a sub 0.500 record each year.

Russ JUST TOOK OVER. I say give it some time & we will see if things have changed or not.

So far I like what has done this offseason.

Pettine left to be the HC at Cleveland. The Bills had no control over that.

But the Bills did have control over Pettine's replacement.

In the past that would have been a hire from within or a lower lever person from another team getting a promotion to be the Bills DC.

This year it was former Lions HC & past DC Schwartz. Do you think the bean counters influenced that decision? ( although the Lions will be on the hook for his salary this year)

The Bills also hired Pepper Johnson. A bean counter decision?

Russ laid it all out, He is in charge of the entire team as defacto owner & Whaley is in charge of all things football related. Overdorf & Littman are under Whaley & are told by Whaley what he wants done.

People that want to live in a fantasy world like Tim Graham & Op will just have to wait & see.

[Strongman]

Russ JUST TOOK OVER. I say give it some time & we will see if things have changed or not.

So far I like what has done this offseason.

Pettine left to be the HC at Cleveland. The Bills had no control over that.

But the Bills did have control over Pettine's replacement.

In the past that would have been a hire from within or a lower lever person from another team getting a promotion to be the Bills DC.

This year it was former Lions HC & past DC Schwartz. Do you think the bean counters influenced that decision? ( although the Lions will be on the hook for his salary this year)

The Bills also hired Pepper Johnson. A bean counter decision?

Russ laid it all out, He is in charge of the entire team as defacto owner & Whaley is in charge of all things football related. Overdorf & Littman are under Whaley & are told by Whaley what he wants done.

People that want to live in a fantasy world like Tim Graham & Op will just have to wait & see.

That's a reasonable take on it, although I don't think the hiring of Schwartz and Johnson prove or disprove anything about the FO factoring in the bottomline in it's football decisions. I've been waiting for 20+ years on this organization to turn it around and I'm not nearly as optimistic as you. I love the Bills, but hate their front office. The only good thing I can say about them is they do keep the ticket prices reasonable.

[EDS]

Russ JUST TOOK OVER. I say give it some time & we will see if things have changed or not.

In the past that would have been a hire from within or a lower lever person from another team getting a promotion to be the Bills DC.

This year it was former Lions HC & past DC Schwartz. Do you think the bean counters influenced that decision? ( although the Lions will be on the hook for his salary this year)



Wasn't the team's DC coordinator just two seasons ago a former NFL head coach? Obviously the Stache was hired as a marketing ploy. Let's hope they did not make that same mistake again.

[better days]

Wasn't the team's DC coordinator just two seasons ago a former NFL head coach? Obviously the Stache was hired as a marketing ploy. Let's hope they did not make that same mistake again.

He was, but he was also out of the NFL a long period of time, the game has passed him by.

[PromoTheRobot]

I'm not Copernicus. I'm just someone capable of seeing things how they are instead of how I want them to be.

No, you are a broken record.

[PromoTheRobot]

Makes me feel better- remember all my previous posts in this thread were before the signing.

Yes and you guaranteed that the Bills would do nothing based on your amazing grasp of reality. :lol:

[OpIv37]

No, you are a broken record.

Lmao- yeah I'm the broken record

2009- 6-10
2010 4-12
2011 6-10
2012 6-10
2013 6-10

Don't blame me because the team makes the same mistakes over and over and over and over again.

Every year people accuse me of being a "broken record" but every year I'm right. It's not me that's broken. It's the team.

[SpikedLemonade]

Lmao- yeah I'm the broken record

2009- 6-10
2010 4-12
2011 6-10
2012 6-10
2013 6-10

Don't blame me because the team makes the same mistakes over and over and over and over again.

Every year people accuse me of being a "broken record" but every year I'm right. It's not me that's broken. It's the team.

Why so competitive? Why so serious? Why can't you just be happy there still is NFL football in Buffalo? Lower your standards.

[better days]

Why so competitive? Why so serious? Why can't you just be happy there still is NFL football in Buffalo? Lower your standards.

The better question is why can't YOU be happy there still is NFL football in Buffalo?

[OpIv37]

The better question is why can't YOU be happy there still is NFL football in Buffalo?

Because simply having football isn't enough. The team has to be successful. We are in the midst of the longest running playoff drought in the league.

This is what I mean by Bills fans accepting mediocrity. When the Bills can't compete with the league standards (in this case, winning) they simply lower the bar to merely having a team then get mad at anyone who isn't satisfied with the Bills accomplishing the new mediocre standard.

[better days]

Because simply having football isn't enough. The team has to be successful. We are in the midst of the longest running playoff drought in the league.

This is what I mean by Bills fans accepting mediocrity. When the Bills can't compete with the league standards (in this case, winning) they simply lower the bar to merely having a team then get mad at anyone who isn't satisfied with the Bills accomplishing the new mediocre standard.

It would not matter how successful the Bills are to Spiked.

He is all for the Bills moving.

[Goobylal]

It would not matter how successful the Bills are to Spiked.

He is all for the Bills moving.
Is that true, Spiked?

[better days]

Is that true, Spiked?

He has posted before that he thinks the Bills will move & that he would like to see them moved.

[feldspar]

I don't get it when people talk about "just being happy that Buffalo has a football team." Personally, I take it for granted that Buffalo has a team because I've never known it to be otherwise. It's a given. A constant in my life. If that were to ever change, then I'd deal with it at that point in time.

But having a football team IS good. It's entertaining, and if is wasn't, I would not tune in.

People project WAY too much into it a lot of the time. Any problem you have with it is just that...your own problem. If it bothers you that much, you should find a hobby or something instead of obsessing and screaming "that's unacceptable!" every day, even in the offseason.

[Fletch]

But having a football team IS good. It's entertaining, and if is wasn't, I would not tune in.

People project WAY too much into it a lot of the time. Any problem you have with it is just that...your own problem. If it bothers you that much, you should find a hobby or something instead of obsessing and screaming "that's unacceptable!" every day, even in the offseason.

Well, that's what many of us do.

Unlike you, I don't view incompetence on the field as being entertaining. I viewed the Polian era as entertaining.

I'd rather watch a good generic football game between two competent teams than to watch us with our plethora of coaching miscues and blunders, eratic performances from the players due to poor coaching, lack of quality play due to lack of talent in key positions, etc.

If that's entertaining to you I'm not quite sure what to say. It isn't for me and many other die-hard Bills fans that I know. It's also wrong for you or anyone else to imply or insist that we're wrong for not being entertained by the slop that's been offered by what is now officially the NFL's most beleaguered and hapless team using playoff appearances as the standard.

It's those that are entertained by sub-par football that enables the team to keep putting out this slop successfully from a marketing perspective. If people expressed disapproval, dissatisfaction, manifested by their lack of being entertained, then the chances that something would actually change might actually increase. They wouldn't diminish to be sure. I'm not sure that a team can be anymore futile from a strategic perspective than we've been.

Do we own the "honors" of having the longest playoff drought in league history yet too?

Besides on Polian's watch, this organization has done nothing, absolutely nothing relevant during its time in the NFL.

[Fletch]

Because simply having football isn't enough. The team has to be successful. We are in the midst of the longest running playoff drought in the league.

This is what I mean by Bills fans accepting mediocrity. When the Bills can't compete with the league standards (in this case, winning) they simply lower the bar to merely having a team then get mad at anyone who isn't satisfied with the Bills accomplishing the new mediocre standard.

I've seen more entertaining high school football games. Really.

To me it's the quality of play as produced by the talent on the field, both players and coaching regardless of which league or level. That's horrid in Buffalo.

A good high school game is tremendously entertaining, I've seen numerous high school games in recent seasons that are far more entertaining than Bills football. Sure, the Bills float an entertaining game every now and again, like in the very rare occasions that they manage to beat the Pats or other tremendously rare games when we upset top seeded playoff teams.

Even the Cincy game this past season where we came back was entertaining despite the loss. 6-10 with 8 losses like that I would be entertained by, frustrated, but entertained nonetheless. But what, losing soundly to Cleveland due to inept play all around is entertaining? Please.

And how entertaining should a win over a team like Jacksonville be, one of the few teams that this past season was worse than we were. I mean if you're into gladiators, how much fun would it be watching some goliath pound some child to death e.g. Or one high school's varsity team beat another's JV team.

[insert the "you can only play who's on the schedule" tangential irrelevant argument]

Generally speaking, 10-12 of our games every season are highly unentertaining. When poor to fair football play is entertaining to someone, I dare say that it's more that fan than it is those that aren't entertained by it that's the issue.

[feldspar]

Well, that's what many of us do.

Unlike you, I don't view incompetence on the field as being entertaining. I viewed the Polian era as entertaining.

I'd rather watch a good generic football game between two competent teams than to watch us with our plethora of coaching miscues and blunders, eratic performances from the players due to poor coaching, lack of quality play due to lack of talent in key positions, etc.

If that's entertaining to you I'm not quite sure what to say. It isn't for me and many other die-hard Bills fans that I know. It's also wrong for you or anyone else to imply or insist that we're wrong for not being entertained by the slop that's been offered by what is now officially the NFL's most beleaguered and hapless team using playoff appearances as the standard.

It's those that are entertained by sub-par football that enables the team to keep putting out this slop successfully from a marketing perspective. If people expressed disapproval, dissatisfaction, manifested by their lack of being entertained, then the chances that something would actually change might actually increase. They wouldn't diminish to be sure. I'm not sure that a team can be anymore futile from a strategic perspective than we've been.

Do we own the "honors" of having the longest playoff drought in league history yet too?

Besides on Polian's watch, this organization has done nothing, absolutely nothing relevant during its time in the NFL.

Sounds like you got a problem.

Good luck with that.

[Fletch]

Sounds like you got a problem.

Good luck with that.

Sounds to me that the ones with the problems are those that can be entertained with and by incompetence and negligence.

As for me, problem solved, just watch another game or do something else with my time. I'm good with that.

The last thing that I'm going to be though is an enabler, giving an inept organization what it wants for perpetually failing as I continue to buy their lemons on the lot year after year.

I'm a fan, not a sucker or chump.

It would seem that the ones with the problems are the ones paying for those lemons and then left complaining about it and the loss of their money and other resources, as this forum always does come November.

Wouldn't you agree.

[better days]

Well, that's what many of us do.

Unlike you, I don't view incompetence on the field as being entertaining. I viewed the Polian era as entertaining.

I'd rather watch a good generic football game between two competent teams than to watch us with our plethora of coaching miscues and blunders, eratic performances from the players due to poor coaching, lack of quality play due to lack of talent in key positions, etc.

If that's entertaining to you I'm not quite sure what to say. It isn't for me and many other die-hard Bills fans that I know. It's also wrong for you or anyone else to imply or insist that we're wrong for not being entertained by the slop that's been offered by what is now officially the NFL's most beleaguered and hapless team using playoff appearances as the standard.

It's those that are entertained by sub-par football that enables the team to keep putting out this slop successfully from a marketing perspective. If people expressed disapproval, dissatisfaction, manifested by their lack of being entertained, then the chances that something would actually change might actually increase. They wouldn't diminish to be sure. I'm not sure that a team can be anymore futile from a strategic perspective than we've been.

Do we own the "honors" of having the longest playoff drought in league history yet too?

Besides on Polian's watch, this organization has done nothing, absolutely nothing relevant during its time in the NFL.

From a marketing perspective, the strong support the Bills have received even while going through 14 TERRIBLE years is a good reason the Bills are still in Buffalo & will remain in Buffalo.
I know some you you don't believe it but this team will improve & give us all something to cheer for.

[Night Train]

Besides on Polian's watch, this organization has done nothing, absolutely nothing relevant during its time in the NFL.

*********t. At least 3 good periods.

1. Mid 1960's AFL title game 3 years in a row - winning twice. Pre SB days.
2. Chuck Knox years 1978-83 were very good.
3. 1988-94

Could argue late 1990's . Being well into my 50's, I can remember all those era's vividly.

Once Ralph gave Tom Donahoe control, the team plunged and the inner circle of Wilson, Littman & Overdorf finally had to turn things over to junior stooge Brandon. He's banking on Whaley IDing talent and it's year 2 of supposedly new thinking. Only time will tell.

[feldspar]

Sounds to me that the ones with the problems are those that can be entertained with and by incompetence and negligence.

As for me, problem solved, just watch another game or do something else with my time. I'm good with that.

The last thing that I'm going to be though is an enabler, giving an inept organization what it wants for perpetually failing as I continue to buy their lemons on the lot year after year.

I'm a fan, not a sucker or chump.

It would seem that the ones with the problems are the ones paying for those lemons and then left complaining about it and the loss of their money and other resources, as this forum always does come November.

Wouldn't you agree.

So, the ones WITH problems are the ones that are entertained...

And the cagey ones WITHOUT problems are unhappy....

???

No, I wouldn't agree.

[Fletch]

From a marketing perspective, the strong support the Bills have received even while going through 14 TERRIBLE years is a good reason the Bills are still in Buffalo & will remain in Buffalo.
I know some you you don't believe it but this team will improve & give us all something to cheer for.

This team has sucked except for when Polian was the GM.

Since the Bills joined the NFL they've won exactly 1 playoff game, a wild-card round game, followed by a loss in the divisional round, apart from the team that Polian built.

They won their last playoff game in '95 still largely with Polian-assembled talent. Beyond that they're 0-5 in playoff play both after that and prior to Polian's arrival.

History is not on your side. The Bills may improve and give us all something to cheer for, but it's not going to be with this current front office and while Brandon is in charge or even with Marrone as the head coach or Manuel as QB. So it's going to be another few seasons at least.

The Bills have been nothing but flat out awful to mediocre with the exception of about 6/7 seasons when Polian was in charge.

[Fletch]

*********t. At least 3 good periods.

1. Mid 1960's AFL title game 3 years in a row - winning twice. Pre SB days.
2. Chuck Knox years 1978-83 were very good.
3. 1988-94

Could argue late 1990's . Being well into my 50's, I can remember all those era's vividly.

Once Ralph gave Tom Donahoe control, the team plunged and the inner circle of Wilson, Littman & Overdorf finally had to turn things over to junior stooge Brandon. He's banking on Whaley IDing talent and it's year 2 of supposedly new thinking. Only time will tell.

I said NFL, not an 8-team AFL. T

The Bills are 1-7 in the playoffs on teams not largely assembled with Polian talent. i.e., I include that '95 Wild-Card round win, our last in the playoffs, as one that Polian's team won since most of the players were acquired by him.

Other than that, they're 1-6 with one playoff win in '81. Sorry, we can't change history.

Chuck Knox was about .500 with the Bills, made the playoffs twice going 1-2 with his only win in the WC round. Good, hardly great. His other seasons were bad.

[Fletch]

So, the ones WITH problems are the ones that are entertained...

And the cagey ones WITHOUT problems are unhappy....

???

No, I wouldn't agree.

You're the one that implied that I and others that think like me have problems, I never entered it into the equation.

But as long as you'd like to argue over that, I don't know you tell me, would you purchase a product the caliber of what the Bills put out if it were some other product or service? Say telecom service? Would you be happy with the results? Or as I analogized, how about a lemon of a car, would you be happy if the used care salesman sold you on the positives of the car yet you never delivered?

I suppose you might be given your statements, and while I can't say that that's a "problem" per se, but I would say that it would suggest much about anyone that would be content with that to the extent that they would continue to go back and patronize such a business.

I guess you don't mind though, so good for you for being a better man than myself apparently. I'll leave the associated discussion about "a fool and his money" for a later time.

Point of my earlier statement however was that in doing so, you give the organization what it wants, financial support, so that they can justify their negligence and realize that there are enough people just like you that will believe in their lies and nonsense and yet keep coming back to patronize their business.

I've often said that if all we're going to get from this team is the crap play that we've gotten since Polian left, then I don't care if they move or fold now, it'll save me much heartache going forward.

Being from the region, I really don't care if we "just have a team," I want a competently run team like we had in the '90s, and at least some glimpse of it from time to time with competent hires and coaching, players, etc. We don't have that though.

As to problems, problems is what problems are. If you enjoy supporting this mediocrity, and I'm being kind since often it's not even mediocrity, then great, it's not a problem for you, just for the rest of us that don't support it because enough people do such that there need not be any changes and this crew of idiots can keep selling us with lies and deceit due to their own incompetence.

It is a problem for those of us that think like I do because as they say, consumers vote with their wallets, and as long as there are enough fools that become parted from their money as a result, we have no hope of voting with our wallets. So yes, it is a problem for us.

Having said that, that problem hurts you too despite the fact that you either cannot or alternately refuse to recognize it.

I simply don't patronize a business like that and in this case, as I said, if I want to watch competent football, there's plenty around. Why should I do something that makes me feel unhappy and frustrated after doing it, particularly on a regular basis.

[swiper]

I said NFL, not an 8-team AFL. T

The Bills are 1-7 in the playoffs on teams not largely assembled with Polian talent. i.e., I include that '95 Wild-Card round win, our last in the playoffs, as one that Polian's team won since most of the players were acquired by him.

Other than that, they're 1-6 with one playoff win in '81. Sorry, we can't change history.

Chuck Knox was about .500 with the Bills, made the playoffs twice going 1-2 with his only win in the WC round. Good, hardly great. His other seasons were bad.

This all, sadly, true.

You all love the Jim Kelly years. But, truthfully, that bunch let you down. They couldn't put it over the top. Geez, we can only dream to know what it's like to be a Giants fan or a Steelers fan or a Patriots fan.

Knox's years I, too, look back fondly on. Isiah Robertson, Villapiano, etc, etc. But his Buffalo teams were good, not great.

And those AFL championships were a long, long, long time ago. Let's talk about the last 15 years. Most every other franchise has more winning over 1970 to now. Who is to blame? RALPH WILSON. He is the worst owner in the league.

[Fletch]

This all, sadly, true.

You all love the Jim Kelly years. But, truthfully, that bunch let you down. They couldn't put it over the top. Geez, we can only dream to know what it's like to be a Giants fan or a Steelers fan or a Patriots fan.

Knox's years I, too, look back fondly on. Isiah Robertson, Villapiano, etc, etc. But his Buffalo teams were good, not great.

And those AFL championships were a long, long, long time ago. Let's talk about the last 15 years. Most every other franchise has more winning over 1970 to now. Who is to blame? RALPH WILSON. He is the worst owner in the league.

Sounds like you're too young to have enjoyed those years Swiper, you missed a helluva ride. Having said that, it was still great despite not having won one because the team had talent enough to beat anyone in the league unlike today where it's the polar opposite almost.

The NFL has changed several times. The league was pretty consistent in the '70s and '80s, then in the early-mid '90s free-agency changed it, and then over the last decade or so all the rules changes have changed the game even more. We'll never see another John Riggins type team again that dominates like that on the ground IMO. It's all about the passing game now.

Funny, Mark Cuban said that the NFL is killing itself. I agree. Oversaturation of the market and all these pussy rules changes are destroying the game. Some in the interests of safety are good, but some are just nonsense and it's gotten to the point where pretty soon the officiating crews will begin acting like a team of lawyers on game days. It's halfway there already.

Anyway, the reason why the team couldn't put it over the top in the early '90s had everything to do with Marv Levy and little to do with the talent he had. We were a better team than the Cowboys in the 4th SB and a better team than the Giants too, yet we lost both games. Switch coaches and we have two wins, maybe even three.

That's my one knock on Polian, he could have hired a better coach. Levy w/o Polian was a .500 coach as his record with Polian gone suggests.

But you're right, the problem is Wilson, who's lied to all of us now by trying to pass off the notion that he's done all that he can do to keep the team in Buffalo after his death. I have no respect for him as a result just as I have no respect for anyone that lies to me. He's nothing better than a politician.

Nothing will change until he sees the other side of the grass.

[Goobylal]

Sounds like you're too young to have enjoyed those years Swiper, you missed a helluva ride. Having said that, it was still great despite not having won one because the team had talent enough to beat anyone in the league unlike today where it's the polar opposite almost.

The NFL has changed several times. The league was pretty consistent in the '70s and '80s, then in the early-mid '90s free-agency changed it, and then over the last decade or so all the rules changes have changed the game even more. We'll never see another John Riggins type team again that dominates like that on the ground IMO. It's all about the passing game now.

Funny, Mark Cuban said that the NFL is killing itself. I agree. Oversaturation of the market and all these pussy rules changes are destroying the game. Some in the interests of safety are good, but some are just nonsense and it's gotten to the point where pretty soon the officiating crews will begin acting like a team of lawyers on game days. It's halfway there already.

Anyway, the reason why the team couldn't put it over the top in the early '90s had everything to do with Marv Levy and little to do with the talent he had. We were a better team than the Cowboys in the 4th SB and a better team than the Giants too, yet we lost both games. Switch coaches and we have two wins, maybe even three.

That's my one knock on Polian, he could have hired a better coach. Levy w/o Polian was a .500 coach as his record with Polian gone suggests.

But you're right, the problem is Wilson, who's lied to all of us now by trying to pass off the notion that he's done all that he can do to keep the team in Buffalo after his death. I have no respect for him as a result just as I have no respect for anyone that lies to me. He's nothing better than a politician.

Nothing will change until he sees the other side of the grass.
Are you a Sabres fan? Because adding a billionaire owner who says all the right things and spends money like a drunken sailor doesn't ensure anything. And you should respect Ralph for keeping the team in Buffalo all these years, when he could have pulled up stakes for greener pastures. And whether the teams stays in Buffalo after his death really isn't in his hands. If there is a group willing to pay the money and keep it there, they'll get it. But ultimately the group will want a return on their investment.

[feldspar]

You're the one that implied that I and others that think like me have problems, I never entered it into the equation.

But as long as you'd like to argue over that, I don't know you tell me, would you purchase a product the caliber of what the Bills put out if it were some other product or service? Say telecom service? Would you be happy with the results? Or as I analogized, how about a lemon of a car, would you be happy if the used care salesman sold you on the positives of the car yet you never delivered?

I suppose you might be given your statements, and while I can't say that that's a "problem" per se, but I would say that it would suggest much about anyone that would be content with that to the extent that they would continue to go back and patronize such a business.

I guess you don't mind though, so good for you for being a better man than myself apparently. I'll leave the associated discussion about "a fool and his money" for a later time.

Point of my earlier statement however was that in doing so, you give the organization what it wants, financial support, so that they can justify their negligence and realize that there are enough people just like you that will believe in their lies and nonsense and yet keep coming back to patronize their business.

I've often said that if all we're going to get from this team is the crap play that we've gotten since Polian left, then I don't care if they move or fold now, it'll save me much heartache going forward.

Being from the region, I really don't care if we "just have a team," I want a competently run team like we had in the '90s, and at least some glimpse of it from time to time with competent hires and coaching, players, etc. We don't have that though.

As to problems, problems is what problems are. If you enjoy supporting this mediocrity, and I'm being kind since often it's not even mediocrity, then great, it's not a problem for you, just for the rest of us that don't support it because enough people do such that there need not be any changes and this crew of idiots can keep selling us with lies and deceit due to their own incompetence.

It is a problem for those of us that think like I do because as they say, consumers vote with their wallets, and as long as there are enough fools that become parted from their money as a result, we have no hope of voting with our wallets. So yes, it is a problem for us.

Having said that, that problem hurts you too despite the fact that you either cannot or alternately refuse to recognize it.

I simply don't patronize a business like that and in this case, as I said, if I want to watch competent football, there's plenty around. Why should I do something that makes me feel unhappy and frustrated after doing it, particularly on a regular basis.

Whatever.

Just because I'm mostly able to have a good time even when the Bills lose doesn't mean that I don't want them to win. My life is still what it is no matter what the Bills do.

And, like I alluded to before, I wouldn't tune in if I viewed the Bills mainly as some sort of problem in my life. Why would anybody do that?