Why did we lose our 8 games last season?

[WG]

With all the bashing of myself in standing up for the defense last season, I decided to detail for all of those who can't seem to face reality the basics in why we lost all of our 8 games last season.

Partyline is that our D played poorly thus overcoming tremendous offensive efforts by the offense. Drew has been praised for "having to do everything" as well. Did he? So let's see if all that is true, shall we! Let's proceed:

The first game we lost was the very first Jet game which went to O/T.

Perception: D and STs lost the game for us.

Reality:

The defense allowed only 266 total net yards!
Each team had one lost fumble.
The Bills had 2 INTs to the Jets 0.
STs allowed 1 TD in regulation.
Drew's INT set the Jets up at the Bills 19 YL for their 2nd TD on the very next drive!
In O/T, the Bills STs allowed a TD.

Reason for the loss?

Defense: Hardly!
STs: Partly
Offense: Drew's INT setting up a Jet TD at our own 19!

If either the STs regulation TD or Drew's INT don't happen, then the Bills win in O/T. Both share responsibility equally!

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20020908_NYJ@BUF


In the second loss:

D held Bronco O to 342 total. Portis had just over 100.
Henry fumbled to cost us a win!
Bledsoe played very well.


In the third loss:

Perception: D lost the game for us.

Reality:

Both teams played similarly.
Raiders D allowed 479 total net yards, Bills allowed 495 TNY
Bills held Raiders to 50% 3rd down efficiency, Bills were 47%.
Bills ran 18 times to the Raiders 27, Bills averaged 4.4 YPC
Bills passed 53 times to the Raiders 38 times
Neither team had lost fumbles
Bills had 3 INTs and 5 sacks, Raiders had 0 INTs and 1 sack
Leading by 3, Drew set up a Raider TD w/ an INT giving them the ball at the Bills 32 YL w/ ~ 8 min. to go in the 3rd Q.
Trailing by only 4 points w/ over 8 minutes to go in the game, Drew tosses an INT to Buchanon, the rookie CB, who returns it for a TD. Raiders up by 11.
On the very next drive, Drew gets sacked on 1st and 2nd down losing 12 yards and then throws incomplete on 3rd down forcing a punt.
On the very next drive, Drew tosses an INT on 2nd-and-7 at the Raider 7 YL to ice the game!

Reasons for the loss:

Defense: Played not well, but as well as the Raider D played.
STs: Played OK
Offense: The difference in the game was 3 Drew INTs 2 of which gave the Raiders 14 points on a short field, the third cost the Bills 7 points for a 21 point swing; the only TOs of the game and 5 sacks.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20021006_OAK@BUF


In the fourth loss:

A poor game v. N.E. from top to bottom.
Drew played poorly.
D played poorly
STs played poorly
Coaching SUCKED!!! Major reason for the loss IMO.


In the fifth loss:

The Bills D held the K.C. O, the #1 offense in the league, in K.C., to only 320 yards total offense.
D held Priest Holmes to only 104 rushing yards on a 3.4 YPC avg.
D held K.C. O to only 36% 3rd-down-efficiency.
Henry had 126 yards on 5.3 YPC
STs played well; avg. starting FP for K.C. at their own 25
The lone TO in the game was the difference here!!!
W/ 4:26 remaining, and trailing by only a single point, On 2nd-and-10 from the K.C. 40 YL, Drew throws an INT to end the game!

Reason for the loss:

Just like Henry's fumble in the Denver game cost us that game, Drew's single INT cost us this!!! Completely unnessecary BTW!

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20021117_BUF@KC

In the sixth loss:

Bills held the Jets to 325 total net yards and 7/14, 50% 3rd-down-efficiency.
STs and 2 Drew INTs gave the Jets great field position all game.
Tied at 3, on 1st-and-10, Drew tosses an INT to set the Jets up at the 50 for their first TD putting them up by 7.
Down by that 7, Drew tosses a second INT on the very next drive to set the Jets up for their 2nd TD near midfield at the Jet 42.
On the very next drive, Drew goes 1 for 4 to force a punt.
Other than the 14 points set up by Drew, the D allows only 17 others.
The O only puts up 13 points on the game.
Henry has one fumble, but the only result is an 11 yard change in field position as the Bills get the ball right back.
Only 3 TOs in that game, 2 are Drew's leading to 14 Jet points.
In spite of averaging 4.9 YPC and having had ~ 150 yards v. the Jets in the first game, Henry only gets 17 carries to Drew's 33 passing attempts.
Drew has a 52.7 rating for the game.

Reasons for the loss:

D: played well enough to win easily.
STs: allowed Jets very good field position
Henry: played better than we should expect, wasn't used much.
Drew: Also a factor in Jets great field position, his 2 INTs leading to 14 Jet points the largest factor in the loss.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20021124_BUF@NYJ


In the 7th loss:

In foxborough, the Bills D held the Pat O to only 175 yards of total net offense!
STs played OK w/ avg. starting FP for the Pats at the Pat 28 YL on non-TO related drives.
Avg. Starting FP for the Pats off of 5 Bills TOs was the Bills 36 YL!!!
17 of the Pats' 27 points came off of Bills TOs, 2 Drew INTs + 1 Price FUM, giving the Pats an avg. starting FP on those 3 TOs at the Bills' 19 YL!!!
Bills' D held the Pats to only 36%, 4 of 11 3rd-down-eff.
Bills' D held the Pats to only 3.4 YPC and less than 100 yards rushing!
Bills had 5 TOs; Drew 4, Price 1; Pats had 0!!!

Reasons for the loss:

D: Played well enough to win!
STs: Played well enough to win!
O: Bledsoe INTs set up 10 Pat points, Price's FUM set up another 7; 4 Bledsoe INTs gave the Pats avg. starting FP at our 28 YL on 4 drives!

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20021208_BUF@NE


In the 8th loss:

D held the Pack to 33% 3rd-down-eff. 5 of 15
D held the Pack to 223 total net yards
On the Bills' 1st drive of the game, Drew tosses an INT on 3rd-and-4 at the Packer 4 YL to cost us 7.
W/ 9 minutes remaining trailing by 3-0, Drew fumbles on 3rd-and-14 setting the Packers up at the Bills' 39 YL for their sole TD of the game!
On 2nd-and-10 inside the Packer red zone at the Pack 17 YL, Drew fumbles again w/ ~ 1:20 left in the game to cost the Bills a chance at the win.

Reasons for the loss:

D: Played well enough to win!
STs: Played well enough to win; Avg. starting FP at the Pack 28 on non-TO drives. Played as well as Pack STs, perhaps better.
O: Drew's 2 INTs costing the Bills 10-14 points and setting up a Pack TD for a 17-21 point swing in a 10-0 game was the reason for the loss!

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20021222_BUF@GB


So as you can plainly see, and don't believe me by all means, go verify all that for yourself, but as you can plainly see, Drew was almost singlehandedly instrumental in the Bills losing 4-5 games last season!!!

In fact, the Bills also beat S.D. and Miami in the first Fin game in spite of Drew's total inability to lead the team to more than 20 and 16 points, largely b/c of Henry in the S.D. game.

Those are the facts. Funny how different they are from the perceptions, eh!

:rolleyes:

[BillsFever]

Good article, Wys :up:

[WG]

:scared:

Thanks.....

You OK?

:lol!:

[BillsFever]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
:scared:

Thanks.....

You OK?

:lol!:

Yeah, :lol:

I'm sure you're not used to many people agreeing with you, but I'm not a Drew Bledsoe buttkisser like others.

If I only had a dollar for evertime I swore at him the last 8 games of the year...

He was miserable and I don't know how so many people can try to make excuses for him. Not everybody wears rose colored glasses I guess.

He might've been the best available QB we could've had at the time, but it doesn't mean you have ignore all the flaws during the end of the season.

[BillsFever]

If Drew Bledsoe would've played average football the last 8 games of the year we would've been in the playoffs. Maybe even a little below average would've gotten us in. He played well below average though.

I know Wys will know this. How many TO's did he have in the last 8 games? I'd say about 17+/- off the top of my head.

[WG]

No, it wasn't that many. In the last 8 he had 10 INTs and 4 lost fumbles.

It was really the last 10 games that he started playing like one of the worst QBs in the league even though he had no more TOs those two prior games. I mean we averaged only 18.5 PPG over the last 10! What else needs to be said. After that 38-21 shellacking of the Fins, we only averaged 16.5 over the other 9 games. One of those games was the first Fin game where the D put up 7 as well. That drops the offensive scoring average into the 15s for those 9 games!

That's horrible!!! Only two teams in the league averaged less than 16 PPG, Dallas and Houston. Our offense was so much better than theirs that it's silly! So for us to have played to such a level for over half the season is pathetic! I blame Gilbride as much as I blame Drew.

Where he had major league issues was in playing the good/best teams.

He tossed all 15 of his INTs and added 3 lost fumbles in the games vs.:

N.E. (8-8) twice
Jets (9-7) twice
G.B. (12-4)
K.C. (8-8)
Oakland (11-5)

They represented 18 of the team's 22 TOs in those games. It's impossible for any objective person to ignore.

I fully agree, we didn't need much from him last season to make the playoffs, just not to give 3 or 4 games away as indicated above. I mean think about it, if we win the K.C. game and any other game that he was horrendous in, then we win the division.

But what has galled me for quite some time is this notion that the D sucked all season long. It's simply not true. And when you consider the complete lack of talent in the front 7, I think it's pretty amazing how well we did do and how we did improve as the year went on. Think about it, we started Robinson, a platoon at one DT, Ahanotu at DE and only two LBs for the most part!

Oh well, like I said, I don't think there's any doubt that this is all gonna become much more clear this season as well.

[SABURZFAN]

don't encourage him BF.

[WG]

I can't wait to check out this thread in a few hours...

Talk about Zonebucks...

:evil:

[ryven]

Answer me this why did we win 5 more than the season before im we were alot better off with drew than johnson but you will probably disagree with me so I guess we should just sign johnson back and then we can go to the big dance. What are you thinking bledsoe is part of the reason we went 8-8 if we had johnson he would have found some way to screw it up.

[justasportsfan]

Why did we have the most potent O during the start of the season? Why was Drew considered the MVP of the firt half? Why did Drew break a lot of franchise records? Keep harping on the negatives and forgetting completely about the positive side.

Sure the D picked up towards the end of the season. Just like the year before. Drew scored enough points to beat the jets in the first game. Just like someone said, he also scored enough points to have beaten the raiders if only the D did their part. If the D did their job in just those 2 games WE WOULD"VE MADE THE PLAYOFFS!!!So get over it, Drew has made his mistakes and so has the D.

BTW, it's easy to keep your opponents to just 10 points if Lucas keeps giving the ball to your D. Don't give the D too much credit for that game wys and then blast Drew and if in case you didn't notice, we won that game.Don't know what you're complaining about. I'm not sure if you were at that game but I was there live. :snicker:


Give it up wys. Rob Johnson isn't coming back. I'm not signing your petition.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Oh no, not another Wys' Drew-bashing thread.

I should've NEVER clicked on this thread, like I usually don't.

:rolleyes:

With a QB of Drew Bledsoe's caliber at the helm, Wys' already tearing him apart. Imagine what you'd say about Jay Fiedler? You're lucky you're not a Dolphins fan. :laughter:

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
You're lucky you're not a Dolphins fan. :laughter:

You sure about that?:finfan:

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Sorry to shoot down that long post but one or two plays don't lose games nor does one player. Sure there are contributing factors that go into each and every game. It is as easy to lay the blame on Drew because he is the quarterback, but you can just as easy lay blame to Travis Henry for fumbling, the wide receivers not running the right routes, or the offensive line not protecting for the extra couple of seconds. You can say the defensive line could have played better, the cornerbacks could have gotten an extra pick, or special teams could have held the opposing team to worse field position. I have to say that if you blame a loss on one guy or one play, then you have never played the game of football. It is a team loss and a team win.

[LtBillsFan66]

NEWSFLASH!!!!

THIS JUST IN!!!! DREW BLEDSOE WAS THE ONLY QB IN THE LEAGUE TO THROW AN INTERCEPTION!

now back to our regularly scheduled Bledsoe bashing.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
Sorry to shoot down that long post but one or two plays don't lose games. Sure there are contributing factors that go into each and every game. It is as easy to lay the blame on Drew because he is the quarterback, but you can just as easy lay blame to Travis Henry for fumbling, the wide receivers not running the right routes, or the offensive line not protecting for the extra couple of seconds. I have to say that if you blame a loss on one guy or one play, then you have never played the game of football. It is a team loss and a team win.

Brilliant post.

Some people just don't understand the game enough...

[Ð]

Why did we lose 8 games last year ?

Why is the sky blue ?

Why do those little things at the end of your shoelaces that keep them from fraying break off after @ a year & 1/2.

These, and many other anal-retentive questions can be answered ad nauseum at Billsfanzone. Type in "wys guy" or "i want to string drew bledsoe up " under search.

[LtBillsFan66]

:rofl:

I typed in "simple reason for complex problem" and I came up with "Blame Bledsoe."

[colin]

I have Wys on ignore and I can still tell this is a terrible thread.

[Buckets]

WYS time to give it a rest. Anyone who actually saw those games could see who was inept. The O wasn't great but the D stunk. When our St's are on the field to stop their ST's I consider them D.

:violin:

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
Answer me this why did we win 5 more than the season before im we were alot better off with drew than johnson but you will probably disagree with me so I guess we should just sign johnson back and then we can go to the big dance. What are you thinking bledsoe is part of the reason we went 8-8 if we had johnson he would have found some way to screw it up.

First of all, you have to look at each game individually which is something that you Bledsoe lovers refuse to do b/c it sheds light on exactly that![/b]

E.g.:

Why did we beat Miami in game 1? Was it on the strength of 16 offensive points?

How about why we beat S.D.? Did Drew do anything [i]but[/b] sh** the bed in that game?

How about We beat the same caliber teams the year prior!

No, how much of it has to do w/ an OL of Jennings, Brown, Teague, Sullivan, and Williams over a patchwork OL of Fina, Brown, Conaty, Hulsey, Ostroski, Hollenbeck, Farris, etc.

How well do you think Drew would have played behind the line that started that season?

Fina, Brown, Conaty, Hulsey, and Jennings as a rookie? Farris even got some playing time! Do you think Drew wouldn't have given up 80 or more sacks? Do you [i]really believe that he'd have had over 4,000 yards?

Come on! That's ridiculous and you know it ryven! See, this is the problem here, you and everyone else just keep throwin' up sh** on the wall over, and over, and over again hoping to cover up the mural w/ something. Too bad what you're throwin' up you see as art.

[Mr. Miyagi]

It's a con for zonebucks, that's all.

[WG]

Originally posted by justasportsfan
Why did we have the most potent O during the start of the season? Why was Drew considered the MVP of the firt half? Why did Drew break a lot of franchise records? Keep harping on the negatives and forgetting completely about the positive side.

Sure the D picked up towards the end of the season. Just like the year before. Drew scored enough points to beat the jets in the first game. Just like someone said, he also scored enough points to have beaten the raiders if only the D did their part. If the D did their job in just those 2 games WE WOULD"VE MADE THE PLAYOFFS!!!So get over it, Drew has made his mistakes and so has the D.

BTW, it's easy to keep your opponents to just 10 points if Lucas keeps giving the ball to your D. Don't give the D too much credit for that game wys and then blast Drew and if in case you didn't notice, we won that game.Don't know what you're complaining about. I'm not sure if you were at that game but I was there live. :snicker:


Give it up wys. Rob Johnson isn't coming back. I'm not signing your petition.

Oh, NOW we're talking about Lucas!!! I see. But 16 offensive points is usually way more than enough to win games is it? Not that Henry's 132 rushing or the D's performance and TD "were the reason we won?" Right? No, it has to be one of the 5 additional games that we won only b/c Drew was here!

Uhhuh!

Why did we have almost the least potent O during the last 2/3 or 10 games of the season?

Why wasn't Drew considered the LVP during the last half w/ only 8 TDs, 10 INTs, and 4 lost FUMs for 8 TDs/14 TOs "leading" the Bills to 3-5? 5 TDs to 14 TOs in the last 7 after that Miami game! Boy, BIG contributions to wins there w/ three times as many TOs as TDs! Huh?

Wanna name some of those records? Are those your criteria for how good a QB is? I think if you're gonna tout that, then they should be!

How many of them were scoring or efficiency related?

How much of those records were predicated on performances in the first 6 games all v. teams w/ 18th or worse, often much worse, ranked passing Ds?

Touche` my friend!

[WG]

Originally posted by Buckets
WYS time to give it a rest. Anyone who actually saw those games could see who was inept. The O wasn't great but the D stunk. When our St's are on the field to stop their ST's I consider them D.

:violin:

Unbelieveable!

No! The O stunk, the D was actually pretty good!

If the D holds teams to 19.3 PPG this season, we should be 12-4 and we should all be very happy.

On the other hand, if the O puts up only 18.5 PPG this season, all sorts of players and coaches are gonna get fired and/or demoted!

[Stewie]

Wys dude you are the most self serving person I have ever had the misfortune of 'meeting' online or otherwise.

The only facts you report are the stats, nothing else you purport to be truth is a fact, it is merely your perception.

To say that 3 plays decide a football game is to blatantly advertise your limited knowledge about the game.

Furthermore, :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse

[WG]

Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
Sorry to shoot down that long post but one or two plays don't lose games nor does one player. Sure there are contributing factors that go into each and every game. It is as easy to lay the blame on Drew because he is the quarterback, but you can just as easy lay blame to Travis Henry for fumbling, the wide receivers not running the right routes, or the offensive line not protecting for the extra couple of seconds. You can say the defensive line could have played better, the cornerbacks could have gotten an extra pick, or special teams could have held the opposing team to worse field position. I have to say that if you blame a loss on one guy or one play, then you have never played the game of football. It is a team loss and a team win.

They don't!

Why did we lose the K.C. game there Ghost!

See, you guys won't answer direct questions since they prove the folly of statements like this!

So plays where the other team scores directly off of, such as INTs returned for TDs, and other INTs setting opponents up in or near our red zone don't matter more than the average play from scrimmage then apparently!

See, on any other team in the NFL, 18 TOs in 7 losses would create incontrovertable criticism of the player committing those TOs. Not here though. Drew gets a pass even though in most of those losses the rest of the team did what it was supposed to do.

Did you and everyone else actually read the "reasons" for the losses at the top of this thread? B/c I don't think you did.

If you did, then instead of dismissing single plays that caused us to lose games, how about finding where the "other aspects of the team" played as poorly as you say. But NOOOO, you can't do that, can ya!

I'm arguing w/ a bunch of rocks here. If that were RJ last year he'd be the worst QB ever again. But simply b/c it's Drew, he's beyond criticism!

I'm tellin' ya now, so get ready for it, Drew ain't gonna play much better this year than he did over the last 10. Sure, he'll have his day against Houston, Cincy, Jax and maybe another team or two, but it ain't gonna be pretty v. the rest of the schedule. And to think that Miami is a gimme when they are at full strength is wrong. They may very well be our most formidable foe this season.

[WG]

Originally posted by billsfanone
NEWSFLASH!!!!

THIS JUST IN!!!! DREW BLEDSOE WAS THE ONLY QB IN THE LEAGUE TO THROW AN INTERCEPTION!

now back to our regularly scheduled Bledsoe bashing.

How much real cash would you like to bet that he was the only one that A. had 18 personal TOs in 7 losses and B. couldn't beat a single team better than .500 and then only while they had 75% of their starting O out?

How much?

Please, oh please, tell me how much???

[WG]

As well, how many led their teams to less than 19 PPG over the last 10 games of the season?

What?

1? 2? 3 maybe?

[Stewie]

How many teams had fewer turnovers than Buffalo, constantly putting our offense on a long field? 2? 3?

How many QB's had to put up with Kevin Gilbride calling the wrong play at the wrong time?

[WG]

Originally posted by paulB
Wys dude you are the most self serving person I have ever had the misfortune of 'meeting' online or otherwise.

The only facts you report are the stats, nothing else you purport to be truth is a fact, it is merely your perception.

To say that 3 plays decide a football game is to blatantly advertise your limited knowledge about the game.

ROFLMAO

Can you please point out for me some stats that others have used to support the arguments that are against what I've laid out?

What if those three plays are all INTs, one for a TD, and two others ending our own scoring drives?

What if that one single play is an INT as we are approaching the opponents red zone w/ 4 minutes left, while every other aspect of the team plays flawlessly, and that single INT ends the game and disallows a winning TD or FG?

What then?

You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME here B!!!

Yes, the only facts that I report are stats! Imagine that! Aren't those, such as attempts and yardage, completely meaningless stats apart from scoring production, the same things you use to "prove" that Drew is great?

Funny how those same stats were applied to RJ to denounce him as one of the worst QBs ever.

Can you please explain to me how those same exact stats are relogated to nonsense status during an offseason?

I won't hold my breath on any of this...

That's the :deadhorse:, is you guys not anteing up an ounce of truth here!

[Bulldog]

Wys, I have yet to see you answer this question: If Drew is such an awful quarterback, then who should be the starting QB for the Bills right now?

[ryven]

Wys check those D stats again and if they match what you are saying then give me a link cause the first half of the season our D gave up as many points as or offense scored im not saying bledsoe was perfect he made his mistakes. What your making it sound like is that bledsoe was the only reason we lost every one of those games. All I am saying is our defense was weak last year or do you forget that williams riped us for 200 yards grant you he is a great back and our D surrendered 2122 with that many yards there is something wrong.

[WG]

Originally posted by paulB
Wys dude you are the most self serving person I have ever had the misfortune of 'meeting' online or otherwise.

I like to win B!!!

We didn't beat a single team last year that indicated that we were playoff ready!

Or do you disagree? Even someone in this thread downplayed beating the Fins w/o 75% of their starting skill position players in one game and significant injuries in the second game!

Once Drew shows, as he's never done consistently, that he is capable of playing playoff caliber teams either during the regular season or in the playoffs themselves, then and only then will I recant any of this.

In the meantime, I suppose it's either all gonna come out this year or we'll all be content to ride error-ridden football into each and every season in all the games that matter until Drew retires!

Meanwhile, everyone will give him rave reviews simply b/c he's Drew!

Do you realize that just about all of his team records and NFL records have absolutely nothing to do with scoring, wins, or efficiencies in his play? Do you realize that and last season is no different.

It's like rating a RB for the number of carries he gets in spite of the ball crossing the goal line or an average per carry of 3.4 yards!

As I see it, so far w/ Drew here, we haven't even played well offensively against a playoff caliber opponent at all. Of the playoff teams we played last season, Oakland, the Jets, and Green Bay, Drew BLEW CHUNKS w/ an overall performance against those teams of:

3 TDs, 9 INTs, and 12 TOs!

Of those, 1 of those INTs scored a TD for the opponent directly to take us out of the game and eliminate a scoring drive. 4 others gave the opponents excellent field position and set them up all for TDs!

Those individual plays are meaningless???

But then to turn around and blame the D is crazy! Especially in games where they held teams to 0 points not off offensive TOs and 17 points not off offensive TOs!

Is that good to you?

What was lacking on O last season for Drew to play so horribly?

Here's a hint; It has absolutely nothing to do w/ the D or STs!!!

[ryven]

Wys why if our D is so great why couldn't they stop holmes on that one drive that won them the game

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


How much real cash would you like to bet that he was the only one that A. had 18 personal TOs in 7 losses and B. couldn't beat a single team better than .500 and then only while they had 75% of their starting O out?

How much?

Please, oh please, tell me how much???

Why don't you quit crunching numbers and watch some games. The game is played on the field, not in the stat book.

The opener should be interesting. I'm going to study just what you are watching.

[ryven]

like our D didn't give up big plays

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
like our D didn't give up big plays

WTH does the D have to do w/ the O only putting up 18.5 PPG???

Or w/ Drew putting up only 5 TDs in 7 of the team's last 8 games???

Unbelieveable!

Wanna start blaming the Buffalo News, or the concrete used in the stadium, or the alloy used in manufacturing the seats!

Unreal!

[ryven]

Like I said before you are making it sound like we had a stone wall D but out offense total season was better than our defense.

[WG]

Originally posted by billsfanone


Why don't you quit crunching numbers and watch some games. The game is played on the field, not in the stat book.

The opener should be interesting. I'm going to study just what you are watching.

Wys: Stats, game analyses, analysis of TOs, sacks, etc., game facts and data

BFO and the rest of the Ostrich Club:

"Drew rules dude! Why can't you just see that man...! Take a hit and relax dude...., Drew rocks..."

:rolleyes:

LMAO

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
Like I said before you are making it sound like we had a stone wall D but out offense total season was better than our defense.

ryven,

I don't think you're reading what I post!

If our defense allows an average of 19.3 PPG this season, will you be at least minimally happy?

For comparison's sake, according to last season's final rankings, that would have placed us at 7th in the league in scoring defense had the D played like that all season instead of simply the last 10!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=ppg&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2002

Would you be happy w/ a 7th scoring D ranking this season or not?

[ryven]

Just admit our defense had huge holes to fill and we did a good job filling them.

[WG]

As well, will you be happy if our O puts up only 18.5 PPG this season?

Again, on last season's final rankings, that would place us at 30th in the NFL!

Would you be happy with such offensive performance or not?

Will you be happy if Drew launches another 18 TOs in games v. our toughest opponents?

Can you answer those? Their very simple direct questions deserving of a Y or N answer! Either you would be happy w/ those levels of production, or you wouldn't!

[Voltron]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
Take a hit and relax dude


Now that is some advice I can Take!!!

:mex:

[ryven]

our defense according to espn ranked 27th and offense ranked 11 you cant do that with a enept QB at the helm thats what saying

[standingbuffalo43]

hey guys...

long time no see...
and it seems nothing has changed much...

I will concede that DBs poor play in three games led directly to losses for the Bills...(KC/NE/GB)...that happens(wish it didnt, but it does...)


but I am just curious...
how many turnovers did our D produce? or TDs off turnovers???you go on about how drew gave the opponent opportunities on a short field to score, but (not counting Miami games)how many times did we get the short field??? not many... be honest with yourself, Wys...cuz that plays as big a part in winning and losing as the play from the QB... can you at least stop trying to advance your argument within the debate long enough to acknowledge that the Ds lack of turnover production was ONE of many factors that leads to wins and losses?


and for the record, I am neither a DB lover or hater... he is a QB and as such he will have great days & not so great days...like any QB in the league from the Montanas to the Dilfers... if you rely on them to win every game for you you will be disappointed....so dont lump me in with those you say believe that drew can do wrong... he is a human, to expect perfection would be unrealistic...

[ryven]

to answer your ?'s

n
n
but who's to say what our O will be like we have not played a down yet.

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
Just admit our defense had huge holes to fill and we did a good job filling them.

Just answer my most simple questions.

As to yours, YES, indeed they did, which IMO makes the performance of the D as the season went on that much more remarkable!!! We did all that, holding opponents to under 20 PPG w/ no decent DT, absolutely nothing better than mediocre DE play on one side, only two halfway decent LBs, one really!

Yes, absolutely. I'm tellin' ya now, Spikes is gonna be bigger than everyone even thinks! He's gonna stamp this D as his own right from the very first game! Adams, while I'm not as big on him as others who are expecting him to play as he did in what, '00 when the Ravens won the SB, but I certainly think he'll be a plug to stop the bleeding in the rushing D department for sure!

As to Posey, we'll have to see how well he plays, how he's used, and whether or not the change in system to what he didn't play well under at all prior to last season will actually be factors for him. I can see him playing well or poorly depending upon those things. History suggests that he won't match last seasons numbers however.

[ryven]

wys go back to page 3 I did answer your ?'s

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
our defense according to espn ranked 27th and offense ranked 11 you cant do that with a enept QB at the helm thats what saying

Then howcome the offense started ranked #1 for a couple of weeks and then fell like a lead weight to 11th overall by year's end?

What possibly could have happened during that stretch to cause a 10 spot drop in those rankings?

As well, in the first 6 games of the season, the Bills as a team allowed over 34 PPG.

However, again, which you seem to continually ignore, over the last 10 games of the season, that PPG against average dropped by over two TDs/game or 14.7 PPG!

What possibly could have happened for that to occur?

[Novacane]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
I decided to detail for all of those who can't seem to face reality the basics in why we lost all of our 8 games last season.




So you are saying you wrote thie article for yourself?

[ryven]

He and the offense got tired of carrying the team non stop last season look and read some of the report were the players actually mentioned it when you carry a team non stop your offense will falter.

[ryven]

or are you saying football players are robots and if thats the case lay off the jetsons

[Novacane]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi

With a QB of Drew Bledsoe's caliber at the helm, Wys' already tearing him apart. Imagine what you'd say about Jay Fiedler? You're lucky you're not a Dolphins fan. :laughter:


No..................everyone at Finheaven is lucky he's not a Dolphin fan!

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
to answer your ?'s

n
n
but who's to say what our O will be like we have not played a down yet.

OK then! If you wouldn't be happy w/ the Bills being 7th in defense this season, what final ranking will satisfy you?

I'd be happy w/ 7th but think we can do better. 7th, given the upgraded D is about the minimum that I expect. I expect a top 25% D this season, or top 8!

I'm glad to see that you wouldn't be happy w/ an O that puts up 18.5 PPG. So then why did you not view that as problematic when it happened over the last 10 games last season?

As to the third, again, we're hittin' on the problem/issue here. You just can't provide a framework that Drew needs to conform to as a minimal standard for successful performance on this team.

Ie., apparently he's immune to criticism from you which proves my point!

On one hand, when we win games, it matters not why! Drew's the leader, we only could have won those games b/c of him.

On the other, when the team loses, we have to "look at all the factors", even if there weren't any "other factors" contributing to a loss such as very clearly in the K.C. game.

Well, I misspoke, perhaps Gilbride and his idiocy was as equal if not close of a factor!

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
He and the offense got tired of carrying the team non stop last season look and read some of the report were the players actually mentioned it when you carry a team non stop your offense will falter.

So as a result, he decided to "show the fans and team" and start tossing game-altering INTs and start creating FUMBLEs!

I see!

Yeah, if a young, inexperienced, and outmanned D plays poorly, a QB should show his frustration by throwing games!!

OK! That reveals much!

[ryven]

I am just saying that with an improved D the offense wont have the load to carry like the did last year.

[WG]

Sorry ryven,

But I need a new opponent here. Your bias precedes you!

Not a fact anywhere, just blind support for Drew regardless of his play. Highlighting his play and full credit in wins, mitigating his own play and downplaying the things that other QBs get roasted for in losses!

[ryven]

When your D plays poorly for most of the season QB's get tired and make mistakes wether they mean it or not.

[WG]

BTW, aren't you sick and tired of a national media beating up our defense when it played so well and improved dramatically over the last 10?

Or doesn't it matter as long as Drew gets credit for what he didn't do?

As for me, I'm a little miffed that Gray and a totally understaffed defense last season gets slammed while playing very solid football when by all rights they shouldn't have!

Guess that doesn't bother anyone else but me!

I guess that no one cares that Drew, the leader of the team, doesn't stand up to the media and critics who say the D didn't do it's job last 2/3 of last season!

I guess Drew wasn't happy w/ the D allowing only an average of abuot 17 PPG for 9 of our last 10 games!

What a leader!!!

I thought we were a team! Or perhaps Drew isn't aware that the team held K.C. in K.C. to only 17 points among other games!

[WG]

Originally posted by ryven
When your D plays poorly for most of the season QB's get tired and make mistakes wether they mean it or not.

Oh, I'm fully aware!

When the D played so poorly as to allow K.C. only 17 points and virtually flawlessly, it's tough to put up more than 17 v. a team ranked worse than we were defensively and among the bottom feeders!

I fully understand...

:rolleyes:

:deadhorse:

BTW, did you get your Ostrich Club membership card yet?

I'm not sure who the Pres is this season, but you'd better follow up on that if you haven't received.

I'm gonna run now ryven. I've got to go argue w/ the tree outside for a while. I need an upgrade in polemical opponents here.

:biggrin:

[Voltron]

OK Wys.... you win ..... Now move on to any other NFL QB and you could do the same thing. Lets go back and look at the lean years for D in Miami when Marino was playing. He will be in Canton and no matter how much you hate him he was a great QB. How about Elway? I believe he had some problems for a few seasons. Then all the sudden he won a Super Bowl.

The point I am trying to make is that no matter which QB you find all these stats for, you can make the stats do what ever you want them to do. My College Stats teacher told me Statistics could be made to do what ever you want them to do. That is what you are doing here. You are using certain stats to make your point but you never take ALL of them in to consideration.

Nor do I see where stats help to see how the wind was blowing, how cold it was, how the ball traveled in the air, and even plays that the Refs screwed up! So when you try and convince me with Stats that Drew is a horrible QB I don't buy it because of the same reason I wouldn't buy a car based on just stats.

He has become THE leader on this team. He makes people play better than they think they can because he believes in them. Is there a stat for that? How about "Intestinal Fortitude" Any stats for that? Look at what he did for Price!!!! He made him into an over night Multi millionaire! You know Johnson could have never done that for Price!

Nuff said! Get over it Wys

You are the one here who is beating a dead horse not us "Ostrich club members" as you have labeled those of us that don't agree with you.

[Novacane]

Nuff said! Get over it Wys

You are the one here who is beating a dead horse not us "Ostrich club members" as you have labeled those of us that don't agree with you. [/B]


Amen Brother!

[Ð]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
...
Can you answer those? Their very simple direct questions deserving of a Y or N answer! Either you would be happy w/ those levels of production, or you wouldn't!

Wys, only a sucker would respond to your set 'em up/knock 'em down M.O.

People are sick of your lines of questioning/reasoning, etc.
While you may be correct, statistically or otherwise some of the time, it's your approach to others on the board, i.e. "I'm right, you're wrong...Unbelievable!" that turns people off.

Then you go and post "articles" under Wile E., etc. that any editor of a respectable publication would have tossed in the trash bin. IMO BFZ's credibility as a source of Bills information suffers as a result of those front page articles and a lot of your posts.

If I'm like most football fans, I follow the sport because it's fun and a release from the day to day grind. I take no orgasmic thrill on dancing on the head of a pin over some obscure statistical argument, as would most people. The first rule of effective communication is understanding your audience, and also understanding if you actually have an audience or not.

My schtick on this board is comedy, sometimes at the expense of others, but believe it or not I respect other's opinions. At least I'm conscious of the fact I'm trying to be funny whether you agree with my sense of humour or not.

Your schtick seems to be the set 'em up/knock 'em down M.O. I mentioned above or in other words win an argument at all costs. Your posts/articles IMO have actually taken on a life of their own...you are funny in your own right, but rather pathetically funny because of your insistence on winning every argument.

When you question people about why you get unduly hammered and your opinions aren't respected, then you have to look at the respect you give others, and that others are smarter than to get suckered into your game.

Anyway, Wys, I'm not about to volunteer to write for the board, or say that I could do better...just my two cents, call it constructive criticism for what it's worth.

[TedMock]

Originally posted by ryven
When your D plays poorly for most of the season QB's get tired and make mistakes wether they mean it or not.

That's partially true....Wys is correct in saying the defense improved dramatically making this, theoretically, less of a point later in the year. It wasn't the defense later on, it was Gilbride. There's no doubt that Bledsoe's arm tired out. It was obvious that he lost zip later in the year. Our play calling was so off last season that we averaged almost 40 attempts per game!! That's insane especially when you know his arm tires out per his history. If they can get him 20-25 attempts per game via efficient use of our RB's, I think he's even more dangerous. He's great at play action and throws one of the best deep balls in the game. That could open things up so much with 35-40% fewer attempts.

[WG]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green



Amen Brother!

That's absolute BS!

I wrote a piece defending Gray and the D and everyone jumped on me like stink on poop.

You guys are the ones getting all sappy over Drew! I didn't prompt this!

I'm very sorry that most of you can't seem to see some positives from Gray and the D last season!

I find that to be incredibly SAD since you all call yourselves Bills fans when the reality is that most of you are Drew fans first and Bills fans second whether you care to admit it or not!

That piece was not about Drew. The fact that you construed that it was is your issue, not mine!

It was a defense of the national, and even regional, medias, continuing to overlook very significant improvement by the D coupled w/ a death spiral by the O, and levy ALL the blame for what went wrong on the D while giving Drew and the O a complete pass. NPI. LOL

So don't blame me if you cannot accept my defense of Gray and the D!!!

I'll stand up for Gray given the improvement we saw especially given the talent he had to work with.

Meanwhile, most of y'all can join in w/ the national media and blame the weather and every other non-significant or non-existent factor for the D's success and Drew's demise as the season went on.

I deal in truth, facts, and actual data, not bogus personal favoratism based on media praise!

I would like to see some real wins this year, not just a bunch of meaningless offensive accolades whether personal or team!

Last year we had hardly any significant wins. We barely beat S.D. which was significant, but that game we won in spite of Drew, having absolutely nothing to do with him positively.

We beat Miami w/ half a team twice, once aided by a blizzard.

After that, we beat no one of consequence. And even though teams that were far worse than we were beat all of those same exact teams, the credit goes to Drew only for the difference between beating 8, or at least 7 scrubs, over the 3 wins from the season prior.

I will have the last laugh over all of this. Unfortunately, that offers me absolutely no solace!! I'd rather "correct the situation" however that's gonna be done.

But as it now stands, it's apparent to me that most of you would rather lose games w/ Drew, than win them w/ anyone else at QB!!

I'm very sorry to hear that!

[Novacane]

Originally posted by Wys Guy




I wrote a piece defending Gray and the D and everyone jumped on me like stink on poop.




There you go again lumping a couple people into "everyone" again. The overwhelming majority here agree that the D showed big improvements as the year wore on and Drew struggled later on.

You are the one who won't give it a rest. Pure and simple.

[WG]

Originally posted by Voltron
OK Wys.... you win ..... Now move on to any other NFL QB and you could do the same thing. Lets go back and look at the lean years for D in Miami when Marino was playing. He will be in Canton and no matter how much you hate him he was a great QB. How about Elway? I believe he had some problems for a few seasons. Then all the sudden he won a Super Bowl.

Can we? What do you think Marino would have done w/ the team that Drew had last season? He never had a decent RB in the near 20 years that he played, yet, he carried the team.

Drew isn't worthy of putting on Marino's jock in contrast!

Look at what Drew did w/ no RB!! NOTHING!!! HORRENDOUS performances over the season!

And can we find other QBs who played like Drew???

Where are they???

Name one QB who put up anywhere near 18 TOs in 7 of their teams losses last season. Find just one!

In fact, fine just one who put up even 12 or 15 TOs in 7 of their team's losse!!!

Go ahead! If they're so plentiful, then DO IT!! Instead of whining and balling that I'm being unfair!

PROVE me wrong! Prove yourself right!

Then also compare Marino's and Elway's playoff performances to those of Bledsoe?

Can you name one game in Drew's ENTIRE playoff history that wasn't like his last 10 games in the death spiral last season?

JUST ONE!!!

You guys keep hammering me, but you NEVER ante up on these things!

Opinions don't prove ANYTHING! Yet, reread your post that I quoted in its entirety! Any hard data in there?

No! Only suppositions that Drew's equal to Elway and Marino.

Elway did things that Drew can't even dream about although they were about equal in terms of their passing TD production.

Marino did so much more in his passing game that Drew can ever do. Of course, since your only measure is yards and attempts, I suppose they're equal, right?

Who cares about TDs, scoring, and other more important data!!

I mean does scoring actually matter to anyone when evaluating Drew?

B/c in 10 seasons played, he only has 4 seasons at over 20 TDs and in one of them he actually put up more INTs as if that's either possible or the mark of a great QB!

Meanwhile, in how many or what %age did Marino put up more than 20, or heck, even 30, a feat that Drew has NEVER acccomplished in all of his NFL QB greatness!!

Drew's record against teams over .500, playoff teams, and his performances in the playoffs are enough for me to not even consider him to be in Elway's or Marino's league!!

Just for comparison's sake, by the time Bledsoe amasses the amount of yards that Marino did, he'll have nearly 100 fewer TDs.

But heck, who cares right? Scoring doesn't matter! Only attempts. Which BTW, will have taken Drew an additional 900 or so attempts to reach Marino's career yardage mark!

As to Elway, Bledsoe will still have 13 fewer TDs than Elway did and Elway wasn't even known for his passing! He was known for other things that make a QB valuable such as 33 career rushing TDs and 3,400 rushing yards. He certainly wasn't known for tossing INTs all over the place to lose the toughest games!

I'd take either Elway or Marino w/o even giving it a further thought over Bledsoe!

Elway was so much more dimensional than Drew that it's almost laughable to compare the two.

Marino was so much a better passer than Drew is that that's also laughable to suggest otherwise. As well, Drew first even has to match his current career production to even finish that 100 TD passes below Marino on the same amount of yards! To assume that will happen is taking quite a few liberties as well.

[WG]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green



There you go again lumping a couple people into "everyone" again. The overwhelming majority here agree that the D showed big improvements as the year wore on and Drew struggled later on.

You are the one who won't give it a rest. Pure and simple.

"The overwhelming majority" eh?

I guess we're seeing two different things FtG!!!

If that's so, then how come the "reason we didn't do better", even over that stretch that you say "the majority agrees that the D showed big improvements", had absolutely nothing to do w/ them then?

How come it's the D's fault for Drew's poor play?

Funny, isn't it!

You can't have it both ways. Either that guy who wrote the CNN piece and just about every other national media source is right, or I am. To suggest that we won games on an average 18.5 PPG over 2/3 of our season is an absolute insult to anyone w/ a brain and a knowledge of football!

Especially when the D allowed an average of only 19.3 over that same stretch!

[WG]

Meanwhile, no one says "that's not true" about most of the data that I post, they just ignore it and defend it using factless statements of biased affection for Drew!

[WG]

With all this criticism it's getting to the point where I'm gonna actively hope that Brown gets a shot this season just to contrast the two.

I'm sure that if Brown did well, then it'd be b/c the OL is so improved or some nonsense like that, even if he outplays Drew. Which I'm sure won't be difficult if Drew starts out this season on the heels of last one!

[LtBillsFan66]

What did brown ever do to win your admiration? Throw 2 td passes at the end of a blowout at the end of a 3-13 season?

[Rude American]

I didn't even have to see this thread to know who started it and what it was about.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
No, it wasn't that many. In the last 8 he had 10 INTs and 4 lost fumbles.

It was really the last 10 games that he started playing like one of the worst QBs in the league even though he had no more TOs those two prior games. I mean we averaged only 18.5 PPG over the last 10! What else needs to be said. After that 38-21 shellacking of the Fins, we only averaged 16.5 over the other 9 games. One of those games was the first Fin game where the D put up 7 as well. That drops the offensive scoring average into the 15s for those 9 games!

That's horrible!!! Only two teams in the league averaged less than 16 PPG, Dallas and Houston. Our offense was so much better than theirs that it's silly! So for us to have played to such a level for over half the season is pathetic! I blame Gilbride as much as I blame Drew.

Where he had major league issues was in playing the good/best teams.

He tossed all 15 of his INTs and added 3 lost fumbles in the games vs.:

N.E. (8-8) twice
Jets (9-7) twice
G.B. (12-4)
K.C. (8-8)
Oakland (11-5)

They represented 18 of the team's 22 TOs in those games. It's impossible for any objective person to ignore.

I fully agree, we didn't need much from him last season to make the playoffs, just not to give 3 or 4 games away as indicated above. I mean think about it, if we win the K.C. game and any other game that he was horrendous in, then we win the division.

But what has galled me for quite some time is this notion that the D sucked all season long. It's simply not true. And when you consider the complete lack of talent in the front 7, I think it's pretty amazing how well we did do and how we did improve as the year went on. Think about it, we started Robinson, a platoon at one DT, Ahanotu at DE and only two LBs for the most part!

Oh well, like I said, I don't think there's any doubt that this is all gonna become much more clear this season as well.

Longest post yet :type:

[Stewie]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


ROFLMAO

Can you please point out for me some stats that others have used to support the arguments that are against what I've laid out?

What if those three plays are all INTs, one for a TD, and two others ending our own scoring drives?

What if that one single play is an INT as we are approaching the opponents red zone w/ 4 minutes left, while every other aspect of the team plays flawlessly, and that single INT ends the game and disallows a winning TD or FG?

What then?

You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME here B!!!

Yes, the only facts that I report are stats! Imagine that! Aren't those, such as attempts and yardage, completely meaningless stats apart from scoring production, the same things you use to "prove" that Drew is great?

Funny how those same stats were applied to RJ to denounce him as one of the worst QBs ever.

Can you please explain to me how those same exact stats are relogated to nonsense status during an offseason?

I won't hold my breath on any of this...

That's the :deadhorse:, is you guys not anteing up an ounce of truth here!

Why don't you answer this question: If not Bledsoe, who would you have rather signed? Jeff Blake?

Frankly, I don't have time to sit here and argue with you, but I could successfully.

In a nutshell, the major flaw with your analysis is that you regard one player as solely responsible for turnover. Nowhere in your self serving filibuster do you take into account that 11 players need to be on the same page to make any play work, and something as simple as a missed route or blocking assignment can lead to a turnover.

Your one sided argument is logical when considered in its little egotistical bubble. When you take reality into account, however, its not that hard to see that your perception is only one piece of the pie.

[Voltron]

Originally posted by Wys Guy



And can we find other QBs who played like Drew???

Where are they???


John Elway any year before he went to the SuperBowl

[Voltron]

Elway Stats

Year Team Comp Att Comp% Yds Yd/Att TD INT Sacked-Yds Rating
1983 Den 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 28- 218 54.9
1984 Den 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 24- 158 76.8
1985 Den 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 38- 307 70.2
1986 Den 280 504 55.6 3485 6.9 19 13 32- 233 79.0
1987 Den 224 410 54.6 3198 7.8 19 12 20- 138 83.4
1988 Den 274 496 55.2 3309 6.7 17 19 30- 237 71.4
1989 Den 223 416 53.6 3051 7.3 18 18 35- 298 73.7
1990 Den 294 502 58.6 3526 7.0 15 14 43- 311 78.5
1991 Den 242 451 53.7 3253 7.2 13 12 45- 305 75.4


This guy is off to canton I bet and he didn't seem to get real good till he was just over 30!

Hmmmmm What QB ..... That Plays for the Bills .... Just turned 30 last year??? :huh:

[Novacane]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
With all this criticism it's getting to the point where I'm gonna actively hope that Brown gets a shot this season just to contrast the two.

I'm sure that if Brown did well, then it'd be b/c the OL is so improved or some nonsense like that, even if he outplays Drew. Which I'm sure won't be difficult if Drew starts out this season on the heels of last one!



That's hardly true. IF Brown got a chance and did great I'd certainly be happy. All I am saying.....................you seem to be saying he's great when we have seen nothing from him but 3 decent quarters

[G. Host]

Because Henry was putting the ball on the turf far too often, the Bills far too often relied on passing game to bail them out. It is not just the fumbles but the inability to depend upon Henry which cost us some of those games.

You can not just blame on what players do - you need to factor in what players don't do due to what is available.

Personally I did not think Drew belonged in Pro Bowl - his short passing game stinks (he is exactly the opposite of Brady) and he attempts to make a needle throw too often but Drew did not have a lot of options last year IMO. I did not consider the Bills offense 'hot' last year - just lucky.

[BillsMan80]

Wys, you happen to keep bringing up Drew's individual turnovers as a consistent factor, yet you discount key information that isn't in the stats. Try reasons for turnovers. Tipped passes, etc., etc. Against the Jets, in both games, Drew had 2 INTs over both games that were tipped and intercepted. Tipped by our own player. Is that Drew's fault? What do you want Drew to do, pass the ball and then go play receiver on his own pass? Also, you talk about all his key turnovers in games like the Green Bay game, and yes he had some. That game however, was ugly, as Henry never got going at all that game, and not to mention, Drew was sacked 5 times alone by Vonnie Holliday, who made Jonas Jennings look like a turnstile. It's kind of tough to make plays when you are running for your life all game. You seem to blame everything on one player, when in fact there are many different factors involved. In hockey, if a goalie lets a goal in, is the goalie solely to blame? Of course not. You need to find something else to discuss, because your points are worthless. Yes, Drew deserves some blame, however, others are at fault too.

[Nighthawk]

Blah, blah, blah...Wys' needs to hear himself again!

[Dman]

Wys..Wys...Wys...Wys...my man...
You know how I just hate to be critical...It's just not in my nature..
but when you only "partially" blame the ST for the home opening loss to the J-E-T-s..and then lay the blame totally at Drew's feet...I must protest..
You have this knack of posting stats that seem to prove your points..but it's curious as to how you can omit some of the stats that don't quite fit your scenerio..
You did point out that ST allowed one TD in regulation..what you didn't include was that they also allowed a blocked punt that gave the Jets possession on our own 24 yard line..and led to a FG...and the fact that we missed a FG....plus the KO return in OT.

Of course one could argue that if DB would have driven the Bills for TD's then the blocked punt and missed field goal wouldn't have happened.

Me..I lay the blame for that loss TOTALLY on ST...you can't win many games when they spot the opponents a 17-20 point cushion when your main characters are watching from the sideline.

Just remember "home-run-throw-forward...that was all RJ's fault...right?

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Dman
Just remember "home-run-throw-forward...that was all RJ's fault...right?

Nope! It was Flutie's fault. :D

[standingbuffalo43]

Originally posted by standingbuffalo43
hey guys...

long time no see...
and it seems nothing has changed much...

I will concede that DBs poor play in three games led directly to losses for the Bills...(KC/NE/GB)...that happens(wish it didnt, but it does...)


but I am just curious...
how many turnovers did our D produce? or TDs off turnovers???you go on about how drew gave the opponent opportunities on a short field to score, but (not counting Miami games)how many times did we get the short field??? not many... be honest with yourself, Wys...cuz that plays as big a part in winning and losing as the play from the QB... can you at least stop trying to advance your argument within the debate long enough to acknowledge that the Ds lack of turnover production was ONE of many factors that leads to wins and losses?


and for the record, I am neither a DB lover or hater... he is a QB and as such he will have great days & not so great days...like any QB in the league from the Montanas to the Dilfers... if you rely on them to win every game for you you will be disappointed....so dont lump me in with those you say believe that drew can do wrong... he is a human, to expect perfection would be unrealistic...


still waiting for a response???

DB is criticised for his turnovers that led to scoring opportunities for the opposition... my question still stands... how many extra scoring opportunities did the D provide DB & the O?

[Schobel94]

LOL! Did this genius just say that the loss to NYJ on opening day was "partly" the ST's fault?!? Am I hearing correctly. Oh yeah, they only allowed 2 TD's!! One in OT!! Oh right, it was all Bledsoes fault, he only threaded two Jets defenders on 4th and 10 with seconds remaining to tie the game up and send us into OT. Yeah it was all his fault. Seriosuly, it was his fault, he should have lept out of the stands and made a superman tackle on that kickoff then returned a fumble for the winnign TD with 8 Jets hanging on his back, why, 78.6% of the QB's in the league would have done that!

[Ð]

Shobel at least be honest with yourself and get your objective stats correct. It was 78.62%

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
With all the bashing of myself in standing up for the defense last season, I decided to detail for all of those who can't seem to face reality the basics in why we lost all of our 8 games last season.

Sooo.....is that why Donahoe retooled the defense with 5-6 new starters? And brought in Dick LeBeau?

Is that why TD pretty much let the offense stand pat? (2-3 new starters- average to below average turnover for any unit per year)
Originally posted by Wys Guy

Partyline is that our D played poorly thus overcoming tremendous offensive efforts by the offense.
This doesn't even make sense. The offense overcame numerous poor defensive showings, fell short in some other poor defensive showings.


Originally posted by Wys Guy
:rolleyes:

'Bout time you got something right about your own posts

[shadowfax]

your post seems to suggest that your way of looking at those games is the most wise, the most accurate. Your self affirmation-style of writing is pretty funny. Too bad your views are so incomplete. It would be really nice if the world were really like each of our subjective realities. But it's not. These games are a lot more complicated than you make them out to be. You blame the Jets game on Drew? That's a fuggin joke. Our special teams were the primary reason we lost that game. Drew made some throws that only a few other qbs in the league can make. You fail to credit where credit is due, and target a bad/broken play by a guy who almost singlehandedly won the game for us...?

I'm glad you're not a journalist.

Every QB throws interceptions. Some of the best games ever played by hall of fame QBs had interceptions in them. Who the hell are you kidding? I don't know about you, but I actually watched that game, and Drew was spectacular in his debut.

INTs aren't always about the QB, either. Maybe a receiver runs the wrong route, or slips and exposes himself. Maybe a CB just makes a great fuggin play on the ball and beats our WR.

Also, (and I'm only going to mention the first game because I'd be here all evening) our defense wasn't even close to good that day. Evidence? The Jets offense was horrible in their first six games. After they beat us, they couldn't put a point on the board thru their next four games. The truth is, our defense made them look good. Our offense, led by Drew and Travis, kept us in the game to the end, where our ST let us down.

[the dude]

and this is a BIG BUTTTT - he ignores the complete inability of our D to take the ball away from the opposition or generate big plays. I defer to the research gurus but I believe one of the local papers documented how the average scoring drive for the Bills was significantly longer than average.

Wys, I agree Bledsoe's performance in the first 6 games seems to overshadow his relative poor play throughout the 2nd half of the year. But for you to completely ignore the defense's inability to come up with a big sack or turnover is missing ahlf the problem. Compare our defense with th Atlanta's, for instance - we gave up less yards and less ypc would indicate we have a better defense but that would be looking at the big picture with blinders. They genrated twice as many big plays (sacks and turnovers) as we did. Some of this philosophy could be attributed to Williams and Gray realizing we didn't have the talent to create any big plays. THIS is where I see the team's biggest potential for improvement. We may be a top 10 defense, but we better cause more havoc for the other team.

With regard to the offense'd downward spiral - I agree with you that Gilbride became overly enamored with Drew's arm. However, Travis' fumbles didn't help much either - and that combined with Drew's brain cramps in the games immediately after the Bellichek beating contributed to the offense trying to pull their horns in. I think Gilbride realized that if we don't make tons of mistakes aginst the dreck teams (like Cincy), we can win with a relatively conservative gameplan.

Drew's biggest strength is his arm. I want to see it used as a weapon when people aren't expecting it this season. I think our plan to move to a more run-oriented attack is only going to help him and the offensive line get better. This is Gilbride's turn to show he learned from last year's follies.

[Dozerdog]

Awesome first post, dude!:up:

Welcome to the Zone!

[Schobel94]

Yeah that was a good post. The defense was hardly able to put the ball in the O's hands, and that is so important, and (using a techinque pattented by Wys) you take away the first Miaimi game and we had hardly any turnovers what so ever.

I believe the main reason the O slipped is that we became too predictable! Our offense was based on a long vertical passing game, and the fact is it is very hard to sustain that kind of O later in the season when it is cold and windy, its just too difficult to do. We passed the ball 67% of the time, the league average was 54%, thats just too much pressure to put on the QB.