The Marrone dilemma

[mightysimi]

I keep hearing in virtually every other thread that all of our players suck so if they all suck doesn't it stand to reason that Marrone is getting the most out of these guys which shows in a winning record (so far)? I'm not down on Marrone and Whaley as some are. I think he has done a serviceable job and that he continues to grow and learn. I think he will become a better coach. Plus, I am so sick of changing coaches/systems every few years.

Even Whaley who some have criticized for making the Watkins trade IMO has done reasonably well. I also think the last few drafts have been very productive past the first round (Woods, Alonso, Brown).

There is no doubt that we have more talent/depth top to bottom than at any time in the past decade. Picking up Dixon/Brown now seems like a good move considering the health of our other RB's. Whaley might have panicked when he made the move for Watkins but at least the player is going to turn out to be good maybe even great. The last few times we traded up haven't exactly set the league on fire.

I'm sure I'm the minority here but I'm for Whaley and Marrone to stay.

[Fixxxer]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

They should stay and if Pegula is smart he sits down with both Whaley and Marrone and convince them that the offense needs to get better and that they can count with the resources needed to make it happen.

[Fletch]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

I keep hearing in virtually every other thread that all of our players suck so if they all suck doesn't it stand to reason that Marrone is getting the most out of these guys which shows in a winning record (so far)? I'm not down on Marrone and Whaley as some are. I think he has done a serviceable job and that he continues to grow and learn. I think he will become a better coach. Plus, I am so sick of changing coaches/systems every few years.

Even Whaley who some have criticized for making the Watkins trade IMO has done reasonably well. I also think the last few drafts have been very productive past the first round (Woods, Alonso, Brown).

There is no doubt that we have more talent/depth top to bottom than at any time in the past decade. Picking up Dixon/Brown now seems like a good move considering the health of our other RB's. Whaley might have panicked when he made the move for Watkins but at least the player is going to turn out to be good maybe even great. The last few times we traded up haven't exactly set the league on fire.

I'm sure I'm the minority here but I'm for Whaley and Marrone to stay.

Here's the thing, and there are going to be a whole bunch of personal attacks after I post this, but think about what Whaley has done. Might help by listing it all one way (positive) or the other (negative).

What were Whaley's credentials prior to being lured away from Pittsburgh? For starters, he was in a much lesser role and people here and the media made a mountain out of that in pre-assessing him as the next great GM in the league. OK, fine, but if he was that responsible for all of Pittsburgh's good moves in a significantly lesser role there, usually simply a scout, then why doesn't he take the heat for the team's moves here in a role as Asst. GM and Director of Pro Personnel and finally as GM here? I mean he's been the top dog for personnel since 2010. People can say otherwise, but what they can't do is tout his credentials in some lesser role elsewhere while dismissing all the failures in those roles here.

But I'll refresh our memory as to our records since 2010 despite it not being necessary: 4-12, 6-10, 6-10, 6-10, and what, 7-9 likely, 8-8 tops this season? Our situation with him in charge of player personnel moves has not changed significantly in five seasons.

Either way, yes, he's made some good moves, but so has every GM. He's also lost some players that set team records here and allowed them to leave disrupting chemistry here. It takes more than having brought a couple of good players on board. Many GMs do that. But the overall direction hasn't really improved, and at the most key position we're among the worst teams at QB. Our offense is currently scoring no more points than last season's anemic offense.

There have been gains and losses here on Whaley's watch but the team's overall performance hasn't changed much. We're no more competitive this season than we've been over the last three, and for those arguing that we are if so it's not significant the extent to which we might arguably be.

But Whaley took a swing and whiffed big time on Manuel, which not only costs us but also questions his judgment, especially given the wealth of info out there, now having been acknowledged by this forum, on why Manuel would never pan out in the NFL.

Then he tries to cover his ass by sending next year's 1st and 4th to get Watkins, who has not even significantly distinguished himself from the rookie WR competition to the extent required for such a move. He's invisible in this team's biggest games. He'll be a fine WR, but we have to question Whaley's judgement on the method used to acquire him and seriously ask the question whether or not we'd have been better off with one of the other WRs that's put up comparable numbers and with our 1st and 4th still in tact for this upcoming season.

Either way, what's he gonna do this offseason without a 1st? Right now the odds are probably greatest that we finish 7-9 and if so then the draft pick will likely be in that 10th -13th range again. Only slightly lower if we can somehow manage 8-8. What are we going to do for a QB for next season much less a starting 3-down RB, and some other key positions?

Whaley's also the one that hired Marrone who in turn hired Hackett, I'm sure a point of discussion in the interview between Whaley and Marrone.

I've seen enough. You can't just pull out the positives, particularly with such monumental failures as Manuel. I also think that the reality of losing our 1st next season, much less a 1st and a mid-4th now too, is really going to hit home come draft time and if Watkins doesn't start putting some performance distance between himself and the rest of the WR rookies. Again, not that I don't want him to, I'd love it, but I don't think he's even going to get OROY honors.

Whaley's move have been a wash. That's not good for a 6-10 team. There is no evidence that he's ever going to "get it."

Those supporting Whaley and lobbying for him to stay here have no basis for complaining if/when we still don't make the playoffs next season. No one can say "yeah, but he didn't have a 1st rounder" because that's of his own making. There aren't any good QB options in free agency this offseason either. The prospects for us for next season are not good and it's because of Whaley and his decision making, not in spite of him and his decision making.

He's whiffed on both Manuel and Marrone and in attempting to cover his tracks on the former has now left us without a 1st round pick this upcoming draft. I don't know what bigger disasters he can possibly make. He even recognizes the impact of his decision on Manuel and even concedes as much that he should be looking for new work giving his having reached for Manuel like that last year. Just watch the video in my sig. So why does anyone argue with him on that? It makes no sense, even Whaley agrees and understands that.

[Fletch]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

They should stay and if Pegula is smart he sits down with both Whaley and Marrone and convince them that the offense needs to get better and that they can count with the resources needed to make it happen.

What resources have we got for this offseason?

Why only those?

[Typ0]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

Maroone and Whaley were bumping heads in training camp and at practices. If those conversations were about Manual starting and the need for another QB ... and then Orton starting over Manual Whaley needs to be shown the door. We hear more from Marone. I am not a fan of firing a guy every two or three years because they haven't gotten it done. I can see this is a decent football team -- even a team on the verge of being very competitive. Bringing another new staff in to switch systems again is counter productive. If we are going to do that they better have access to and be prepared to hire a top tier coach.

[WagonCircler]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

Even Whaley who some have criticized for making the Watkins trade IMO has done reasonably well. I also think the last few drafts have been very productive past the first round (Woods, Alonso, Brown).

There is no doubt that we have more talent/depth top to bottom than at any time in the past decade. Picking up Dixon/Brown now seems like a good move considering the health of our other RB's. Whaley might have panicked when he made the move for Watkins but at least the player is going to turn out to be good maybe even great. The last few times we traded up haven't exactly set the league on fire.

I'm sure I'm the minority here but I'm for Whaley and Marrone to stay.

Remember in the Godfather, when Michael waited patiently, then settled all family business? He went to visit Carlo, who set up Sonny to be murdered.

"You have to answer for Santino, Carlo."

Well, Whaley needs to answer for Manuel.

Sure, Whaley has done some good things, but he has also done disastrous things, especially with high draft choices.

For decades, we've had to settle for mediocre coaches and executives, with notable few exceptions, in this franchise, thanks to an owner who was notoriously cheap when it came to paying for coaches and executives.

Now we have an owner who will back up the Brinks truck to get the best people available.

It's time we took advantage of that. We've waited 50 years.

We no longer have to settle for mediocrity.

[Fletch]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

Maroone and Whaley were bumping heads in training camp and at practices. If those conversations were about Manual starting and the need for another QB ... and then Orton starting over Manual Whaley needs to be shown the door. We hear more from Marone. I am not a fan of firing a guy every two or three years because they haven't gotten it done. I can see this is a decent football team -- even a team on the verge of being very competitive. Bringing another new staff in to switch systems again is counter productive. If we are going to do that they better have access to and be prepared to hire a top tier coach.

I'm not a fan of firing coaches or GMs every two years either, but when they suck there's even less reason to keep them around.

What's the root problem here, a lack of patience, or poor hires to begin with?

I'd suggest the latter.

It's a new era, most of us realize that this front office which has lingered on because of personal relationships with Wilson is the primary problem. What better time to cut ties with the bunch and start over than a new era. This offseason is Pegula's chance. There's nothing redeemable in the front office and Marrone has not shown anything close enough to warrant giving him another shot next season, especially with the same QB issues since we have no 1st-round pick. Even with a rookie QB he's not going to do much. Not that a new coach will, but at least the new coach gets to use the season to rebuild.

This perpetual state of rebuilding weighs heavily on us all. It's time to finally have something built, which obviously isn't going to happen with Whaley running the show or Marrone coaching.

[Fletch]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

Remember in the Godfather, when Michael waited patiently, then settled all family business? He went to visit Carlo, who set up Sonny to be murdered.

"You have to answer for Santino, Carlo."

Well, Whaley needs to answer for Manuel.

Sure, Whaley has done some good things, but he has also done disastrous things, especially with high draft choices.

For decades, we've had to settle for mediocre coaches and executives, with notable few exceptions, in this franchise, thanks to an owner who was notoriously cheap when it came to paying for coaches and executives.

Now we have an owner who will back up the Brinks truck to get the best people available.

It's time we took advantage of that. We've waited 50 years.

We no longer have to settle for mediocrity.

Nicely put!

[DesertFox24]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

Lets fire Whaley and Marrone because of Manuel. WOW.

Whaley got us Jerry Hughes and some other very good players in the draft.

Marrone is a good coach whom other teams wanted to hire.... That is a first for us

Same with Whaley he had other offers to leave and go to other teams... Lets fire another guy people respect in the league.

No I want them to stay this year and see what they do with Pegula in charge, I want to see how our Free Agency is different and what they do with our players coming up.

Spiller is gone fine.

I want Hughes and Dareus locked up, they do that I am happy.

As for the offense not being good enough we dominated a very good Chiefs defense. Orton was off and the brown fumble chandler dropped hurt.

i get you guys are pissed about the possibility of 15 years of no playoffs but you need to remove that emotion from your decision making process. A new GM and coaching staff is not going to be a quick fix because they are going to want different players and different styles of play. As a result it will set us back and then you will want to fire him because he took a very talented team this year and got ride of players and they lost.

Marrone and Whaley have been in charge for 25 games and guess what we have gotten better. Staying the course is sometimes the best course.

[The King]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

GM's miss on QB's all the time. It's the hardest transition to predict. Drafting Manuel didn't kill us because we traded back and got Kiko in the process. That's the sign of a pretty good GM IMO.

The team desperately needed a QB his hand was forced in that regard, he took a gamble but lessened the blow by getting some value back. I don't want to fire the guy for one mistake I want to see how he responds.

Unless we have a HOF coach knocking down our door to coach this team… which we don't. I want to see both guys get another year.

[mightysimi]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

I would put this roster up against any of the past 13 years. How is none of that Whaley's doing? I'm not saying he is perfect, I just think what most fans care about (QB's and 1st round picks) which are front and centre in this debate. Many, many GMs (and some good ones) missed on QBs, sometimes more than once. Manuel was a bad pick. That is obvious. What would have been worse was not getting the second round pick and Alonso.

I also don't think that Marrone was a bad hire. I think he has shown at times to be a little out of his element but I don't think there is any debating that he is improved from last year. I think the players like playing for him and play hard for him. Now Hackett has been Marrone's hire. There are some good things about the offence though. I don't think it's the plays that are the problem. I do think it is execution that is most of the problem. Hackett's playcall had both Chandler and Woods open in the end zone but Orton missed them. The overall playcalling I would give a B-

The biggest thing for me is that I think this team is close. The D is real good and will only get better with Kiko back. The O is young and should develop. Changing to a high profile coach who has an established system will put us back another 3 years waiting for the right guys to get drafted and fit into the coach's new system.

Even if we get a new coach, if he doesn't immediately turn into Belicheck, people here will want to fire him anyways.

Now for a prediction I think that they survive the year if only to not put a new coach and GM in a hole without the 1st round pick to get a player for their new system.

[Fletch]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

Lets fire Whaley and Marrone because of Manuel. WOW.

The irony here is that Whaley himself recognized the circumstances under which he drafted Manuel. Have you watched the brief video in my sig?

He understands that given the reach to get Manuel and given that as he is on record as admitting, that he was the one responsible for that pick, that if it didn't work out he should be looking for new work.

Meanwhile you support Whaley but disagree with him on the very point that you are insisting.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Fletch]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

I would put this roster up against any of the past 13 years.

What do we have on offense? No RBs. Jackson's finished. Spiller's likely and hopefully gone. He creates more issues than he solves. Brown? Dixon? Unlike at the beginning of the season, who's lobbying now that our RBs are elite or that Brown is our future starting RB? He isn't a 3-down RB either. We don't have one with Jackson not being capable anymore.

At WR we have Watkins. Woods isn't stepping up as he should be. Hogan's OK but hardly lighting up the NFL, an OK slot guy.

TE we have nothing special. OL has similar issues to what we've had for years. We always seem to be two OL-men short regardless of where they are on the line.

DL is good as its been for a while. LBs are OK but clearly struggle in passing situations. That should become more clear as the season goes on. Our secondary isn't very good.

Not seeing it. It may be better, but not by much if it even is. Our defensive rankings have been steadily dropping over the past few weeks. That's not going to stop happening with the offensive teams we face coming up. The D may be better but our offense is pushing how bad it was when Edwards was the QB.

Now for a prediction I think that they survive the year if only to not put a new coach and GM in a hole without the 1st round pick to get a player for their new system.

Maybe, and perhaps they deserve to be put into that situation.

I don't think it's going to matter one way or another next season, I think that if they're not fired after this season then they will be after next. So I guess with the turning of the ownership page I just don't see any reasons to drag that out.

If they can put us in the playoffs with our issues at RB, QB, and WR without a 1st round pick and few options in free agency, great. I just have no faith and the opportunity for Pegula to have made his mark and separated the past from the future will be forever gone.

[Fixxxer]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

What resources have we got for this offseason?

Why only those?

Resources that an owner gives his GM, a better OC for starters and better positional coaches maybe. With cap resources, re-signing Dareus and Hughes and get better up front in the OL.

[mightysimi]

Re: The Marrone dilemma

What do we have on offense? No RBs. Jackson's finished. Spiller's likely and hopefully gone. He creates more issues than he solves. Brown? Dixon? Unlike at the beginning of the season, who's lobbying now that our RBs are elite or that Brown is our future starting RB? He isn't a 3-down RB either. We don't have one with Jackson not being capable anymore.

At WR we have Watkins. Woods isn't stepping up as he should be. Hogan's OK but hardly lighting up the NFL, an OK slot guy.

TE we have nothing special. OL has similar issues to what we've had for years. We always seem to be two OL-men short regardless of where they are on the line.

DL is good as its been for a while. LBs are OK but clearly struggle in passing situations. That should become more clear as the season goes on. Our secondary isn't very good.

Not seeing it. It may be better, but not by much if it even is. Our defensive rankings have been steadily dropping over the past few weeks. That's not going to stop happening with the offensive teams we face coming up. The D may be better but our offense is pushing how bad it was when Edwards was the QB.

What I mean in a game this roster wins against any of the others. IMO anyways.

The O line is a mess. They went for bigger but I don't think they thought they would be sacrificing every edge play because no one can pull. Can be servicible with at least 1 OG. WR's are young. They will get better. TE, say what you want about Chandler I think most teams would take 500 yards and 6 TD's from their TE. Could he be upgraded, absolutely. Is he better than the last 5 Jabronies before him. Oh yeah.

The DL is excellent. The LB's aren't bad. I really like the sounds of Alonso, Brown and Bradham. I think Spikes is gone. You are right about bad in coverage though. Although Kiko will help in that regard. The secondary is tough. I think Gilmore is gun shy because of all the penalties he got early on and I think no one is more suprised than him that he has 4 picks because McKelvin can't even catch a cold. A. Williams is a good safety if he's on the field but I do think they need another guy there. Not sold on Searcy or Duke.

So going back to my original point, if all of those players are bad/below average, doesn't that mean that Marrone is doing a good job of coaching up a bunch of cans?