100% support for EJ Manuel

[Don't Panic]

You'd think that thread title would be a given considering he was only a year removed from being our 1st round pick, but it's not. I remember his senior year... I wanted to like him but was on the fence because I saw too many mistakes that seemed avoidable. 10 starts later I'm not sure how much he has improved from that last game as a Seminole, but I'm certainly not ready to close the book. How could anyone be? If you don't get a full year in this league to prove yourself then something is seriously wrong. So I'm pulling for him...

I have no no desire to see Kyle Orton. I want 16 games out of Manuel. I don't see Rob Johnson, JP Losman and Trent Edwards. I see a kid who is committed to the craft and will continuously improve. I'm not sure he will ever be great, but I am sure he doesn't have to be. I don't see injury prone, I see a couple cases of bad luck, which is behind him now.

So I hope to God that the tested and emotionally torn fans of these Bills have the patience to let this kid grow into this role and not to turn on him in what would assuredly be a rough and nasty way. If they do, that will have an effect on this kid. He needs the time, the patience, and the backing of the base to get it right. Looking around here lately, it's pretty obvious he has the luxury of none of those three. What a shame... I'm not giving up on him though. That's not an option in my eyes.

[justasportsfan]

I hope we never have to put Orton in too except for the last game of the season when we need to rest Ej for the playoffs.

[Meathead]

well said

the support cant be unconditional, if he struggles consistently for say the first quarter then you probably have to go with the expensive backup to try to save the season. but certainly he deserves a ton more support than hes getting right now

one good thing is that the fans have so completely overreacted and drawn a picture in their minds based on a poor preseason that it wont take much for him to look good in comparison. if he can put in a reasonably acceptable game in chicago even if they lose then he could see opinions turn in his favor pretty quick. but hes gonna ride that hyper-critical train all season regardless

[swiper]

On Sunday, you put the *****ing away and support the cause.

[Novacane]

I think he gets at least the first half of the season. Once they pull him that's it. If that happens he's done in Buffalo imo.

[Meathead]

thats not always true. favre and elway got pulled early in their careers and managed to recover. but it certainly would be way way tougher for ej if the coaches decide to go with orton when ej is available

[YardRat]

So I hope to God that the tested and emotionally torn fans of these Bills have the patience to let this kid grow into this role and not to turn on him in what would assuredly be a rough and nasty way.

Too late. Nice post, though.

[DraftBoy]

Too late. Nice post, though.

It was too late about 5 minutes after they drafted him for many.

[BillsImpossible]

Most rookie QB's don't do well. Manuel was 4-6 and should have been 5-5.

Compared to other rookie QB's that started 10 games or more, EJ Manuel is pretty damn good.

[jimmifli]

This defense has the potential to be between top 5-7ish. And if they reach that potential, an offense with a competent QB and a solid running game gets this team to the playoffs.

I'm not willing to throw everyone else under the bus in the name of EJ's development. EJ has a couple games to prove he can win. If we go 0-2 to start, EJ should hold the clipboard until Orton proves he's worse or the Bills are eliminated from the playoffs.

[Albany,n.y.]

If this was a normal season where we had our 1st round pick and stable ownership who had hired the guys in place, I'd be all in favor of EJ getting the season (because if he sucked at least we could draft his replacement), but if he shows signs of failure, like Losman did in 2005, the coach has to yank him because otherwise there's going to be a mutiny among the veterans with Orton not playing and Marrone will feel the heat because if he goes 6-10 he's going to get himself & Whaley fired.
Before Orton came to Buffalo, the team was all in on EJ. That changed when Orton signed. The fact that Cleveland has the Bills #1 and the coach & GM have no stability is why they have to win as many games as they can & if it hurts EJ's development, too darn bad. He's an adult and he better either produce or expect to be on the bench. I can't imagine a new owner being very happy watching the Browns picking high in the draft, especially if a highly rated QB is available in that spot, with the Bills 2015 pick.
That said, I hope he produces so that pulling him never HAS TO happen.

[Albany,n.y.]

Most rookie QB's don't do well. Manuel was 4-6 and should have been 5-5.

Compared to other rookie QB's that started 10 games or more, EJ Manuel is pretty damn good.

EJ couldn't have said it better himself. In fact I think he has stated similar thoughts throughout this year's preseason.

[Novacane]

It was too late about 5 minutes after they drafted him for many.

They didn't wait that long.

[Skooby]

Who knows what might happen, maybe it was vanilla served all along ?

[BillsOverDolphins]

Buffalo Shills out in full force...christ almighty yardrat is nauseating. Yeah, we'll all be excited week 1 (myself included), and that excitement will quickly turn into frustration. He's not going to flip the switch and suddenly have good mechanics or know how to read coverages consistently...he'll likely never be able to do the latter even if given another 2 years.

Go Bills...

[bleve]

This defense has the potential to be between top 5-7ish. And if they reach that potential, an offense with a competent QB and a solid running game gets this team to the playoffs.

I'm not willing to throw everyone else under the bus in the name of EJ's development. EJ has a couple games to prove he can win. If we go 0-2 to start, EJ should hold the clipboard until Orton proves he's worse or the Bills are eliminated from the playoffs.

This is my feeling as well.

Starting Orton because of his competent experience does not mean "EJ is a BUST!" I like the effort and sincerity of EJ, and believe there is a potential high ceiling.

It appears though, it will take a while, and let's give our team the best chance to win.

[TakingItuptheChin]

Most rookie QB's don't do well. Manuel was 4-6 and should have been 5-5.

Compared to other rookie QB's that started 10 games or more, EJ Manuel is pretty damn good.
He could easily also been 2-8

[OpIv37]

well said

the support cant be unconditional, if he struggles consistently for say the first quarter then you probably have to go with the expensive backup to try to save the season. but certainly he deserves a ton more support than hes getting right now

one good thing is that the fans have so completely overreacted and drawn a picture in their minds based on a poor preseason that it wont take much for him to look good in comparison. if he can put in a reasonably acceptable game in chicago even if they lose then he could see opinions turn in his favor pretty quick. but hes gonna ride that hyper-critical train all season regardless

He doesn't deserve anything because he showed ZERO improvement. Most of us had low expectations for EJ in preseason. We just wanted some signs of improvement- go deep more often, be more accurate. But even that reduced standard was too much to ask.

I hope the kid succeeds, I really do. I just don't see any reason to believe it will happen.

[paladin warrior]

Me too.. I am support to E. J Manual. It not his fault. Because he is young and O-Line is awful and screw up . Plus Offensive coach is garage :hang: and OB coach is piece of s***Y :down:

[RedEyE]

Best thread I've seen on this site in months. Of course people will be sure to **** all over it but at least someone is making the effort to remain positive.

[kishoph]

It was too late about 5 minutes after they drafted him for many.

Which brought many preconceived opinions on what he'd do in the NFL and unfortunately many people are more happy with thinking they were right over trying to give Manuel a chance.

[Don't Panic]

Best thread I've seen on this site in months. Of course people will be sure to **** all over it but at least someone is making the effort to remain positive.

I just don't see spending that much time attention on anything in life if you can't be more positive than negative about it. Seems like a pretty obvious rule to live by, right?

[Night Train]

You'd think that thread title would be a given considering he was only a year removed from being our 1st round pick, but it's not. I remember his senior year... I wanted to like him but was on the fence because I saw too many mistakes that seemed avoidable. 10 starts later I'm not sure how much he has improved from that last game as a Seminole, but I'm certainly not ready to close the book. How could anyone be? If you don't get a full year in this league to prove yourself then something is seriously wrong. So I'm pulling for him...

I have no no desire to see Kyle Orton. I want 16 games out of Manuel. I don't see Rob Johnson, JP Losman and Trent Edwards. I see a kid who is committed to the craft and will continuously improve. I'm not sure he will ever be great, but I am sure he doesn't have to be. I don't see injury prone, I see a couple cases of bad luck, which is behind him now.

So I hope to God that the tested and emotionally torn fans of these Bills have the patience to let this kid grow into this role and not to turn on him in what would assuredly be a rough and nasty way. If they do, that will have an effect on this kid. He needs the time, the patience, and the backing of the base to get it right. Looking around here lately, it's pretty obvious he has the luxury of none of those three. What a shame... I'm not giving up on him though. That's not an option in my eyes.

Well said.

It's unknown if Manuel will succeed or not. I GET THAT.

Orton is a decent backup, so the alternative is at least there. Still, his ceiling is done and I'll root for Manuel to succeed.

[Fletch]

This defense has the potential to be between top 5-7ish. And if they reach that potential, an offense with a competent QB and a solid running game gets this team to the playoffs.

I'm not willing to throw everyone else under the bus in the name of EJ's development. EJ has a couple games to prove he can win. If we go 0-2 to start, EJ should hold the clipboard until Orton proves he's worse or the Bills are eliminated from the playoffs.


This is my feeling as well.

I'd love to share this viewpoint, but I don't understand why so many people think that this D has improved.

Has this registered with anyone, that last season we couldn't beat one team, not one single team, that finished better than ranked 18th in passing, and that now our pass D is worse.

You don't just overlook something like that.

Our linebacking corps is nothing but run stuffers. Unfortunately this isn't 1995 anymore where RBs carry the day in the NFL, these days it's QBs, WRs, TEs, and ever RBs out of the backfield and the passing game.

We lost Byrd permanently and Kiko for the season, arguably our two best pass defenders. So OK, we improve at stopping the run, which I still wouldn't count on because Schwartz is going to have to play 4 man fronts frequently, but how does such a regression in pass D amount to an improvement in D?

It doesn't and it cannot possibly be spun that way, yet so many of you cavalierly insist that the D will be better.

To top it off, we play even more top-half passing teams this season, the NFCN has three of them.

Have any of you thinking that this D is improved considered what we're going to do on 3rd-downs? Spikes, Brown, and Rivers, our three starters according to TOS, all specialize in run D to the extent that they specialize. Spikes is tops but the other two not so much. Brown is unproven and Rivers a borderline starter. It's not like we have a bunch of top notch pass-D linebackers sitting the bench just waiting to come in on 3rds.

I'll predict now that this will be a near record worst season for us in 3rd-down conversions allowed. We'll see. But that's the way this is shaping up.

That doesn't spell top 5-7 D. Everyone seems to be approaching this from the angle that if a lie is told often enough it becomes the truth. That may work in politics, but that's hardly the case in the NFL.

[Fletch]

Best thread I've seen on this site in months. Of course people will be sure to **** all over it but at least someone is making the effort to remain positive.

Come on, how the team performs has absolutely zero to do with our perceptions and what we say.

This projecting of how poor the team is onto other fans is childish. This isn't an exercise in fan motivation. Please!

[Fletch]

I just don't see spending that much time attention on anything in life if you can't be more positive than negative about it. Seems like a pretty obvious rule to live by, right?

Some of us prefer to simply look at the way things really are instead of trying to delude ourselves that they're really better.

What you and others don't get is that our goals are all the same. Talk about being more negative than positive, what about posters that slam others for "not being fans," or for being "trolls" simply because of a post or opinion that doesn't tickle you the way you want it to?

I guess slamming others is really positive in life, huh?

Seems like a massive double-standard to me. Being unjustifiably positive about things that have no basis while being terminally negative towards anyone that doesn't think like you do.

[coastal]

Ralph is dead.

[trapezeus]

the thing about teams who get the luxury of having their qb grow into the role is that the coaches take some of the pressure off by putting the team as a whole in a position to win. and those teams who go into the second season witha questionmark qb like EJ can still squeak their way into the playoffs or be close in the last few weeks so that the fan base is engaged and excited.

Yes they get frustrated by bad mistakes etc, but they understand it if the team finds a way to win elsewhere. And this so far is on marrone and hackett. They need to take the pressure off of EJ and start getting the team to perform elsewhere.

in the last 14 years, it's not that we are just mediocre, but that we need a math degree to figure out how to make the playoffs by early november. And then no one cares. Only once were we legitimately in the race until the very end.

so i'm for giving EJ time. i think he's going to be very average. but if he is average and the team somehow squeaks into a wildcard spot, i'm all for seeing if he is moving forward. if he is average and they miss the playoffs, were pretty much out by November, and coaching continues to hinder the team, i'm all for firing marrone (as long as brandon is gone as well) and starting over.

for the bills to suck this year when trading a 1st rounder, it will be inexplicable on how brandon keeps his job or can keep the jobs for his friends.

[Buckets]

You'd think that thread title would be a given considering he was only a year removed from being our 1st round pick, but it's not. I remember his senior year... I wanted to like him but was on the fence because I saw too many mistakes that seemed avoidable. 10 starts later I'm not sure how much he has improved from that last game as a Seminole, but I'm certainly not ready to close the book. How could anyone be? If you don't get a full year in this league to prove yourself then something is seriously wrong. So I'm pulling for him...

I have no no desire to see Kyle Orton. I want 16 games out of Manuel. I don't see Rob Johnson, JP Losman and Trent Edwards. I see a kid who is committed to the craft and will continuously improve. I'm not sure he will ever be great, but I am sure he doesn't have to be. I don't see injury prone, I see a couple cases of bad luck, which is behind him now.

So I hope to God that the tested and emotionally torn fans of these Bills have the patience to let this kid grow into this role and not to turn on him in what would assuredly be a rough and nasty way. If they do, that will have an effect on this kid. He needs the time, the patience, and the backing of the base to get it right. Looking around here lately, it's pretty obvious he has the luxury of none of those three. What a shame... I'm not giving up on him though. That's not an option in my eyes.

Kudos to you. However, all the evidence so far doesn't support this kind of optimism. I personally am disturbed by his inability to shake off making so many stupid mistakes or if they are not mistakes, his incompetence.

[Bill Cody]

Kudos to you. However, all the evidence so far doesn't support this kind of optimism. I personally am disturbed by his inability to shake off making so many stupid mistakes or if they are not mistakes, his incompetence.

He's actually making too few mistakes in my opinion. His turnover rate is low, exceptionally low actually for a guy who's as green as he is. I'd like to see him be more aggressive even if it means some turnovers. The guys that grade Manuel on the same scale as a vet QB just don't understand the game or don't care to be fair. Rookie QB's make LOTS of mistakes. To me they are to be encouraged, that's how they develop.

[justasportsfan]

We have a rb and wr corp that would make defenses cringe. The only thing that's keeping defenses from picking their poison is EJ.

[swiper]

Ralph is dead.

Doesn't seem like it.

[ServoBillieves]

On Sunday, you put the *****ing away and support the cause.

:bf1::bf1:

[Mr. Miyagi]

It was too late about 5 minutes after they drafted him for many.
I still fail to understand how so many people, from media talking heads to Bills fans, have already counted EJ out. He's played only a handful of games as a rookie, and a few preseason games that don't count. Suddenly we've all seen enough and are ready to send him out to pasture. Despite his stats after one year is no worse than the Peyton Manning Andrew Luck of the world. How are these people so sure so soon? If we're going to cut bait, don't we want to have a significant sample size first before we can be certain that he can't play?

[BillsOverDolphins]

Despite his stats after one year is no worse than the Peyton Manning Andrew Luck of the world.

17054

[OpIv37]

I still fail to understand how so many people, from media talking heads to Bills fans, have already counted EJ out. He's played only a handful of games as a rookie, and a few preseason games that don't count. Suddenly we've all seen enough and are ready to send him out to pasture. Despite his stats after one year is no worse than the Peyton Manning Andrew Luck of the world. How are these people so sure so soon? If we're going to cut bait, don't we want to have a significant sample size first before we can be certain that he can't play?
He played in 10 games last year and 4 preseason games (maybe 5- I didn't watch the last one)

No one expects him to be Tom Brady with that little experience but, like I said, we were hoping for some signs of growth.

So far, there have been none. There is literally not one thing that he is doing better now than he did in his very first preseason game last year.

It's not impossible for him to improve, but after showing no growth over the last year, it sure as hell isn't likely.

[Mr. Pink]

I 100% support Kyle Orton. The guy who could actually get some wins with this team.

The sooner the team gets to him, the better.

It's not EJ's fault he was overdrafted and I'm sure he's a great guy...he just ain't much of an NFL QB.

[Oaf]

I don't ever think he'll be a winning QB, no matter how many games he gets unfortunately.

That doesn't mean I want to see Orton in there though. Not like we'd win with Kelly Holcomb the II. I'd rather have Tuel or literally any other prospect.

[RedEyE]

Come on, how the team performs has absolutely zero to do with our perceptions and what we say.

This projecting of how poor the team is onto other fans is childish. This isn't an exercise in fan motivation. Please!

I never said that. My point is that a lot of you guys are throwing in the towel before the 1st down is even played. A lot of you guys are dropping players before they've had a decent opportunity to prove themselves.
This site reads like an obituary most of the time. Fact is the Bills are 0-0, the season starts Sunday and they have a young QB with a tremendous amount of upside. Tired of reading all of the doom & gloom.

[k-oneputt]

Now for the truth of what will happen if the **** hits the fan:

If EJ lays an egg in Chciago and then follows it with another Tampa first half in the opener against Miami......
Look the F out because all hell will break out in that stadium when they are going into the lockerroom at halftime.
If you think the boo's were bad in the Tampa game........

[Mr. Miyagi]

No one expects him to be Tom Brady with that little experience but, like I said, we were hoping for some signs of growth.

So far, there have been none. There is literally not one thing that he is doing better now than he did in his very first preseason game last year.

It's not impossible for him to improve, but after showing no growth over the last year, it sure as hell isn't likely.
Are you a professional talent evaluator? I know you're a scientific and statistic person, so you must have data that backs up your claim, correct?

[Fletch]

I never said that. My point is that a lot of you guys are throwing in the towel before the 1st down is even played. A lot of you guys are dropping players before they've had a decent opportunity to prove themselves.
This site reads like an obituary most of the time. Fact is the Bills are 0-0, the season starts Sunday and they have a young QB with a tremendous amount of upside. Tired of reading all of the doom & gloom.

It's not about proof in that sense, it's about showing some signs of improvement and betterment over last season. If anything he's shown a regression, not an improvement.

But here's the thing, what's going on now, for anyone that's bothered to look into it, and there's far more than ample evidence, went on for four seasons at FSU and they were unable to do much with Manuel. What's so hard to understand, he succeeded there for primarily one reason and one reason only, the talent differential between players on FSU contrasted with the talent level of players on their opponents' rosters.

Manuel included as he was was big and athletic. But being big and athletic just doesn't provide that same advantage in the NFL. We all know this whether we care to admit it or not.

Manuel does not have that advantage anymore and must now find other means of excelling, but he can't, because those other things failed him at FSU too despite what some great coaching attempted to do before throwing in the towel. To think that we have better coaching in Buffalo is laughable.

What's so difficult to understand in all that? It should be trivial.

[Fletch]

Are you a professional talent evaluator? I know you're a scientific and statistic person, so you must have data that backs up your claim, correct?

Are you?

It's funny, people provide all kinds of evidence for something, then in walk people bearing statements like yours above implying the opposite, yet without a shred of evidence other than "we don't know." What an eye opening revelation Miyagi! I mean just ***** BRILLIANT!

So we're supposed to assume that you are a talent evaluator that is capable of completely disqualifying a qualified opinion of another.

Anyone that's studied football knows how to evaluate talent at some level or another, this isn't for the "experts" only or our FO wouldn't be worse than a random fan poll would be now, would they.

I insisted that Manuel would be a bust the moment they drafted him. Why? Because I had inside info? No, because I read enough from other people that doid have inside info and made it public well before the Draft, that gave good reasons why Manuel's skills would not translate well to the NFL. For no other reason.

I've provided more information on Manuel in this way from talent evaluators, but apparently you've read none of it.

[OpIv37]

Are you a professional talent evaluator? I know you're a scientific and statistic person, so you must have data that backs up your claim, correct?

So your contention is that my opinion is invalid because I'm not a professional talent evaluator? Well if that's the criteria, we might as well shut this board down because no one here is qualified to have a football opinion.

Go back and watch the games. Go back and look at the stats. And see if you can find one area where EJ improved. And I'm not talking about comparing him to Manning or Brady. I'm simply talking about comparing where he is now to where he was a year ago, and I see absolutely zero difference.

[Historian]

So we're supposed to assume that you are a talent evaluator that is capable of completely disqualifying a qualified opinion of another.

.

No, but he will grab your ass at a tailgate!

[Bill Cody]

So your contention is that my opinion is invalid because I'm not a professional talent evaluator? Well if that's the criteria, we might as well shut this board down because no one here is qualified to have a football opinion.

Go back and watch the games. Go back and look at the stats. And see if you can find one area where EJ improved. And I'm not talking about comparing him to Manning or Brady. I'm simply talking about comparing where he is now to where he was a year ago, and I see absolutely zero difference.

I'm not going by preseason. Give me 4 full regular season games and see if there's progress there. If this player had been drafted in the 3rd round which is about where he should have been (not that he would have lasted that long but just saying that was his real draft grade) people would not have the ridiculous expectations they have for him. He may never pan out. But having Fletch post 2000 anti EJ posts means nothing. All our opinions good or bad mean nothing. Have to wait and see if he progresses. I have seen no evidence that I should be swayed on just about any football issue one way or another by the geniuses on this board. I just think we need to wait.

[stuckincincy]

I'm not going by preseason. Give me 4 full regular season games and see if there's progress there. If this player had been drafted in the 3rd round which is about where he should have been (not that he would have lasted that long but just saying that was his real draft grade) people would not have the ridiculous expectations they have for him. He may never pan out. But having Fletch post 2000 anti EJ posts means nothing. All our opinions good or bad mean nothing. Have to wait and see if he progresses. I have seen no evidence that I should be swayed on just about any football issue one way or another by the geniuses on this board. I just think we need to wait.

I can't recall seeing a team trot out their starters on offense and defense and starting QB as much as BUF did this pre season. They even had the extra HOF game, which is a hug fest but does allow for evaluation and practice against competition.

We all wait, but there's little so far to convince geniuses or otherwise that Manuel is miraculously going to make a sharp turn. This panic signing of Orton at high cost wasn't a sign of confidence. I think a another sign of their panic was last season's no-huddle, quick snap scheme. That they realized in camp that this fellow can only see one receiver.

[justasportsfan]

Watching Russell Wilson is what I hope EJ can do. Packers D had to pick their poison facing Wilson. If GB tried to stop the run, Wilson made them pay . If they tried to play the pass, Lynch went Beastmode.

Watching Wilson run the read option is night and day compared to EJ. 99% of the time EJ ends up handing the ball anyways and D's know it, so why bother running it?

[Bill Cody]

I can't recall seeing a team trot out their starters on offense and defense and starting QB as much as BUF did this pre season. They even had the extra HOF game, which is a hug fest but does allow for evaluation and practice against competition.

We all wait, but there's little so far to convince geniuses or otherwise that Manuel is miraculously going to make a sharp turn. This panic signing of Orton at high cost wasn't a sign of confidence. I think a another sign of their panic was last season's no-huddle, quick snap scheme. That they realized in camp that this fellow can only see one receiver.

You have a VERY inexperienced team on offense, on the line, at receiver, at QB, probably the youngest overall in the league. Giving them reps is kind of an obvious thing to do. The Orton signing is really more of a realization that Tuel is not a reasonable backup. That could change of course but IMO that's not why they brought in a 30 something journeyman. It's not about miracles with Manuel. It's about building consistency, about slowing the game down, about reading defenses, knowing your receivers. That stuff absolutely 100% does not happen in 9 games. NFL QB is the hardest job in sports, that's why there's always a shortage of good ones.

[stuckincincy]

You have a VERY inexperienced team on offense, on the line, at receiver, at QB, probably the youngest overall in the league. Giving them reps is kind of an obvious thing to do. The Orton signing is really more of a realization that Tuel is not a reasonable backup. That could change of course but IMO that's not why they brought in a 30 something journeyman. It's not about miracles with Manuel. It's about building consistency, about slowing the game down, about reading defenses, knowing your receivers. That stuff absolutely 100% does not happen in 9 games. NFL QB is the hardest job in sports, that's why there's always a shortage of good ones.

Dunno. In recent years, Luck, Dalton, Wilson, Kaepernick were drafted, and started as rookies - 3 of those players were selected in the 2nd round - and among those 4, there are a bunch of playoff appearances and wins.

[RedEyE]

Need to keep the positive vibes flowing into the matchup against the fish.