How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

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  • Fletch
    Registered User
    • May 2007
    • 3166

    How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

    For non-football fans: this is when NFL teams select college football players to add to their rosters, the new players awkwardly hold up jerseys with the number one on them, and football fans everywhere freak out. The worst teams are given the highest picks, and if they want to improve, they need to use them as shrewdly as possible.

    [more at link]

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    The Bills are one of these teams.

    Some excerpts:

    Draft picks can be traded, and the success of any one player picked is highly uncertain. Because of that, their data says that in the current trade market, teams are always better off trading down — that is, trading one high pick for multiple lower ones — but many teams become overconfident in their evaluation of one particular player and do the exact opposite: package several low picks for the right to take one player very early.

    -

    He and Thaler figured this out by calculating the odds that the first player picked at any given position will perform better — in terms of the number of games he starts in his first five seasons — than the second player drafted at that position. This is relevant because a team will often trade up when they identify a player they prefer at a needed position: they need a wide receiver, and a few highly-rated ones are available, but they trade up because they're certain one is much better.


    But the data says that teams just aren't very good at figuring out when this is true. On average, the chance that first player will start more games than the second one picked at his position: 52 percent. Compared to the third, it's still only 55 percent, and compared to the fourth, it's merely 56 percent.


    These numbers suggest that moving up eight picks (the average distance between the first and second players at the same position) should cost a small amount, since you're only increasing the odds of a getting a more productive player by four percent or so. But as the steep curve shows, teams pay a ton to move up, especially at the top of the draft.


    "It's basically a coin flip," Massey says, "but teams are paying a great deal for the right to call which side of the coin."

    -

    There's also the fact that the sports world as a whole tends to glamorize superstars — leading many to disproportionately attribute a 53-player roster's success to one or two highly drafted players. For a struggling GM, it might seem much easier to trade up and land a guaranteed superstar than patiently fill a roster with competent players.
    http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/sho...s-haters/page3

    Post #46

    Originally posted by Yasgur's Farm
    (Moderator) My name's Max Yasgur, and I approve of this post.
    Originally Posted by pmoon6
    The idea that you "won't settle" presumes that you have some kind of control. Delusional thinking at best for a supposed fan of a spectators' sport. Your way to deal with it is to constantly ***** and denigrate any move, any result concerning the team even if it's positive because you don't want your whittle feewings hurt again. It's a protection mechanism.

    You shroud your childish approach in a vale of pompous, intellectual garbage in an attempt to look smart and "real". You over-analyze even minute points and manipulate statistics to fit your negative view of the team. Again, to feel good about yourself and to protect from getting hurt.

    Of course, the criticisms are obviously from someone who has no understanding of the team concept or what it takes to excel at athletics.

    The true "realist" understands that they have no control of what happens on the field or behind the closed doors at One Bills' Drive, so they do the prudent thing for a spectator. They enjoy the games on Sunday with family and friends, cheer for their team and realize that it's just entertainment.
    ------

    "I was an integral part in the drafting process of EJ Manuel," Whaley said Thursday on NFL Network's Total Access. "I was the person that handled the draft process and setting up the board."

    "We are committed. I want you to believe me when I say that," Whaley said of building around the second-year quarterback, per The Buffalo News. "I always tell you guys that I'll never say never because I don't want to paint myself in a corner, but when I do say something, I do it and I mean it and I try to fulfill it."

    "We believe the addition of Sammy is going to be instant impact, not only to our quarterback, but to what our offensive coordinator can come up with game-plan wise and how defenses attack us," Whaley said.

    Whaley on EJ Manuel: "We think we got a gem in this guy." (2:30)

    "And as Mark says, if in three years maybe he's not [our quarterback of the future], then I'll be sitting there saying 'hey guys', .... anybody got a job for me?" - Doug Whaley

  • YardRat
    Well, lookie here...
    • Dec 2004
    • 86278

    #2
    Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

    Every team is one of 'those' teams, at times. Regardless of whether or not I agree with the move to get Watkins specifically, I don't think the 2014 trade up in any way yet nullifies the trade down in 2013. Qualifying the Bills as one of 'those' teams would indicate the presence of a definitive pattern, and I don't think the Bills have been active enough in that manner to establish one, any more than any other team in the league.

    There are several examples from history to cite, to support both sides, but the bottom line is how a chosen player eventually produces will determine if the move was 'right' or 'wrong'.

    Pretty sure the 49ers (Rice) or Steelers (Ben) aren't perceived as making 'irrational' moves to go up and get those guys.

    People ***** because for the last fourteen seasons the team hasn't gone out and gotten playmakers, and then when they attempt to, people ***** anyways.
    YardRat Wall of Fame
    #56 DARRYL TALLEY
    #29 DERRICK BURROUGHS#22 FRED JACKSON #95 KYLE WILLIAMS

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    • IlluminatusUIUC
      Registered User
      • Sep 2012
      • 8966

      #3
      Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

      I respect the attempt to look at the economics of the draft, but they need a much better metric for player performance then "games started in the first five years." A player can get a lot of starts simply because a team doesn't have anyone else to put out there or because a coach is trying to justify a draft position, but it doesn't guarantee the player is out there playing well. To name one example, Chris Kelsay came off the board before Osi Umenyiora (I know, I know). Kelsay amassed 56 starts in his first five years, while Osi had 51. By their metric, Kelsay was the better pick. But of course Osi was a two time pro bowler in that span and amassed more sacks than Kelsay would in his entire career.

      It also assumes a bit of determinism in ignoring that players may fail or succeed because of what teams draft them. A player that goes at the top of the draft to a dumpster fire franchise who changes coaches every two seasons may fail as a result of that, while another player who falls to the later picks to a team that is stable and consistent may likewise succeed. It's not to say that the latter team is smarter for waiting for the second player to fall into their lap, they are smarter because they know how to develop talent. It's the classic question. If Aaron Rodgers was indeed drafted into the San Francisco circus and Alex Smith allowed to sit behind a legend for years in Green Bay, do they still have the same careers?


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      • Topas
        German smartass
        • Feb 2014
        • 880

        #4
        Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

        UIUC, you beat me two. Exactly these two issues I wanted to mention.
        +1. What you said.

        I think it is tough to actually evaluate a player. So we might never find an answer to this question.
        But considering that New England seems to always trade down I am not sure that really worked out for them. They suck at drafting. They win because of Brady and Bellicheck.

        Comment

        • Bill Cody
          Registered User
          • Sep 2004
          • 11915

          #5
          Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

          If Watkins is a great player, not just good then it's all good. If he's not it's a pretty catastrophic mistake. Generally speaking moving up in the draft is a bad idea. But that doesn't mean it was this time. And besides that, Buffalo's problem in the past decade plus with the draft hasn't been that we've overpaid for stars, it's that we pick more busts than they have in Canton.

          And despite the stats about trading up vs down the Patriots have spent a lot of time trading down in the past few years and most of those "value" moves have failed so nothing is absolute.

          Bottom line: the Bills felt they needed a jolt after a long period of suckitude and they made a bold move. The results are TBD.

          Comment

          • Albany,n.y.
            Registered User
            • Jul 2002
            • 5599

            #6
            Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

            The author lost all credibility when the poster boy for a trade down was Philip Rivers. Rivers 0 Super Bowl Championships, E. Manning 2.
            His use of the latest SB winner, Seattle was also weak.
            Here's the headline for a better article that has a lot less statistical garbage & would be a lot more accurate:
            NFL Teams that get lucky and draft good or franchise quarterbacks win more games than teams that draft quarterbacks who are mediocre or are busts.
            It's pretty simple. Baltimore traded up for Joe Flacco and won a Super Bowl. Buffalo traded up and drafted J.P. Losman.

            Comment

            • better days
              Registered User
              • Jan 2010
              • 22028

              #7
              Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

              Originally posted by Albany,n.y. View Post
              The author lost all credibility when the poster boy for a trade down was Philip Rivers. Rivers 0 Super Bowl Championships, E. Manning 2.
              His use of the latest SB winner, Seattle was also weak.
              Here's the headline for a better article that has a lot less statistical garbage & would be a lot more accurate:
              NFL Teams that get lucky and draft good or franchise quarterbacks win more games than teams that draft quarterbacks who are mediocre or are busts.
              It's pretty simple. Baltimore traded up for Joe Flacco and won a Super Bowl. Buffalo traded up and drafted J.P. Losman.
              I wonder how JP would have fared if he were drafted by the Packers instead of the Bills.

              JP had a similar skill set to Favre. With time to sit & learn under Favre & better Coaching who knows? JP could have had a better career.

              Comment

              • Bill Cody
                Registered User
                • Sep 2004
                • 11915

                #8
                Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                Originally posted by better days View Post
                I wonder how JP would have fared if he were drafted by the Packers instead of the Bills.

                JP had a similar skill set to Favre. With time to sit & learn under Favre & better Coaching who knows? JP could have had a better career.
                Nah. Ask Aaron Rodgers how much help he got from Brett Favre. Favre looked at Rodgers not as a teammate but a threat to his job and he ignored him. JP was an all star from the neck down, that wasn't going to change no matter where he went. Add to that, some QB's are born leaders and they get their guys to run through brick walls for them, JP couldn't get the Bills to run through tissue paper.

                Comment

                • IlluminatusUIUC
                  Registered User
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 8966

                  #9
                  Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                  Originally posted by Bill Cody View Post
                  Nah. Ask Aaron Rodgers how much help he got from Brett Favre. Favre looked at Rodgers not as a teammate but a threat to his job and he ignored him. JP was an all star from the neck down, that wasn't going to change no matter where he went. Add to that, some QB's are born leaders and they get their guys to run through brick walls for them, JP couldn't get the Bills to run through tissue paper.
                  I certainly won't say that he'd turn out like Aaron Rodgers, but Losman was a bomb-and-scramble kind of guy and Mularkey and Jauron tried to convert him to a dink-and-dunk west coast passer. It was just completely against his instincts and you could see him flustered by the reads. I think if Losman had been developed as a rollout guy like Jay Cutler initially was, he might have had a better result.


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                  • trapezeus
                    Legendary Zoner
                    • Oct 2004
                    • 19525

                    #10
                    Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                    losman never won the lockerroom either. the thing about being athletic and giving you a chance, the team needs to buy in.

                    Losman fumbled his first snap in a national game. he never recovered.

                    don't defend losman. nice guy, bad qb.

                    Comment

                    • Bill Cody
                      Registered User
                      • Sep 2004
                      • 11915

                      #11
                      Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                      Originally posted by Albany,n.y. View Post
                      The author lost all credibility when the poster boy for a trade down was Philip Rivers. Rivers 0 Super Bowl Championships, E. Manning 2.
                      His use of the latest SB winner, Seattle was also weak.
                      Here's the headline for a better article that has a lot less statistical garbage & would be a lot more accurate:
                      NFL Teams that get lucky and draft good or franchise quarterbacks win more games than teams that draft quarterbacks who are mediocre or are busts.
                      It's pretty simple. Baltimore traded up for Joe Flacco and won a Super Bowl. Buffalo traded up and drafted J.P. Losman.
                      Personally if I were a GM I'd limit a significant cost for a trade up to a QB because the position is so crucial. That's the reason I'm on the fence on the Watkins move, receivers are important but not like a QB so giving up that 1st kind of stings.

                      Comment

                      • Homegrown
                        Havin' a ball ... rollin' to the bottom
                        • Jul 2008
                        • 2774

                        #12
                        Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                        How about get rid of the draft?... It's a socialist concept, totally un-american.

                        Let teams employ who they want, for what willing to pay for player

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        How about get rid of the draft?... It's a socialist concept, totally un-american.

                        Let teams employ who they want, for what willing to pay for player

                        Comment

                        • IlluminatusUIUC
                          Registered User
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 8966

                          #13
                          Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                          Originally posted by Homegrown View Post
                          How about get rid of the draft?... It's a socialist concept, totally un-american.

                          Let teams employ who they want, for what willing to pay for player
                          I've heard that idea suggested before and it makes some sense. The draft was created in the time before salary caps. Just let all incoming rookies dump onto the free agent pool at the same time and go nuts. Wouldn't it be more interesting if every team had a shot at Andrew Luck?


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                          • Bill Cody
                            Registered User
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 11915

                            #14
                            Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                            Originally posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
                            I certainly won't say that he'd turn out like Aaron Rodgers, but Losman was a bomb-and-scramble kind of guy and Mularkey and Jauron tried to convert him to a dink-and-dunk west coast passer. It was just completely against his instincts and you could see him flustered by the reads. I think if Losman had been developed as a rollout guy like Jay Cutler initially was, he might have had a better result.
                            the NFL is always looking for QB talent. When JP finished here no one wanted him even though he was still young. If anyone agreed with you they would have signed him and tried to coach him up. QB's need to make reads in any system, JP was just slow. His instinct was to hold the ball, not feel the rush, get creamed and fumble.

                            Comment

                            • IlluminatusUIUC
                              Registered User
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 8966

                              #15
                              Re: How NFL teams ignore basic economics and draft players irrationally

                              Originally posted by Bill Cody View Post
                              the NFL is always looking for QB talent. When JP finished here no one wanted him even though he was still young. If anyone agreed with you they would have signed him and tried to coach him up. QB's need to make reads in any system, JP was just slow. His instinct was to hold the ball, not feel the rush, get creamed and fumble.
                              They did. He played for two other NFL franchises after he left Buffalo. But by that point he was already 28 and both teams already had younger QBs they were trying to develop. His ship had sailed.


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