The perennial crumble continues....

[RedEyE]

I don't believe in this team.

Texans, Chiefs, Chargers, Pats = all AFC losses. 3 out of 4 happened at home
Vikes, Lions, Bears = NFC wins are meaningless to a team like the Bills who's best shot getting into the playoffs is with a wildcard.

Looking at the schedule this team would have to win the next 5 straight games to even put them in contention with the wild card. When was the last time this team won 3 consecutive games?

Orton is too old and obviously not good enough to overcome mediocrity.
The coaching staff is still inexperienced and spends more time coaching their way out of games then just putting them away.

Good teams win at home. Good teams execute to put the game out of reach when given the opportunity.

I predict a loss Thursday against the fish and at least 3 more against the Packers, Broncos, and the Patriots.

This team is 8-8 and quite possibly 7-9 at best, as I wouldn't at all be surprised with a loss against the Browns.

Season home record = 5 possibly 6 total losses at home. That's absolutely pathetic and does not indicate a new culture in my book.

The Marrone coaching era has been a routine of 3 steps forward 2 steps back.

[coastal]

At idea the level of suck the guy inherited 3 years ago?

[don137]

The only good thing that came out of yesterday is that it showed the Bills should not throw huge money at Orton. He is an upgrade over Manuel and serviceable but not worth big dollars. Rather have that than a repeat of the Fitzpatrick contract where you throw big money and then he craps the bed.

[Fletch]

I don't believe in this team.

Texans, Chiefs, Chargers, Pats = all AFC losses. 3 out of 4 happened at home
Vikes, Lions, Bears = NFC wins are meaningless to a team like the Bills who's best shot getting into the playoffs is with a wildcard.

Looking at the schedule this team would have to win the next 5 straight games to even put them in contention with the wild card. When was the last time this team won 3 consecutive games?

Orton is too old and obviously not good enough to overcome mediocrity.
The coaching staff is still inexperienced and spends more time coaching their way out of games then just putting them away.

Good teams win at home. Good teams execute to put the game out of reach when given the opportunity.

I predict a loss Thursday against the fish and at least 3 more against the Packers, Broncos, and the Patriots.

This team is 8-8 and quite possibly 7-9 at best, as I wouldn't at all be surprised with a loss against the Browns.

Season home record = 5 possibly 6 total losses at home. That's absolutely pathetic and does not indicate a new culture in my book.

The Marrone coaching era has been a routine of 3 steps forward 2 steps back.

That's been the reality all along. Losing to the Packers, Broncos, and Pats is hardly shameful. The Browns are a better team than we are too right now, I give Pettine credit, he has them playing well. Gordon gets back for our game against them too.

At the end of the day the reason for our wins has been TOs committed by our opponents and our ability to capitalize on them for scores, often on ridiculously short fields. We haven't moved the ball well or consistently and Orton struggles in the red zone, as in bottom dwelling struggling. Our running game isn't what many people thought prior to the season, Jackson's old and done, Spiller's Spiller, a role-player who's contributions are overrated, and Brown and Dixon don't appear to be anything more than low-end starting type RBs on a good day.

Our WRs also haven't stepped up and while many here thought that we had the best WRs in the league, that's clearly far from the case.

Our secondary isn't great and our entire D is going to get exposed against the better passing teams that we play coming up.

So, having said that, and in agreeing with you, what now? Where to?

Seems to me that we've all seen this movie before about 15 times. I say get an entirely new FO starting with Whaley on down, who would then replace the coaching staff.

We go into this draft without a 1st-round pick thereby hamstringing any new GM or coach. If we don't get a new GM or coach, or at least if we don't lobby for them, then maybe we have no right to complain again next season.

Either support the current FO and settle for the results, or demand improvement starting with a GM that knows what he's doing. I understand that many here, apparently most, think that trading away two of our top 4 picks in next year's draft was a smart thing to do, so that's going to impact their opinion of Whaley. But again, by not lobbying for a new GM, there isn't much room for complaining when the next round of poor judgement calls by the FO are made. Is there.

[Dr. Who]

Marrone may be in trouble if the record is bad down the stretch.
Whaley's not going anywhere, imo.

[Luisito23]

Hate to say it, but I don't even care if we lose, or win anymore.

Too many years, too many letdowns and too much the same crap.

[trapezeus]

i don't have numbers to back this up. but my gut feeling is that gailey had a more disciplined team. While the talent has slowly increased over the 2 years (specifically defensive side of the ball), the team takes a lot of penalities.

i also don't like that maronne seems to be bullied into following the other coach. on our 4th and 1, you just knew he was doing it because reid did it and had success. but he didn't have the stones to just run the play and live with the consequence. so he trotted out there the call them to jump play.

and of course, play calling is not much of an art. after kind of suckering buffalo into over pursuit and getting stuffed, reid nailed us by remaining aggressive. he almost roped us into that. our calls never rope anyone into any. if we've faltered with a play 200 times, they'll call the exact same play for the 201st time.

[RedEyE]

15 years of **** ball. Embarrassing. I'm done. Tapping out for the season. I have better things to do with my time. Tired of the suck.

Wish the fans and the Pegulas the best.

[JoeMama]

By the end of the third, I retreated to my bedroom and started singing this song to my dog.

But she's crazy. She hates it.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/waacof2saZw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[BertSquirtgum]

At idea the level of suck the guy inherited 3 years ago?

Marrone is garbage

[TacklingDummy]

Hate to say it, but I don't even care if we lose, or win anymore.

Too many years, too many letdowns and too much the same crap.

Im not sure its not caring if we win or lose.

For me it maybe I just don't care as much for football.

[better days]

The only good thing that came out of yesterday is that it showed the Bills should not throw huge money at Orton. He is an upgrade over Manuel and serviceable but not worth big dollars. Rather have that than a repeat of the Fitzpatrick contract where you throw big money and then he craps the bed.

One TD in two games says Orton is NOT an upgrade over Manuel.

Orton was no more accurate than EJ the last two games, probably more inaccurate than EJ.

[HHURRICANE]

"It's our time" to "billieve" in the fact they have been telling us this is a playoff team!

We are going to win five straight and get in!!!

I'm just ****ing with you....we suck.

[BOBM253]

These last 2 games were so typical Bills affairs. Uncanny, you expect a good game and they come out and lay an egg. I don't know what went wrong or who to blame.

[imbondz]

15 years of **** ball. Embarrassing. I'm done. Tapping out for the season. I have better things to do with my time. Tired of the suck.

Wish the fans and the Pegulas the best.

tapping out…lol!

me too. my sundays just got free

[imbondz]

I think it's time us fans take the blame. We are the sole reason for the team sucking.

[coastal]

15 years

[BertSquirtgum]

15 years

so you want to keep Maronne and make it 16 years with no playoffs. Is that what you're saying?

[Mace]

It's another year.

[BOBM253]

It seems like every time we get a decent player, they regress after a few games. Orton came in hot, now not so much. Watkins looked super great, now just average. CJ has actually gotten worse since the Gailey days. What is going on? Is it the coaching, game planning? Is there a locker room problem? Lack of leadership? On paper we look good but our performances suffer, especially in key games and get worse as the season goes on.

[Fletch]

One TD in two games says Orton is NOT an upgrade over Manuel.

Orton was no more accurate than EJ the last two games, probably more inaccurate than EJ.

That's the strange thing, he clearly is in terms of moving the ball downfield, but while Manuel was horrid overall, Orton absolutely sucks in the red zone. So why not put Manuel in once we get down there? He wasn't good there either but he was better than Orton whose taken us to 32nd down there.

I'm hardly saying that it would make us a playoff caliber team, but it would mix things up a bit and maybe at least provide some quality football. I mean WTF do they have to lose at this point.

[Fletch]

It seems like every time we get a decent player, they regress after a few games. Orton came in hot, now not so much. Watkins looked super great, now just average. CJ has actually gotten worse since the Gailey days. What is going on? Is it the coaching, game planning? Is there a locker room problem? Lack of leadership? On paper we look good but our performances suffer, especially in key games and get worse as the season goes on.

So I have to ask, but why isn't it merely a matter of fan perceptions?

Think about it. The sportswriters will tell anyone anything and it's not like stock-tipping where if you're wrong you're out of business, these guys go on for years constantly being wrong. It's one of the few professions where what one says really doesn't matter if one is far more wrong than correct.

At the beginning of the year some writer puts up a piece talking about how our RBs are elite. Even with Jackson (at 33 and the oldest RB in the league), Spiller, Brown, and Dixon are elite. I didn't think that to be anything close to the case but lots of fans bought in.

A lot of opinion here was that our WRs were among the best if not the best in the league. What basis was there for that?

Similar was said about our LBs. Our DL is good but why have they allowed 5.3 ypc, 146 ypg, and a season average 20 TDs over the last five games? Here's a clue, over the last five games we've actually faced starting caliber RBs. In five of the first 6 games we did not and the one game that we did, Chicago, they put up more yards than anyone overall and Forte averaged 4.8 ypc. So is it more perceptions amongst fans, or reality that our DL is great? I say it's very good but I still think that they're overemphasizing the pass rush this season. Our rushing game the last four weeks has been bottom-dwelling, literally paced for 32nd in both ypg and ypc. So why are we still talking about how great our run D is when it's fallen from 1st to 11th during that stretch? Who really thinks that it's not going to fall into the below average range with the offensive teams that we have to face coming up?

Every season over the last 10+ years this happens, the perceptions among fans goes from similar to what it was this year in years 1 & 2 of a coaching era to this, where everyone's once again talking about firing everyone, never watching the team the rest of this year or ever again. What's the common thread in all of that given that it happens every season? Something just didn't go right? Or fans' perceptions? I think we know the answer if we're going to be honest, don't you?

The big difference and point of contention among posters here seems to be that some fans can see this at the beginning of the season too which means that they don't have the same perception issues as others. Nothing wrong with deluding oneself from a fan perspective, but there is in slamming people that refuse to delude themselves as happens here routinely every season and even during the offseason.

[BOBM253]

You may be on to something. Maybe we're not as good as we think we are. In the beginning we surprise some teams and then regress back to the mean? Orton caught some teams by surprise earlier and now teams are on to him and us.

[pmoon6]

The only good thing that came out of yesterday is that it showed the Bills should not throw huge money at Orton. He is an upgrade over Manuel and serviceable but not worth big dollars. Rather have that than a repeat of the Fitzpatrick contract where you throw big money and then he craps the bed.The other good thing is that it's more and more apparent what kind of douchebag fanbase we have.

Bills' fans don't even give a coach three years anymore. If it doesn't look like they'll make the playoffs halfway through their second season, they roll out the guillotines.

[Fletch]

You may be on to something. Maybe we're not as good as we think we are. In the beginning we surprise some teams and then regress back to the mean? Orton caught some teams by surprise earlier and now teams are on to him and us.

Well, we're clearly not nearly as good as many posters here claimed that we were in the beginning of the season and in preseason. The question then becomes what's likely changed, how good the team really is? If not that then the only thing it can possibly be is those perceptions.

Happens every season. Same phases of grieving as it were, it mirrors that Kubler-Ross model of the 5 stages of grief. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.

Denial & Anger kinda go together here in the forum. We have what many here divide us by, "realists" and "optimists" or sometimes called "homers." The "realists" simply want to discuss the team in an open and honest manner and have some discussion. the "optimists" just won't have any of it. There's lots of anger targeted towards the "realists" here in the early going and offseason from the Draft 'til the next phase. There's little tolerance for opinions other than those favored by those levying harsh criticism towards those that are not as optimistic. There's statements that all that the "realists" care about is "being right" as if the people claiming that say things without any implication that what they say is correct too. In other words there's an implication that what they say they don't think is entirely true and that they don't think that they're right when they call others out, which is ridiculous. Who bothers offering an opinion if they don't think it's true whether it has any basis or not.

Then we go on to the bargaining phase which in football forum terms is the excuse-making phase. Things haven't progressed according to the perceptions so there must be a reason for it besides that those perceptions were simply way off base to begin with. Clearly the "realists" couldn't have been right, so it's gotta be something else and it damn sure isn't that those that levied the harshest criticisms were wrong, we can't have that now. That's right up there with their perceptions of the team being wrong and for the time being they know that's not the case. So it's usually injuries, or lopsided and biased officiating, or the NFL hates us if it's a schedule thing, or whatever, anything but that the perceptions were wrong.

Then we go into the depression phase. In this phase from a football forum perspective there's still talk of turning things around and mathematical chances with some people still seemingly thinking that our chances of making the playoffs are still relatively decent despite the opposite actually being the case. Doubts begin to become expressed and eventually people start saying that they're finished with the team, won't ever watch again, won't watch anymore games this season, and they start talking about the issues of the team in a more "realistic" manner. There's still some anger interspersed throughout this phase. This is when some of the "optimistic" ones begin recognizing that their perceptions were inflated to one degree or another. Some of course just play it off as if they knew the team wasn't very good at all and deny that they ever thought that the team would be better than it really is.

Then we get to the acceptance phase, until the offseason that is. Most people accept the reality since it's blatant at that point. There's some anger, in some cases much anger that plays out in statements of everyone needing to be fired, burn down the building at OBD, and the like.

If it's not the end of the 3rd year of a new GM or coach then as the offseason progresses the whole cycle starts over again the moment we sign some free agents and then of course some of draft picks are the best players out there. We're in year two now and there are a number of people still supporting Whaley, Marrone, etc. They seem to think that the assistants and scouting staff are more to blame or something. The statements once again begin anew of average players all of a sudden being the ones that are going to make huge impacts for us the following season. For drafted players any negative press is almost completely ignored and only positive articles are posted and people begin to believe things just because they've been said often enough even though many of those things weren't weighed against the "realities."

It's a real mindboggling thing to watch repeat itself season after season. pmoon6 epitomizes several aspects of this all tidily summed up in a single post above this one. It's quite predictable to within a couple of weeks exactly when the next phase will begin phasing in.

[BertSquirtgum]

The other good thing is that it's more and more apparent what kind of douchebag fanbase we have.

Bills' fans don't even give a coach three years anymore. If it doesn't look like they'll make the playoffs halfway through their second season, they roll out the guillotines.

It's much more than not making the playoffs. We've seen this same movie with Jauron. Only this time it's worse because Moron makes Jauron look like he was an aggressive head coach.

[swiper]

The other good thing is that it's more and more apparent what kind of douchebag fanbase we have.

Bills' fans don't even give a coach three years anymore. If it doesn't look like they'll make the playoffs halfway through their second season, they roll out the guillotines.

Sometimes is just very obvious to astute observers that the coach and most of the staff are garbage based on what's going on out on the field. There is no automatic, magical 3 year mark. This coach is garbage and he's losing this team. Sorry you can't see that after all the years you've claimed you've watched football.

[BertSquirtgum]

It's sad to say but Jauron made the team look decent with the **** he was fed from Marv Levy. He may have actually had a decent chance if he was given more than below average talent.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

I don't believe in this team.

Texans, Chiefs, Chargers, Pats = all AFC losses. 3 out of 4 happened at home
Vikes, Lions, Bears = NFC wins are meaningless to a team like the Bills who's best shot getting into the playoffs is with a wildcard.

Looking at the schedule this team would have to win the next 5 straight games to even put them in contention with the wild card. When was the last time this team won 3 consecutive games?

Orton is too old and obviously not good enough to overcome mediocrity.
The coaching staff is still inexperienced and spends more time coaching their way out of games then just putting them away.

Good teams win at home. Good teams execute to put the game out of reach when given the opportunity.

I predict a loss Thursday against the fish and at least 3 more against the Packers, Broncos, and the Patriots.

This team is 8-8 and quite possibly 7-9 at best, as I wouldn't at all be surprised with a loss against the Browns.

Season home record = 5 possibly 6 total losses at home. That's absolutely pathetic and does not indicate a new culture in my book.

The Marrone coaching era has been a routine of 3 steps forward 2 steps back.

I am not all that disappointed in us. I picked 5-11 before the season began and sadly its looking like that is about where we will end up with perhaps 2 or three more wins. This team is probably going to go 7-9 and the reason for this is that our management, new ownership and HC aside, do not know how to build winners. We need an OL and we need a qb that can get us points. The problem with EJ and Kyle is that they are good backups. Kyle, like Fitz and so many of our qbs before him, is a pinch hitter. We don't have a qb that can take control of a game. I think we have some of the pieces in place. The Defense and kicking teams are pretty good, but our OL stinks. Also, Hackett is a joke.

[swiper]

You know things have gotten bad when fans are suggesting Jauron was better.

[swiper]

You've heard of the Mendoza line in baseball?

The Bills have the Dick line. It's 7-9.

[stuckincincy]

I don't believe in this team.



It's crumbled since Cookie left in 1965.

[DynaPaul]

I think it's time us fans take the blame. We are the sole reason for the team sucking.

Because we haven't rioted at 1 Bills Drive and lynched Brandon yet? Because we still have an awesome attendance record despite all those years of losing?

[Fletch]

Because we haven't rioted at 1 Bills Drive and lynched Brandon yet? Because we still have an awesome attendance record despite all those years of losing?

I think he probably meant because we always buy into whatever OBD does, or most of us do, even when the decisions smack of questionability, instead of being far more critical.

[pmoon6]

Sometimes is just very obvious to astute observers that the coach and most of the staff are garbage based on what's going on out on the field. There is no automatic, magical 3 year mark. This coach is garbage and he's losing this team. Sorry you can't see that after all the years you've claimed you've watched football.Speculation and supposition. But, keep polishing your knob, Mr. "Astute Observer". You bees so super smart.

Oh, and **** you with "claimed".

[pmoon6]

I love it when we drop a couple of games and see the true content of alot of fans' character.

[BertSquirtgum]

I love it when we drop a couple of games and see the true content of alot of fans' character.

Crying little girls with too many ingrown pussy hairs.

I love grumpy old men crying about other men crying.

[swiper]

I love it when we drop a couple of games and see the true content of alot of fans' character.

Crying little girls with too many ingrown pussy hairs.

Get with the times. Girls shave those things now.

[Fletch]

Get with the times. Girls shave those things now.

those things

LOL

[better days]

I love it when we drop a couple of games and see the true content of alot of fans' character.

Crying little girls with too many ingrown pussy hairs.

Well, I am not *****ing about Marrone because the Bills lost to KC & Miami.

I am *****ing about Marrone because he says he wants to play the players that will help the team win & then he refuses to play Urbik & Mike Williams.

It was clear to all that Urbik improved the OL after Marrone finally put him on the field & it should be clear to all that the Bills need Mike Williams on the field at least in the red zone.

[coastal]

Moonie's going to show us all how to be real fans doncha know.

And then he has the nerve to accuse people of "douchebaggery".

Just beyond gay.

[swiper]

Moonie's going to show us all how to be real fans doncha know.

And then he has the nerve to accuse people of "douchebaggery".

Just beyond gay.

Said the guy who would "most like to meet" him.

- - - Updated - - -

Are the 49ers on national television Sunday or are you going surfing?

[pmoon6]

Moonie's going to show us all how to be real fans doncha know.

And then he has the nerve to accuse people of "douchebaggery".

Just beyond gay.What's really gay is you and your metrosexual ilk.

My intention is not to "show you how to be a real fan".

It's to try to get you to salvage what's left of your manhood before you become total fops.

Maybe technology can figure out how to reattach your testicles. That's if your wives let the doctors take them out of their purses.

[BertSquirtgum]

What's really gay is you and your metrosexual ilk.

My intention is not to "show you how to be a real fan".

It's to try to get you to salvage what's left of your manhood before you become total fops.

Maybe technology can figure out how to reattach your testicles. That's if your wives let the doctors take them out of their purses.

:limp:

[better days]

The only good thing that came out of yesterday is that it showed the Bills should not throw huge money at Orton. He is an upgrade over Manuel and serviceable but not worth big dollars. Rather have that than a repeat of the Fitzpatrick contract where you throw big money and then he craps the bed.

Thank God Orton did not play great the rest of this year only to get a big money contract & then revert to his normal mediocre self next year.