Looks like the Bills will make a QB play early in draft

[ghz in pittsburgh]

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https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/713879315436421120/QL9eLouX_bigger.jpgMike Rodak ‏@mikerodak (https://twitter.com/mikerodak)<small class="time" style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(136, 153, 166);"> 5h5 hours ago (https://twitter.com/mikerodak/status/717711066231414785)</small>
Who took QB Paxton Lynch to dinner last night? That would be the Buffalo Bills, ESPN’s Sal Paolantonio reports. OC Greg Roman in Memphis.







There seems to be a philosophy change in that regard. Just from interviews, I heard Whaley stating drafting QA every year is one way of doing it. Think about, Tyrod is arguably one of the most promising QB the Bills had for years, and the organization is NOT simply hitching its wagon onto him. Instead they have interviewed QB prospects left and right.

[X-Era]

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https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/713879315436421120/QL9eLouX_bigger.jpgMike Rodak ‏@mikerodak (https://twitter.com/mikerodak)<small class="time" style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(136, 153, 166);"> 5h5 hours ago (https://twitter.com/mikerodak/status/717711066231414785)</small>
Who took QB Paxton Lynch to dinner last night? That would be the Buffalo Bills, ESPN’s Sal Paolantonio reports. OC Greg Roman in Memphis.






There seems to be a philosophy change in that regard. Just from interviews, I heard Whaley stating drafting QA every year is one way of doing it. Think about, Tyrod is arguably one of the most promising QB the Bills had for years, and the organization is NOT simply hitching its wagon onto him. Instead they have interviewed QB prospects left and right.
I don't know if I could go so far as to say that this year is different than any other... Sending your OC to watch QB prospects is not atypical in any year whether you need a QB or not. The dinner is likely because they see Lynch as a prospect that could potentially be there at 19 that they may have interest in. I'm not sure that's different than any other player at any other position in play at 19.

I think Lynch is on our radar and I'm pretty sure we will draft a QB at some point. But none of this makes Lynch anything other than a guy in the mix at 19... There are many others at other positions that are more likely.

[The Jokeman]

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https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/713879315436421120/QL9eLouX_bigger.jpgMike Rodak ‏@mikerodak (https://twitter.com/mikerodak)<small class="time" style="font-size: 13px; color: rgb(136, 153, 166);"> 5h5 hours ago (https://twitter.com/mikerodak/status/717711066231414785)</small>
Who took QB Paxton Lynch to dinner last night? That would be the Buffalo Bills, ESPN’s Sal Paolantonio reports. OC Greg Roman in Memphis.







There seems to be a philosophy change in that regard. Just from interviews, I heard Whaley stating drafting QA every year is one way of doing it. Think about, Tyrod is arguably one of the most promising QB the Bills had for years, and the organization is NOT simply hitching its wagon onto him. Instead they have interviewed QB prospects left and right.

I'm not big on Lynch as a prospect yet most regard him as 3rd best QB prospect in the draft. I have no problem entertaining the idea of drafting him if he's there as I am not sold on Tyrod long term. As had a feeeling we would take a QB in first three rounds yet I'd prefer Conner Cook in Round 2. That said entertaining Lynch might lead team like Denver to trading up and grab him from us.

[X-Era]

I'm not big on Lynch as a prospect yet most regard him as 3rd best QB prospect in the draft. I have no problem entertaining the idea of drafting him if he's there as I am not sold on Tyrod long term. As had a feeeling we would take a QB in first three rounds yet I'd prefer Conner Cook in Round 2. That said entertaining Lynch might lead team like Denver to trading up and grab him from us.Well the upside is that if I can get him to wear #23 I can re-use some old jerseys.

[trapezeus]

taking an Offensive player in round 1 will be a head scratcher. the team's d is weaker than it ended the year. the d needs a lb to qb the defense. we technically have a qb that did well statistically. he has to stay healthy and he has to get better in closer games and reducing 3 and outs. not out of the question.

I just don't see a no brainer qb in this draft. if you don't, then don't take one in round 1. a guy you don't trust starting for your team can be found later.

[Skooby]

taking an Offensive player in round 1 will be a head scratcher. the team's d is weaker than it ended the year. the d needs a lb to qb the defense. we technically have a qb that did well statistically. he has to stay healthy and he has to get better in closer games and reducing 3 and outs. not out of the question.

I just don't see a no brainer qb in this draft. if you don't, then don't take one in round 1. a guy you don't trust starting for your team can be found later.Brilliant. We have a pro bowl QB (9th choice but still), so why do we need a QB early ?

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I just have the feeling that Pegula may have a bigger impact than we know. Unlike all of us fans, they just bought the team so they may not have that urgent feeling of doing all you can to squeeze into playoff. They are not blind; the kind of value added to a franchise with a franchise QB is easy to see.

Having said that, I don't believe they tell Whaley to draft Lynch in particular, but they may have pushed to put "getting that guy at QB" at a much higher priority as the overall franchise direction.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Tyrod deserves competition but I don't see the mid-late first round as the place to get it.

[swiper]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/PaxtonLynch">@PaxtonLynch</a> LAUNCHED this perfectly placed deep ball at his pro day.<br><br>&quot;That&#39;s a showoff throw right there.&quot; <a href="https://t.co/tPDhcIbtKt">https://t.co/tPDhcIbtKt</a></p>&mdash; NFL (@NFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/NFL/status/717757271233564672">April 6, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[swiper]

Brilliant. We have a pro bowl QB (9th choice but still), so why do we need a QB early ?

I love fans that post and don't know what they're talking about like you two. No one had a book on Taylor at the beginning of the season. He clearly worsened as the year came along. Now that teams have tape on him, they will shut him down next season. See Colin Kaepernik.

LBers are a dime a dozen. QBs are not.

[sudzy]

It's been how long since the Bills had a franchise QB? And people are *****ing about drafting one early? I like Taylor, but, if there is a QB there that is a good value, you draft him. It the most important position on the field.

[Skooby]

Note the draft position for Lynch, lets drop back and get a 2nd / 5th(4th if possible).

[Ed]

If Lynch is so good and a franchise qb, why would he be available at #19? I don't see a team with a huge need at qb like the Rams passing on Lynch if the potential to be legit is there.

[swiper]

Who's to say the Jets don't take him in the first?


The good news for the Bills is, they’re picking a spot ahead of their division-rival Jets, who also have some interest in a quarterback for down the road, whether they end up signing Ryan Fitzpatrick (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3240/ryan-fitzpatrick) or not.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/04/06/bills-are-on-the-list-of-teams-turning-over-every-quarterback-rock/

- - - Updated - - -


If Lynch is so good and a franchise qb, why would he be available at #19? I don't see a team with a huge need at qb like the Rams passing on Lynch if the potential to be legit is there.

Rams will take whichever of Wendt/Goff that is left on the board by the Browns.

[Ed]

Who's to say the Jets don't take him in the first?



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/04/06/bills-are-on-the-list-of-teams-turning-over-every-quarterback-rock/

- - - Updated - - -



Rams will take whichever of Wendt/Goff that is left on the board by the Browns.

So the 9ers don't need a qb anymore? Every mock I've seen has both Wentz and Goff going in the top 10.

[sudzy]

If Lynch is so good and a franchise qb, why would he be available at #19? I don't see a team with a huge need at qb like the Rams passing on Lynch if the potential to be legit is there.

Because no franchise QB has ever made it past 19? Aaron Rodgers? And that's just the first name that popped in my head. I'm sure I could come up with a big list if I felt like spending 5 minutes on it.

[EDS]

Cardale Jones is making a visit to B-lo.

[justasportsfan]

If the bills draft Paxton, I wouldn't blame them. We're still loking for Kelly's replacement. A top OL , Dt ,etc isn't going to mean anything if you don't have a franchise qb. As the patriots who keep winning without a Wilfork, Revis etc.

The Ravens D when they won a sb or last years broncos D that won them a sb does not happen often. A franchise qb like Brady will make us their beeyotch often.

The only thing I worry about Paxton is that he sounds like a white version of EJ coming out . A project with all the physical tools . Plus the very same people that scouted Ej are the same ones that are scouting Paxton. I just hope that Buddy Nix was the reason Whaley was forced to pull the trigger on EJ

[Yasgur's Farm]

1983 Jim Kelly #14 and Dan Marino #27... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_NFL_draft#Round_one

[justasportsfan]

taking an Offensive player in round 1 will be a head scratcher. the team's d is weaker than it ended the year. the d needs a lb to qb the defense. we technically have a qb that did well statistically. he has to stay healthy and he has to get better in closer games and reducing 3 and outs. not out of the question.

I just don't see a no brainer qb in this draft. if you don't, then don't take one in round 1. a guy you don't trust starting for your team can be found later.


If the coaches are not sure about Tyrod then you find a qb. If you're not sure that Tyrod can fix his short to medium range game, you draft a qb. All Tyrod has shown in his passing game it that he can throw deep to Watkins. Kinda like JP did with Lee ;) .

[DesertFox24]

Bills will be smart to hedge their bet that Tyrod is not the long term answer. He had a great year and is the unquestioned starter rightfully so, but are any of us convinced he is the franchise QB at this point. At this point we do not have a franchise guy and if we are sitting there at 19 and the bills think a franchise QB is available they have to take him. If Tyrod becomes a stud and we have a first rounder that is great we can get some value maybe. What would be worse is taking a player at any other position and the QB we pass at 19 becomes an elite QB and tyrod flames out. The good thing is we have 8 picks and this draft is deep where we need it to be deep.

[Mace]

I'll be real upset if they roll the dice on a QB early.

There's this myth people get consumed with about "franchise" QB's, must be a franchise QB if you take him early. Truth is, QB's are taken early yearly and you aren't seeing them become dominant. Most often they flail, dangle around a while and fade.

Andrew Luck, "franchise" QB has feasted on a weak division. Outside of it, he's around .500, and he's about the surest thing to come out of college in a while. He's not a dominant game controlling QB yet, going on his 4th year.

Here's a search of 1st & 2nd round QB's to chew on : http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1970&year_max=2015&type=&round_min=1&round_max=2&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=&pos_new=qb&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all&order_by=
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1970&year_max=2015&type=&round_min=1&round_max=2&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=&pos_new=qb&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all&order_by=)
Browse the list to 2005 and you find 15 of 43 names that started 48 games (3 seasons) or more, 2 that won Super Bowls, and even among the 15 are Chad Henne, Tarvaris Jackson, Vince Young, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Sam Bradford & Ryan Tannehill.

Legitimate "franchise" QB's ? I'd say Aaron Rodgers, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Andy Dalton, Matt Stafford, Andrew Luck, and Cam Newton give their teams no immediate worries at the position. That's 8 of 43 over 10 years.

Of the 1st round picks, you see names like Manziel, Weeden, Bortles, Griffin, Locker, Ponder, Tebow, Jamarcus, Leinart, Quinn and Jason Campbell, all thought to be franchise QB's.

No one should be thinking that an early QB is a "franchise" QB. Most often they aren't and that's a pick you just blew on a potential impact player.

Oh, almost forgot. One more "franchise" QB drafted by the current GM in round 1. EJ Manuel.

If they take a QB from this current crop in round one, I'll be unhappy.

[sudzy]

Tyrod played well last year, but, there was no film on him gong into last year. QBs like Kaepernick have had big years before defenses caught up to them. He's the starting QB next year and we'll go from there. I wouldn't let him stop me from taking another QB if there is value there.

[Mace]

Tyrod played well last year, but, there was no film on him gong into last year. QBs like Kaepernick have had big years before defenses caught up to them. He's the starting QB next year and we'll go from there. I wouldn't let him stop me from taking another QB if there is value there.

That's the problem though. Whaley thought Manuel was value there.

[justasportsfan]

We had a top D, top running game in the years we haven't made playoffs. The one thing missing is a top qb.

Even if Rex builds this D to what he had when he had the top DL and top running game at jets, he still failed because both those units got owned by a top qb like Brady.

Wasting a 1st Rd pick on a qb (if he doesn't pan out) is better than a wasted pick on a DL like we have on Dareus who til this day hasn't sniffed a playoff game.

[trapezeus]

I love fans that post and don't know what they're talking about like you two. No one had a book on Taylor at the beginning of the season. He clearly worsened as the year came along. Now that teams have tape on him, they will shut him down next season. See Colin Kaepernik.

LBers are a dime a dozen. QBs are not.

and you see a no brainer qb to take? you saw the broncos win a superbowl with almost no productivity from their qb. when their run game was good, they were dominant. when they relied on peyton, he didn't have it.

tyrod can be a game manager. and his worse as he got along narrative did not play out that way. he was steadily a mediocre qb. he had a run in of really boring games and got better (but not superstar good) at the end. would i role the dice on him again? yes. because i'm not doing it for EJ. the team is now squarely for tyrod. and if ryan's defense can get back on track, then you just need mediocre from him. if you don't fix the d, a project like paxton, isn't going to make a difference next year either.

the bills are in a really crappy position. they are a mid level team without space to get better, and a handful of injuries and a woe is me attitude to being worse. even if they make the playoffs this year, they probably aren't built to be a contender soon. and with limited cap room, it'sjust not going to get any better. the absolute ceiling for this team is a first round exit. i would like to see them make the playoffs just to end this madness of not being able to do something that every one team has been able to do in 16 years.

[Mace]

We had a top D, top running game in the years we haven't made playoffs. The one thing missing is a top qb.

Even if Rex builds this D to what he had when he had the top DL and top running game at jets, he still failed because both those units got owned by a top qb like Brady.

Wasting a 1st Rd pick on a qb (if he doesn't pan out) is better than a wasted pick on a DL like we have on Dareus who til this day hasn't sniffed a playoff game.

Same thing though, EJ Manuel. We don't have a top D anymore and did better with a top D the season before and a journeyman. Wasting a 1st round pick is actually worse. Indy spent one on Luck, which was at least reasonable. They're still feast or famine only on their own division. I don't see a QB who will outgun Brady. We can't feast on our own division with a maybe QB and a feeble defense, and that maybe QB won't be lighting it up this year while Taylor gets to prove himself anyway.

So do you spend a pick on the pines for maybe, or try for at least an impact starter who gives immediate results ? We can't afford a maybe on the pines, we aren't good enough, despite people fantasizing we'll get the savior. Odds are good we'll get another Manuel instead.

[tomz]

Lynch has a Flacco vibe to him. He'll need a year of seasoning behind Taylor which he will get. In the meantime we will learn about Taylor and maybe not have to pay a franchise qb for 5 years. Very cap friendly. We can cap and trade Taylor or trade lynch if we see greatness from Taylor. Puts us in a much stronger position down the road. It's pretty win win especially if they would otherwise take d line which is super deep. This is how the good organizations do business.

[Mace]

Lynch has a Flacco vibe to him. He'll need a year of seasoning behind Taylor which he will get. In the meantime we will learn about Taylor and maybe not have to pay a franchise qb for 5 years. Very cap friendly. We can cap and trade Taylor or trade lynch if we see greatness from Taylor. Puts us in a much stronger position down the road. It's pretty win win especially if they would otherwise take d line which is super deep. This is how the good organizations do business.

Honestly, Good organizations do good business by scouting and getting QB's that fit their system, personnel and philosophy, do it right, don't need repeat it wildly. For this version of the Bills, they need a better Tyrod Taylor to handle a running game and throw better without a lot of pocket time figuring out reads. Not a pocket gunslinger to run a run based offense, not a guy to decipher long plays with an inferior pass blocking line. An elusive, mobile target, they've bought into the Seattle model.

Unless Roman intends to change his lifelong philosophy and it seems unlikely, a pro-style guy seems like a "no", and a limited spread read guy seems like less than what we have with more time needed to tune him, like Taylor already needs with a year of exp. So you're essentially drafting a less experienced Taylor and expecting him to do better in the pro game. A Flacco vibe needs pocket time we can't give it.

None of these guys look up to that imho, for a 1st round pick, no matter what everyone wants to fantasize about, and believe me, I fantasize about finding a gem too. I don't want any more rocks instead.

[Luisito23]

Lynch sucks...Next...:nuk:

[YardRat]

I'm willing to risk a day 2 or 3 pick on Prescott, or a late pick/UDFA on Coker or Hogan, but not a first on Lynch.

[HHURRICANE]

We need a guy behind Taylor regardless. EJ put the death nail in our playoff hopes with the Jacksonville loss.

[swiper]

and you see a no brainer qb to take?


No certainly not. I would be especially cautious with Paxton Lynch. He's one of those guys that looks to have a ton of potential, but has looked bad at times in college. But this draft is supposed to be loaded with those front 7 defenders everyone wants. So it's all weighing the relative value of each position and relative need. As always. The GM gets criticized by factions of fans no matter what he does. If they take a blue chip DE to replace Mario Williams, I would be just as happy. BUT, if they see a QB that can sit and learn and eventually start - as GB did with Rodgers, then they should do for it and forget any plans for "win now." Because they could win bigger and longer with a franchise QB.

[trapezeus]

fair enough swiper. I am not in the camp that the GM can do nothing right. To me, Tyrod has injury issues until he proves that he doesn't. if you get a project qb, if he has to come in and be a player due to a TT injury, then a few things happen.

1. his development can get stunted cause he's just not ready for it.
2. the fans turn on him because he was drafted too high where there were other needs. he isn't made for the criticism and flames out early.

You take a guy in day 2-3, the expectations are much lower.

[trapezeus]

and to be fair, I think tt has earned the right to show us what he has. it's not out of the question that he could get better. it's like the season we waited to see if JP had it, and he had the jets fumble game, which in retrospect is the second most embarrassing fumble in NJ.

I agree that EJ shouldn't be on the team, but if I had to select Paxton or a journeyman vet, I would take the vet at this point as #2 and a day 2-3 value qb pick as #3.

That being said, I don't know if there is a contractual reason that you have to hold onto EJ due to cap needs, etc.

[The Jokeman]

taking an Offensive player in round 1 will be a head scratcher. the team's d is weaker than it ended the year. the d needs a lb to qb the defense. we technically have a qb that did well statistically. he has to stay healthy and he has to get better in closer games and reducing 3 and outs. not out of the question.

I just don't see a no brainer qb in this draft. if you don't, then don't take one in round 1. a guy you don't trust starting for your team can be found later.

It's called building a roster, did the Packers need Aaron Rodgers when they drafted him? Nope but being TT is not guaranteed to be back after this season it might be wise to try and find a QB sooner than later.

[Night Train]

What we actually know prior to all drafts....Nothing.

Some never learn..

[ghz in pittsburgh]

@MatthewFairburn (https://twitter.com/MatthewFairburn)Doug Whaley on whether Tyrod Taylor is the long-term answer at QB : "We want him to be ... Time will tell."

[ghz in pittsburgh]

https://bills.buffalonews.com/2016/04/06/lynch-impresses-bills-at-memphis-pro-day/

Do they still subscribe to Nix's theory that QB's may need to be drafted one round earlier? One thing is certain: they are determined to draft one and have him sit a year.

[stuckincincy]

Well, Taylor scoots a lot (and makes folks worry about injury) because

a) the OL stinks,
b) he just can't see much of the field, or
c) the play calling stinks.

I'm thinking OL BPA in the 1st. I don't think they will dump Manuel, despite his warts. That would make them buyers (once again) in the old vet qb market - please no to that pricey money flushing.

Assuming they hang on to Manuel, my guess is that they will pluck a QB prospect 4th round and down.

[Dr. Who]

If they think a franchise qb is there at #19, you take him, period. It's the most important and difficult position to find in sports.
Pretty sure Roman knows what he wants in a qb. If he doesn't think he can work with Lynch, we probably won't take him.
Either way, visiting with Lynch and the OC and Palmer at his pro day is due diligence and tactically part of the pre-draft poker game.
My guess is front seven D player is still most likely in the first round.

[stuckincincy]

If they think a franchise qb is there at #19, you take him, period.

If so, I hope they don't telegraph their intent like they have in the past by opening their yap, or canning Manual before the draft.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

If you really dig deep into Bills current QB situation and overall roster, you may see some urgency in the Bills front office.

Tyrod as a franchise QB is still a question mark, both from ability and availability viewpoint. Also from cap perspective as well. Jettison Mario helped, but soon guys like Gilmore will take up the money void. Osweiler's cap numbers must've sent a shock wave to OBD because that's what Tyrod may look to be asking for if he simply performs in the same ballpark as he did last year. EJ will be out. So they need some viable options at the end of next season.

Ideally, you want draft someone not a long term project THIS year, and a vet QB who can pinch hit for Tyrod 2016. If Tyrod bombs 2016, you are in a fairly prepared situation. If Tyrod takes another step forward into budding star position, this new guy becomes your backup and you don't have to worry about QB position for 4 years (assuming Tyrod gets 5 year top money deal). If Tyrod stays at the same level, then you can evaluate whether the new guy moves far along to warrant starting, or buy the bullet franchising Tyrod for one more year before the new guy takes over (or draft someone else if the new guy does not look promising at all).

[Dr. Who]

If so, I hope they don't telegraph their intent like they have in the past by opening their yap, or canning Manual before the draft.

I would be shocked if EJ was let go before the draft. Even if a qb is drafted, I suspect he will stick as the primary back up for this year.

OBD has looked at a lot of qb prospects. I don't think they've telegraphed anything particularly.

[justasportsfan]

and you see a no brainer qb to take?

No brainers are hard to find and I doubt we'll be picking first in the next couple of years if there's even a no brainer then. We need to find a Rusell Wilson and the only way is to keep drafting a qb til we hit one.

[justasportsfan]

So do you spend a pick on the pines for maybe, or try for at least an impact starter who gives immediate results ?

Impact players like Watkins, Dareus, Gilmore have gotten us no where without a qb.

If Rex didn't destroy this D then we would have been able to take best player. Impact players can be had in FA. Franchise qb's are harder to come by even through FA. If one is ever available in FA, they will eat up our cap. Even the crappy ones are getting paid. If we need to keep trying to find one in the draft so be it.

[Joe Fo Sho]

We need to find a Rusell Wilson and the only way is to keep drafting a qb til we hit one.

That's not only a terrible way to find a QB, it's not even the way Seattle got Wilson. They drafted 1 quarterback in the 6 years previous to drafting Wilson.

[feldspar]

I doubt the Bills will go QB in the first round under any realistic circumstance.

I think there is more to it that it looks. Gotta do your homework, because lots of scenarios can play out, now or years from now. A guy can fall in the draft more than expected. A trade opportunity for one of these guys may present itself in a couple of few years. And even if a guy hits the free agent market four years from now, you'll have done your homework and know as much as you can about him.

Always gotta think long term, especially at the QB spot, for obvious reasons.

Whaley and crew are just doing their jobs.

[stuckincincy]

I would be shocked if EJ was let go before the draft. Even if a qb is drafted, I suspect he will stick as the primary back up for this year.

OBD has looked at a lot of qb prospects. I don't think they've telegraphed anything particularly. They waxed poetic about Spiller, sung a song about Dareus IIRC, sweet-talked about the wr needs (Watkins).

[swiper]

fair enough swiper. I am not in the camp that the GM can do nothing right.


I am not in that camp either. Certainly we all winced when he took our first pick, a second rounder, and took the Florida State CB. We all know about Buffalo and drafting CBs.

But that turned out to be a very good pick.

[Dr. Who]

They waxed poetic about Spiller, sung a song about Dareus IIRC, sweet-talked about the wr needs (Watkins).

I don't think going out to dinner with Lynch amounts to any of that.

[stuckincincy]

I don't think going out to dinner with Lynch amounts to any of that.

No, of course not. Not that. They've shot their mouths off in previous drafts to the point that folks noticed. I don't think there is a soul who follows the Bills that thinks that they are a sharp franchise...drafting generally high, bupkis for the play offs year after year. Haven't effectively replaced a Kelly for decades. You have to really be dumb (or scheming, because of non-stop sellouts) to not stumble on a decent QB somewhere...somewhere...along the way.

Pegula purchased a reliable cash cow. In addition of having the fun of owning an NFL franchise. See also the Bflo.Sabres.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Nothing is certain for sure. Doing the home work? Yes. You just don't know what happens on draft day, all kind of trade proposal will be there when you pick in spots like 19.

I do want to point out Whaley's Pittsburgh reputation of scouting defensive players especially linebacker and line. The Steelers are a 3-4 team through and through so their linebackers are a need all the time. Plus Rex himself is a pretty good D talent evaluator, especially on D line. So with the combination of Whaley and Rex, I have a high confidence that they will get a Date One contributor if they go on D at 19. The question is if you would rather NOT having that player which is a need on this team to get a potential QB that may pay long term dividend?

You all heard the story about Cowher and Colbert were going for a D lineman before Rooney steered them to Roelisberger and we say the rest is history. Truthfully though, 9 out of 10 this kind of owner's injection leads to an inferior pick.

[Dr. Who]

No, of course not. Not that. They've shot their mouths off in previous drafts to the point that folks noticed. I don't think there is a soul who follows the Bills that thinks that they are a sharp franchise...drafting generally high, bupkis for the play offs year after year. Haven't effectively replaced a Kelly for decades. You have to really be dumb (or scheming, because of non-stop sellouts) to not stumble on a decent QB somewhere...somewhere...along the way.

Pegula purchased a reliable cash cow. In addition of having the fun of owning an NFL franchise. See also the Bflo.Sabres.

Well, I don't group Pegula and Whaley in with years of prior dysfunction. I personally like Whaley and think he has improved the overall quality of the team. I will agree that one should be circumspect and not telegraph who one is interested in. It seems to me that so far the Bills are expressing interest in a lot of players and in a number of qbs.

The Sabres are going to be very good, btw. The tear down was necessary. The rebuild is progressing nicely. They are not far away from a dangerous team.

[mightysimi]

How much must does Taylor have to improve to be considered worth keeping?

-4000 yards, 25 TD's and under 10 picks?
-Better than 8 Yards per Attempt? 6 rushing TD's?


Or just do what he did for more than one year? I have never been sold on smaller mobile QB's but to me he is more Russel Wilson than Mike Vick.

Or do you get the rookie in the hopes he can start the following year and be decent? This is the course of action I see as the longest to sustained success.

[Joe Fo Sho]

What does Taylor have to do to keep him?

-4000 yards, 25 TD's and under 10 picks?
-Better than 8 Yards per Attempt? 6 rushing TD's?

How much must he improve to be considered worth keeping?

Or just do what he did for more than one year? I have never been sold on smaller mobile QB's but to me he is more Russel Wilson than Mike Vick.

Or do you get the rookie in the hopes he can start the following year and be decent? This is the course of action I see as the longest to sustained success.

To me it's not about any specific number or stat line. When Tyrod and our offense takes the field, I want to be confident that they can move the ball. That's pretty much it. If he can get me to be confident about moving the ball and scoring points with every drive, then I'll be convinced to pay him. It's a similar feeling to what Packers/Patriots/Saints/Panthers/Seahawks/Colts(with Luck)/Steelers/Cardinals/Giants fans feel when their offense walks out onto the field. He didn't do that for me last year.

[stuckincincy]

What does Taylor have to do to keep him?

-4000 yards, 25 TD's and under 10 picks?
-Better than 8 Yards per Attempt? 6 rushing TD's?

How much must he improve to be considered worth keeping?

Or just do what he did for more than one year? I have never been sold on smaller mobile QB's but to me he is more Russel Wilson than Mike Vick.

Or do you get the rookie in the hopes he can start the following year and be decent? This is the course of action I see as the longest to sustained success.

He made his hay by running around at the slightest sniff of an OL breakdown - then ran or pitched the ball to sideline receivers.

He's a QB that is easy to plan for. He has the pocket presence of a squirrel. He's very lucky that he escaped the season without being pounded into the turf.

[justasportsfan]

That's not only a terrible way to find a QB, it's not even the way Seattle got Wilson. They drafted 1 quarterback in the 6 years previous to drafting Wilson.


desperate times require desperate measures. What have we got to lose? Playoffs?

Where are we going find qb's? FA? Who's out there? Fitz? Kaep? How much will those mediocre at best qb cost these days?

The most important position in football is in a QB slump right now. Above average qb's are very hard to find. When guys like Fitz are making salary demands, it means there is a huge franchise qb drought.

[mightysimi]

To me it's not about any specific number or stat line. When Tyrod and our offense takes the field, I want to be confident that they can move the ball. That's pretty much it. If he can get me to be confident about moving the ball and scoring points with every drive, then I'll be convinced to pay him. It's a similar feeling to what Packers/Patriots/Saints/Panthers/Seahawks/Colts(with Luck)/Steelers/Cardinals/Giants fans feel when their offense walks out onto the field. He didn't do that for me last year.

I get not tying it to numbers but I would say those are pretty baseline numbers for what would indicate a successful season of a qb. There was a few ineffective periods that is for sure. I feel he can move the ball but there will always be the smaller guy/running qb issues where he could get hurt. However, Ben doesn't play them all either so I'm not convinced it is a trait reserved for smaller guys. I want to see him continue to protect the ball, and continue to improve in the passing game.

[mightysimi]

He made his hay by running around at the slightest sniff of an OL breakdown - then ran or pitched the ball to sideline receivers.

He's a QB that is easy to plan for. He has the pocket presence of a squirrel. He's very lucky that he escaped the season without being pounded into the turf.

So there is nothing he can do? He is just a scramble machine waiting to get hurt? So get anyone else in here?

He has virtually the same rushing stats as Wilson. Now the passing attempt for Wilson have gone up every year which I would say has to be as he becomes more comfortable as a pocket passer. Or developping.

By pitched to the sidelines do you mean a 50 yard bomb in the air or a horizontal bubble screen? I saw some of one and none of the other.

[mightysimi]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/04/07/report-broncos-have-asked-about-tyrod-taylor/

Fools!!

[Joe Fo Sho]

desperate times require desperate measures. What have we got to lose? Playoffs?

Yes?


Where are we going find qb's? FA? Who's out there? Fitz? Kaep? How much will those mediocre at best qb cost these days?

You draft a QB who you think you can develop and mold into what you want. You don't draft a QB every year and hope one miraculously turns out to be good. With every QB you draft, you give less attention to the current QBs on the roster. You also lose out on a player who could have impacted your team more than a garbage quarterback that you just end up throwing away a year later because you can't fit 5 quarterbacks on your roster every year.


The most important position in football is in a QB slump right now. Above average qb's are very hard to find. When guys like Fitz are making salary demands, it means there is a huge franchise qb drought.

So we're in a period where the quarterback position is the worst it's been in some time, and you want to load up our roster with them? That seems counter-intuitive.

If the chances of drafting a good quarterback is the lowest it has ever been, you better be even more sure that they will succeed before drafting one. You don't draft more of them, especially low round ones.

[Mace]

Impact players like Watkins, Dareus, Gilmore have gotten us no where without a qb.

If Rex didn't destroy this D then we would have been able to take best player. Impact players can be had in FA. Franchise qb's are harder to come by even through FA. If one is ever available in FA, they will eat up our cap. Even the crappy ones are getting paid. If we need to keep trying to find one in the draft so be it.

There aren't any impact players in FA atm, though, we couldn't afford them if there were, and from the looks of last season, Ryan's defense is not plug and play compatible. Watkins was an ill advised pick for a team without a QB imho. Dareus and Gilmore ran into Ryan's defensive concept, were doing just dandy the year before.

Good teams just don't reach for maybes, maybes are desperate and desperation gets you EJ Manuel and JP Losman in the first, or any from the list of fades I previously mentioned. College atm, is producing spread QB's, we don't run a spread offense. For that matter we don't run a primary passing one anyway.

Good teams take advantage of every early pick, they don't waste them on airballs. This team isn't good enough to have that luxury.

Why pass on a guy who can significantly contribute now for a down the road maybe ? You need immediate starters with early picks if you're a middlin' team or you stay middlin'.

There's the term again, "franchise QB", who is one, recently drafted ? Luck, Newton, others still maybes. Luck feasts on a weak division, is handicapped by a bad o-line and middlin' D. Newton however, has the benefit of a team around him.

I don't personally see any of these guys this year being Luck or Newton, so keep building the team, imho.

[mightysimi]

I think I will hope the Browns, Niners and Rams all pick a QB so I don't have to worry about it when our pick comes.

[BertSquirtgum]

Let's hope it's Connor Cook in the second round.

[BertSquirtgum]

That's the problem though. Whaley thought Manuel was value there.

Buddy Nix drafted Manuel EJaculation.

[Mace]

Buddy Nix drafted Manuel EJaculation.

Yanno, I thought so too, but Whaley was claiming hm, "credit".

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000204027/article/new-bills-gm-doug-whaley-integral-in-ej-manuel-pick

[swiper]

Buddy Nix drafted Manuel EJaculation.

No. Whaley claimed it. And he's the one with the FSU fix, not Nix. See their draft records.


I think I will hope the Browns, Niners and Rams all pick a QB so I don't have to worry about it when our pick comes.

Did you miss that the Browns signed RGIII? He who is rated far higher than any QB in this draft, is young and mobile? And they still have their starter from last season. You really think they're taking a QB now?

[swiper]

The fallacy of Tyrod Taylor:

2015 NFL completion percentage leader: Kirk Cousins 69.8%

Tyrod Taylor (#17 in the NFL): 63.7%

Ahead of him? Josh McNown & Sam Bradford

Taylor ain't that good.

[mightysimi]

Did you miss that the Browns signed RGIII? He who is rated far higher than any QB in this draft, is young and mobile? And they still have their starter from last season. You really think they're taking a QB now?

So all of a sudden RGIII is so good he doesn't even need competition? 2 years and less than 7 million guaranteed doesn't sound like a huge commitment. I think the try to trade McCown so RGIII isn't looking over his shoulder all year so yes I believe it is a possibility that Cleveland takes a QB.

[swiper]

So all of a sudden RGIII is so good he doesn't even need competition? 2 years and less than 7 million guaranteed doesn't sound like a huge commitment. I think the try to trade McCown so RGIII isn't looking over his shoulder all year so yes I believe it is a possibility that Cleveland takes a QB.


Let me get this straight. You really believe that the Browns will use a #1 draft pick at the top of the draft to take a 3rd string QB?

LOL.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The fallacy of Tyrod Taylor:

2015 NFL completion percentage leader: Kirk Cousins 69.8%

Tyrod Taylor (#17 in the NFL): 63.7%

Ahead of him? Josh McNown & Sam Bradford

Taylor ain't that good.

You need to look at the type of throws they were attempting though. Tyrod was consistently trying to push the ball deep downfield, which is why he wound up #7 in yards/completion (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2015/passing.htm) (Ahead of Roethlisberger, Wilson, and Brady) and #5 in yards/attempt (ahead of Brees, Newton, and Cousins).

That style of play has its own faults, as it can be quite boom or bust, but it's always going to look bad by completion %.

[stuckincincy]

No. Whaley claimed it. And he's the one with the FSU fix, not Nix. See their draft records.



Did you miss that the Browns signed RGIII? He who is rated far higher than any QB in this draft, is young and mobile? And they still have their starter from last season. You really think they're taking a QB now?

Only the Browns would sign this stiff. Let alone inking him to $15M for 2 years. He simply - cannot - see the field.

[feldspar]

I like Whaley more than most people seem to so far, but he dropped the ball with the EJ pick, obviously. I don't hold him solely responsible for it, but it's clear he played enough of a part. I was shocked by the pick, but I guess this is what happens when when you force the issue and draft for a certain position, especially QB. Doesn't seem like there was a QB to be had in that draft, definitely not in the first round anyway.

At least we traded down and got Kiko Alonso with basically the same pick. As it turns out, we may as well have drafted Shady McCoy with that first-round pick because that's basically what happened in the end.

[stuckincincy]

I like Whaley more than most people seem to so far, but he dropped the ball with the EJ pick, obviously. I don't hold him solely responsible for it, but it's clear he played enough of a part. I was shocked by the pick, but I guess this is what happens when when you force the issue and draft for a certain position, especially QB. Doesn't seem like there was a QB to be had in that draft, definitely not in the first round anyway.

At least we traded down and got Kiko Alonso with basically the same pick. As it turns out, we may as well have drafted Shady McCoy with that first-round pick because that's basically what happened in the end.


BUF forked over a 5 year $40 million contract to McCoy, including a $13 million signing bonus and $26.5 million guaranteed.


That took a big whack out of BUF's cap situation. McCoy had no other suitors for that amount of cash.

I bet he games the NFL injury system next season, and fades into the sunset with his bag of loot.

[swiper]

Only the Browns would sign this stiff. Let alone inking him to $15M for 2 years. He simply - cannot - see the field.

And yet the Broncos are going to sign Johnny Manziel.

[YardRat]

There isn't going to be a QB worth their perceived value for the Bills at #19. Lynch will probably go late first, early second, before Buffalo's second pick. Maybe Cook, also.
That leaves Hackenberg, Jones and Prescott available for them in the second round if they really want a QB and feel one is good enough to take a shot at that early or risk they will be gone before they pick in the third.

If they really believe in a guy it looks like they'll have to pull the trigger in the second round, or wait until late (5th or 6th) and take a stab at Hogan, Coker or Kessler or UDFA's like Adams Jr, Driskell or Woodrum.

Personally I'd wait until the third and see who drops because there should be a front seven defender, olineman or safety available that could most likely come in and contribute immediately, but if they are itchy they'll probably jump earlier.

[cookie G]

That's not only a terrible way to find a QB, it's not even the way Seattle got Wilson. They drafted 1 quarterback in the 6 years previous to drafting Wilson.

In 2010 they swapped their higher 2nd round pick for SD's lower 2nd round pick and added in a 3rd round pick for Charlie Whitehurst. They then paid him around $8 million for 2 years.

The next year, they paid for Tarvaris Jackson as a free agent;

The year after that, they signed a 3 year contract with Matt Flynn for nearly $9 million a year. That year, they also drafted Wilson.

They were definitely active with use of draft picks and free agency, in looking for their QB.

[cookie G]

There aren't any impact players in FA atm, though, we couldn't afford them if there were, and from the looks of last season, Ryan's defense is not plug and play compatible. Watkins was an ill advised pick for a team without a QB imho. Dareus and Gilmore ran into Ryan's defensive concept, were doing just dandy the year before.

Good teams just don't reach for maybes, maybes are desperate and desperation gets you EJ Manuel and JP Losman in the first, or any from the list of fades I previously mentioned. College atm, is producing spread QB's, we don't run a spread offense. For that matter we don't run a primary passing one anyway.

Good teams take advantage of every early pick, they don't waste them on airballs. This team isn't good enough to have that luxury.

Why pass on a guy who can significantly contribute now for a down the road maybe ? You need immediate starters with early picks if you're a middlin' team or you stay middlin'.

There's the term again, "franchise QB", who is one, recently drafted ? Luck, Newton, others still maybes. Luck feasts on a weak division, is handicapped by a bad o-line and middlin' D. Newton however, has the benefit of a team around him.

I don't personally see any of these guys this year being Luck or Newton, so keep building the team, imho.

Well, your definitely following the Bills' blueprint for team building..one that hasn't produced a playoff team for 16 years now.

This theory of using high draft picks as "immediate starters" has failed numerous times for the Bills in the past few years.

They drafted a CB in the 1st round who did little to nothing his first 2 years;
They drafted a DE in the 1st who never produced a sack;
They drafted a NT in the 2nd, because they were switching to a 3-4, who isn't in the league and longer, and hasn't been for several years;
They drafted a CB with the 1st pick of the 2nd round who was terrible as a CB. It was only after he switched to safety in his 3rd year that he was worth anything.

Drafting for need, "building a defense" or immediate impact, often does none of that. Even when this team has built a good defense, we still end up talking about the draft in December. This team has a long history of worrying about taking a QB and missing...but doesn't seem as concerned in missing on less important positions (which is all of them).

If there is a reasonably good chance that a guy like Lynch can become a franchise QB...or at least a very good starter, I don't have too much of a problem with taking him.

As you point out the failure in EJ Manuel, you have to ask how they got in that position? They let Fitz go...they had neglected the position for many years...and they were at a point where they HAD to take a QB. And that point landed on a year where there were no QBs worth it. I don't know why a team would want to put themselves in that situation again. Its better to take a chance on one when your needs aren't as great (they really aren't this year) than to wait until you're desperate.

BTW...I don't know if you or Yardie noticed it..but for being 2 of his biggest detractors on the board, you are both certainly catering to Rex. Looking at your mock drafts (OK, Yardie is coming around to drafting a RT in the first)

...but damn guys...you're giving someone you call Wrecks everything he's wanting. Maybe its his carefree attitude or his winning smile...but I suspect this is what happened to the 2 GMs he went through with the Jets.

[YardRat]

BTW...I don't know if you or Yardie noticed it..but for being 2 of his biggest detractors on the board, you are both certainly catering to Rex. Looking at your mock drafts (OK, Yardie is coming around to drafting a RT in the first)

...but damn guys...you're giving someone you call Wrecks everything he's wanting. Maybe its his carefree attitude or his winning smile...but I suspect this is what happened to the 2 GMs he went through with the Jets.

I can't speak for Mace, but I will go out on a limb and guess he's taking a similar approach...even though I somewhat despise what he did to all of the talent and further 'potential' of the #4 defense in the ENTIRE LEAGUE it would be foolish to attempt any mock drafts ignoring the fact that Wrecks is going to be here for this season, maybe even beyond, and approach the draft (and free agency, as limited as the team is) with no regard for the type of players that need to be acquired to fit the system the dumbass is hell-bent on ramming down the player's throats. As far as oline, as my mocks have played out (I usually approach picks with a BPA/need balance) I end up with a LBer like Ragland many times because the top 4-5 OT's have already gone off of the board and why would I take the 5th or 6th best tackle when the best inside LBer (which is once again a crying need thanks to Wrecks, maybe far more than oline even) is there?

Maybe I'll do a mock draft under the premise that Schwartz never got shafted, stayed on as DC, and a much better, offensive minded head coach was hired instead of the buffoon we got stuck with.

[Night Train]

There isn't going to be a QB worth their perceived value for the Bills at #19. Lynch will probably go late first, early second, before Buffalo's second pick. Maybe Cook, also.
That leaves Hackenberg, Jones and Prescott available for them in the second round if they really want a QB and feel one is good enough to take a shot at that early or risk they will be gone before they pick in the third.

If they really believe in a guy it looks like they'll have to pull the trigger in the second round, or wait until late (5th or 6th) and take a stab at Hogan, Coker or Kessler or UDFA's like Adams Jr, Driskell or Woodrum.

Personally I'd wait until the third and see who drops because there should be a front seven defender, olineman or safety available that could most likely come in and contribute immediately, but if they are itchy they'll probably jump earlier.

Hackenberg, God no. He looked bad against any quality opponent. Anyone but him.

[YardRat]

Hackenberg, God no. He looked bad against any quality opponent. Anyone but him.

I'm not a fan either, but that's about where he slots according to most.

[mightysimi]

Let me get this straight. You really believe that the Browns will use a #1 draft pick at the top of the draft to take a 3rd string QB?

LOL.

Well me and maybe 90% of all mock drafts but what do they know?

Did you miss the part where I said I think they trade McCown? Hugh Jackson is a QB guy. Wouldn't you want your newly hired coach to be able to develop a new guy for longer? Or you would be happy with one pass rusher with the rest of the D being terrible?

[Mace]

Well, your definitely following the Bills' blueprint for team building..one that hasn't produced a playoff team for 16 years now.

This theory of using high draft picks as "immediate starters" has failed numerous times for the Bills in the past few years.

They drafted a CB in the 1st round who did little to nothing his first 2 years;
They drafted a DE in the 1st who never produced a sack;
They drafted a NT in the 2nd, because they were switching to a 3-4, who isn't in the league and longer, and hasn't been for several years;
They drafted a CB with the 1st pick of the 2nd round who was terrible as a CB. It was only after he switched to safety in his 3rd year that he was worth anything.

Drafting for need, "building a defense" or immediate impact, often does none of that. Even when this team has built a good defense, we still end up talking about the draft in December. This team has a long history of worrying about taking a QB and missing...but doesn't seem as concerned in missing on less important positions (which is all of them).

If there is a reasonably good chance that a guy like Lynch can become a franchise QB...or at least a very good starter, I don't have too much of a problem with taking him.

As you point out the failure in EJ Manuel, you have to ask how they got in that position? They let Fitz go...they had neglected the position for many years...and they were at a point where they HAD to take a QB. And that point landed on a year where there were no QBs worth it. I don't know why a team would want to put themselves in that situation again. Its better to take a chance on one when your needs aren't as great (they really aren't this year) than to wait until you're desperate.

BTW...I don't know if you or Yardie noticed it..but for being 2 of his biggest detractors on the board, you are both certainly catering to Rex. Looking at your mock drafts (OK, Yardie is coming around to drafting a RT in the first)

...but damn guys...you're giving someone you call Wrecks everything he's wanting. Maybe its his carefree attitude or his winning smile...but I suspect this is what happened to the 2 GMs he went through with the Jets.

Well, following a blueprint assumes that you make the correct choices. It was thought that Losman and Manuel had reasonably good chances to become a franchise QB, and those exercises in team building had an awful lot to do with 16 years without playoffs. As Whaley called himself integral in choosing Manuel and will be even more integral this time, had a hand in Orton, Dennis Dixon, Thad Lewis, Jeff Tuel & Tyrod Taylor (in progress but people are already giving up on him in wanting a QB in the 1st round) while wanting Josh McCown, I don't have a lot of confidence he has an eye for franchise QB's. Ryan thought Sanchez was, wouldn't know if one sat on his shoulders. Roman...how much influence does he really have, and he's still a running game guy ?

Most of the failures you note are FO or scheme specific. I can't account for simple bad choices or 3-4 to 4-3 waffling. You have to make a good choice on a player, whether he's a QB, NT, DE or CB anyway. Truth is, they can just as easily get a bad starting DE as a bad future QB, but you just know it quicker.

I'd have to disagree on taking chances. Early rounds are exactly when you don't throw airballs on a middlin' team. Early rounds are when you should be going for relatively sure things (again, no accounting for bad choices, so far in two years on his own, Whaley has 3 reliable starters in 13 picks, and one of them, Brown, appears to be on the fence).

Regarding Rexmeister, I don't like him whatever. But he's doubling down on his scheme. I think it's unfortunately mandatory that you feed him defensive players for his defense to have any chance of success after what I saw from him with available talent last year. Yes you don't stuff players into scheme, you scheme to players, but it's painfully obvious he can't. So if he can't, and we're stuck with him, you're already all in, and have to play it out by getting him players for scheme. I don't like it. Don't like it at all. Means we have to start over again when he gets booted. But we're stuck with it and need to play it out for any chance at success whatever. What else can you do ?

I just don't think the team is good enough to airball any pick whatever in this deep draft. If Whaley nails this draft, and we have a more solid reliable team from it, I might feel differently next year. But I don't think this team gets any better this season by being desperate, and making more reaches like Losman or Manuel.

[cookie G]

Guys, I'm still confused.

Whaley should be an enabler for the guy who wrecks the Bills defense? I'll be scratching my head for weeks trying to figure out why that's a good idea, or how that is the correct way to build a playoff team.

What else can you? Stop enabling him, pick he best talent...as the GM sees fit...and put the onus on him.

Put up or shut up..he was handed a pretty freaking talented defense. No excuses. No whining. He can get a little help after the 2nd round...but he doesn't need much more.

As far as teh "safe" pick...I already listed some of the safe failures of the Bills.

now for Rex.

in the 6 first round picks between 2010 and 2014 (all defense btw)...

3 are busts.

2010 Kyle Wilson. No longer with the team, did nothing while he was there. According to Rex at the time... he and brother Rob (in Cleveland at the time) wanted him over Joe Haden:

On Saturday, Jets coach Rex Ryan talked about Wilson. And Rex possibly put his twin brother, Rob, in a tough spot by strongly hinting that the Browns defensive coordinator wanted Wilson, not Haden.

“There is somebody that I really know well for a long time that basically said that he was their guy and they picked a lot earlier than us,” Rex Ryan said. “You can probably figure it out. That’s who he wanted and then after practice, I’m like ‘Yep. I guarantee you were right because this guy is the real deal.'”

So good luck, Rob Ryan, as you attempt to make the appropriate bond with Joe Haden, the guy you didn’t want.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/01/rex-ryan-hints-that-rob-ryan-wanted-kyle-wilson-in-cleveland/

2012 Quinton Coples, no longer with the team, cut by his 2nd team..

(if true..I love this).

The Seattle Seahawks took Irvin off the board at 15th overall and the Jets were on the clock. General manager Mike Tannenbaum and right hand Terry Bradway had the following list: DE Chandler Jones, OG David DeCastro, DE Melvin Ingram, DE Courtney Upshaw.

According to NFL.com's Adam Schein, Jets head coach Rex Ryan thought "fix" North Carolina defensive end Quinton Coples and the Jets followed the lead of their head coach.

Ryan miscast the obvious 4-3 defensive lineman in a 3-4 scheme and the player never fit- and there was never any real chance that Coples would ever fit.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2015/11/23/9789014/new-york-jets-cut-2012-1st-round-pick-dl-quinton-coples-really-wanted

2013 Dee Millner Another Rex CB selection. Still with the Jets, though few know why.


6 safe picks...3 busts. 50% when you're claiming that you can't throw up ANY airballs.

The safest idea?

Locking him out of the war room.

And don't enable him.

[YardRat]

Guys, I'm still confused.

Whaley should be an enabler for the guy who wrecks the Bills defense? I'll be scratching my head for weeks trying to figure out why that's a good idea, or how that is the correct way to build a playoff team.

Hiring Wrecks to begin with isn't the 'correct' way to build a playoff team. It's a 'good idea' at the moment because unfortunately for us Whaley has to A)play the hand that was dealt him (if he wasn't part of the hiring process) or B)lay in the bed he made (if he was). The only slim chance he has from recovering from the mistake is to bring in players that fit Wrecks' scheme and hope like hell it works. A front office has to work together as a team just as much as the players do on the field, and Whaley has to play that individual role within the team concept, if the goal truly is to at least try to win.


What else can you? Stop enabling him, pick he best talent...as the GM sees fit...and put the onus on him.

That's fine in theory, and Wrecks has actually stated as much and he apparently still believes it. Isn't he on record as saying 'Just get me players, and I can make them successful'? Well, it only took one season to prove that's not the case, but if Whaley doesn't bring in guys that fit the system then we just end up with Wrecks driving another franchise into the ground and being able to point the 'the GM didn't get the right players' finger once again, a rehash of the Jet's mess (remember all of the commentary in support of the hire regarding the Idzik/Wryan rift?)


Put up or shut up..he was handed a pretty freaking talented defense. No excuses. No whining. He can get a little help after the 2nd round...but he doesn't need much more.


I agree obviously on the first part, not the second. The guy needs a ****-ton of help and his resume proves it.


As far as teh "safe" pick...I already listed some of the safe failures of the Bills.


There is no truly 'safe' pick, they are all risks...we all know that. It's just a matter of how much you want to gamble, and when.


now for Rex.

I don't think anybody's made the case that Wrecks has any talent whatsoever for evaluating players, or supported the concept that he should be the one with the final say on the picks.



The safest idea? Locking him out of the war room. And don't enable him.

I don't consider it 'enabling' him, it's the front office's job to acquire players that are perceived to have the best chance of helping the team succeed...for the team's sake, not the head coach's. Like it or not, the head coach has to be part of that process in some manner. Redefine the parameters so Wrecks doesn't have the final say in the exact players brought in? Sure, I'm all for that, I don't want him making the picks either, but the incompetency of a head coach can't eliminate the need for the GM to do his job.

[justasportsfan]

There aren't any impact players in FA atm, though, we couldn't afford them if there were, and from the looks of last season, Ryan's defense is not plug and play compatible. Watkins was an ill advised pick for a team without a QB imho. Dareus and Gilmore ran into Ryan's defensive concept, were doing just dandy the year before.

Good teams just don't reach for maybes, maybes are desperate and desperation gets you EJ Manuel and JP Losman in the first, or any from the list of fades I previously mentioned. College atm, is producing spread QB's, we don't run a spread offense. For that matter we don't run a primary passing one anyway.

Good teams take advantage of every early pick, they don't waste them on airballs. This team isn't good enough to have that luxury.

Why pass on a guy who can significantly contribute now for a down the road maybe ? You need immediate starters with early picks if you're a middlin' team or you stay middlin'.

There's the term again, "franchise QB", who is one, recently drafted ? Luck, Newton, others still maybes. Luck feasts on a weak division, is handicapped by a bad o-line and middlin' D. Newton however, has the benefit of a team around him.

I don't personally see any of these guys this year being Luck or Newton, so keep building the team, imho.


Good teams have franchise qb's.

[Skooby]

Good teams have franchise qb's.

Smart teams don't replace Pro Bowl QB's after their first starting season.

[Mace]

Guys, I'm still confused.
The safest idea?

Locking him out of the war room.

And don't enable him.

Any pick is a chance to throw a wild pitch, but you don't want to do it on purpose.

Well, you saw what Ryan did last year with the defense. Not "enabling" him is only going to make it worse. Unfortunately, you have to empower him. It just doesn't make any sense to me to purposely not cater to his perceived strength to give him the best chance to succeed. He's a one trick pony, the only hope for the next couple years is that he can do his one trick...and that Whaley has the eye to feed him players better for his trick than the Jets managed.

Tough loving him just recreates his Jets/Idzik failure quicker and will last longer, because he's not going anywhere for a while. You're even further wasting the potential of your picks by forcing them too into roles they can't fit, and you're wasting whatever perceived strength Ryan was hired for. He's not a precise game manager, strategic genius, or all seeing commanding general.

You don't want to force scheme on players, but you also don't want to force players into scheme. The same goes for QB's, it works poorly. Our staff is full of "system" guys. The QB coach is even wildcat Lee to go with running Roman. They are who they are. Spending a first round pick on a spread QB who will never have a spread offense to use...well, is like drafting Losman for his mobility and trying to force him into being a statue pocket passer, or like drafting the raw Manuel to develop and then being forced to start him too soon in a hurry up fast read offense (Marrone/Hackett's initial concept).

My thought is that you have to play the hand you're dealt. I don't like the hand, but it doesn't change anything. The cards all have Ryan's grinning face on them anyway. Only chance of success is in using them, but purposely failing to is just not wise to me.

[cookie G]

Any pick is a chance to throw a wild pitch, but you don't want to do it on purpose.

Well, you saw what Ryan did last year with the defense. Not "enabling" him is only going to make it worse. Unfortunately, you have to empower him. It just doesn't make any sense to me to purposely not cater to his perceived strength to give him the best chance to succeed. He's a one trick pony, the only hope for the next couple years is that he can do his one trick...and that Whaley has the eye to feed him players better for his trick than the Jets managed.

Tough loving him just recreates his Jets/Idzik failure quicker and will last longer, because he's not going anywhere for a while. You're even further wasting the potential of your picks by forcing them too into roles they can't fit, and you're wasting whatever perceived strength Ryan was hired for. He's not a precise game manager, strategic genius, or all seeing commanding general.

You don't want to force scheme on players, but you also don't want to force players into scheme. The same goes for QB's, it works poorly. Our staff is full of "system" guys. The QB coach is even wildcat Lee to go with running Roman. They are who they are. Spending a first round pick on a spread QB who will never have a spread offense to use...well, is like drafting Losman for his mobility and trying to force him into being a statue pocket passer, or like drafting the raw Manuel to develop and then being forced to start him too soon in a hurry up fast read offense (Marrone/Hackett's initial concept).

My thought is that you have to play the hand you're dealt. I don't like the hand, but it doesn't change anything. The cards all have Ryan's grinning face on them anyway. Only chance of success is in using them, but purposely failing to is just not wise to me.

All you're doing is creating an unnecessary rebuilding process and then extending it several years.

Under your plan, when are you expecting playoffs...2019? 2020?

He'll get good players...hell he HAS good players.

Anyway...sorry..i don't agree. I've seen this plan for 16 years and it hasn't worked.

I have no reason to expect it to work now.

[Mace]

Good teams have franchise qb's.

Denver just won a Super Bowl without one though, Indy has one and isn't any good outside of their division, Baltimore has one, was 5-11, Atlanta (8-8), Saints (7-9), Giants (6-10), Detroit (7-9), Chicago (6-10), Jets went 10-6 with Fitzpatrick, Chargers 4-12 with Rivers...KC went 11-5 with Alex Smith.....

Who is a "franchise" QB ? 6-10 Jameis ? 3-9 Mariota ? 9-7 Cousins ? 7-9 Carr ?

I can understand people dream of "franchise" qb's in concept. Arguably Luck was the last one drafted 32 qb's ago as of right now, before him you drop 11 more to Newton, 5 more to Dalton, then 21 more qb's to Stafford in 2009. That's 4 of 69 drafted qb's in 7 years.

They just don't grow like grass yearly.

[Mace]

All you're doing is creating an unnecessary rebuilding process and then extending it several years.

Under your plan, when are you expecting playoffs...2019? 2020?

He'll get good players...hell he HAS good players.

Anyway...sorry..i don't agree. I've seen this plan for 16 years and it hasn't worked.

I have no reason to expect it to work now.

Your alternative is wrecking a team for several years to wreck it again anyway though ?

I don't expect success until Ryan is gone, I thought I made that clear. What I said was that the best chance of success with Ryan here is catering to him. That's just the best chance of success. Deliberately limiting him just isn't. I'm no happier about it than you are, but you're basically saying to feed him square pegs for round holes because other versions of the team chose bad round ones.

There's no reason to expect it to work, that starts with hiring Ryan to begin with. Best chance for it to work is still....giving him Ryan guys to "work with". Best chance for it not to work, is not giving him Ryan guys, so you're taking the best chance for it not to work hoping it will work ?

Let's just agree to disagree. But if you remember anything from us talking about it, remember I'm not saying it's going to work, I'm saying that's the best chance for it to. I really don't expect it to turn out well in any case. To me it's just varying shades of woe.

[justasportsfan]

Denver just won a Super Bowl without one though, Indy has one and isn't any good outside of their division, Baltimore has one, was 5-11, Atlanta (8-8), Saints (7-9), Giants (6-10), Detroit (7-9), Chicago (6-10), Jets went 10-6 with Fitzpatrick, Chargers 4-12 with Rivers...KC went 11-5 with Alex Smith.....

Who is a "franchise" QB ? 6-10 Jameis ? 3-9 Mariota ? 9-7 Cousins ? 7-9 Carr ?

I can understand people dream of "franchise" qb's in concept. Arguably Luck was the last one drafted 32 qb's ago as of right now, before him you drop 11 more to Newton, 5 more to Dalton, then 21 more qb's to Stafford in 2009. That's 4 of 69 drafted qb's in 7 years.

They just don't grow like grass yearly.
We don't have a denvers defense. We're not even close to having their D. Rexy never created such a D.

We've had top Ds in the years we didn't make playoffs but didn't make playoffs because we didn't have a top qb.

I already stated earliwr the ravens and Denver winning the superbowl the way they did is rare.

[cookie G]

Your alternative is wrecking a team for several years to wreck it again anyway though ?

I don't expect success until Ryan is gone, I thought I made that clear. What I said was that the best chance of success with Ryan here is catering to him. That's just the best chance of success. Deliberately limiting him just isn't. I'm no happier about it than you are, but you're basically saying to feed him square pegs for round holes because other versions of the team chose bad round ones.

There's no reason to expect it to work, that starts with hiring Ryan to begin with. Best chance for it to work is still....giving him Ryan guys to "work with". Best chance for it not to work, is not giving him Ryan guys, so you're taking the best chance for it not to work hoping it will work ?

Let's just agree to disagree. But if you remember anything from us talking about it, remember I'm not saying it's going to work, I'm saying that's the best chance for it to. I really don't expect it to turn out well in any case. To me it's just varying shades of woe.

No..actually, I expect Ryan to be gone after this year, especially if the D plays like last year.

I'm really hoping Whaley is serious about going BPA throughout the draft and not caving in to silly demands.

Look at it from Whaley's perspective.

He had just spent several years accumulating a top 5 defense, using a bunch of resources and high draft picks in the process.

The new guy comes in and AFTER bragging about how he's a NOT a scheme specific guy...shows just the opposite, wants to rip the D apart and bring in a bunch of new guys.

If you're Whaley, arent' you saying "WTF"?

If he goes to Pegula and whines about not getting the guys he needs...Whaley's perfect rebuttal is..

"Um, Mr. Pegula, he was handed a top 5 defense in both yards and scoring, one that led the league in sacks 2 years in a row, under 2 different systems. How did I NOT give him the guys he needs?"

Though Whaley might be on a short leash, the one for Ryan is shorter.

I don't think this is a "setting him up to fail" situation, as he's got lots of talent to work with. And...under the BPA drafting scenario, he'll get more.

If it fails, he's going to whine anyway, just like he did after leaving the Jets.

[Skooby]

Rex is fine and head coaches with his resume don't grows on trees as well. Mario Williams was a complete waste of D-money (locker room cancer) and did nothing, barely even tackling anyone.


No..actually, I expect Ryan to be gone after this year, especially if the D plays like last year.

I'm really hoping Whaley is serious about going BPA throughout the draft and not caving in to silly demands.

Look at it from Whaley's perspective.

He had just spent several years accumulating a top 5 defense, using a bunch of resources and high draft picks in the process.

The new guy comes in and AFTER bragging about how he's a NOT a scheme specific guy...shows just the opposite, wants to rip the D apart and bring in a bunch of new guys.

If you're Whaley, arent' you saying "WTF"?

If he goes to Pegula and whines about not getting the guys he needs...Whaley's perfect rebuttal is..

"Um, Mr. Pegula, he was handed a top 5 defense in both yards and scoring, one that led the league in sacks 2 years in a row, under 2 different systems. How did I NOT give him the guys he needs?"

Though Whaley might be on a short leash, the one for Ryan is shorter.

I don't think this is a "setting him up to fail" situation, as he's got lots of talent to work with. And...under the BPA drafting scenario, he'll get more.

If it fails, he's going to whine anyway, just like he did after leaving the Jets.

[YardRat]

All you're doing is creating an unnecessary rebuilding process and then extending it several years.

That process was created when Wrecks was hired.


Under your plan, when are you expecting playoffs...2019? 2020?

2016 should have been the year...it was there for the taking, and submarined by one stupid move.


He'll get good players...hell he HAS good players.


Good players that he doesn't know how to use, despite his own belief to the contrary.

[YardRat]

We don't have a denvers defense. We're not even close to having their D.

Yeah, we kind of did. Buffalo was 4th, Denver was 3rd, in 2014. Buffalo's defensive line was being touted as the best in the league, not Denver's. That's the most frustrating part...Buffalo could have been Denver this year, simply by keeping the defense and special teams intact and adding a couple of pieces on offense. It's not like the combination of Manning/Osweiler outplayed Taylor by much in 2015, if at all.

[X-Era]

This team has needed a franchise QB since Kelly. The team won't win a Super Bowl without one in my opinion. But we also can't manufacture one.

This is not the draft to go all in on a QB. Furthermore, we've seen enough from Tyrod to warrant a longer look. To me that means the urgency to go all in on a QB isn't as high as in most years.

Personally, I would draft a QB every year until the long term answer is found. And Tyrod has only earned more starting time at this point.

But, I would not draft a QB high in this years draft. Why? I don't feel any of these guys have enough of what it takes to be drafted where they may be drafted. It's a pick vs. value scenario.

In the mid-rounds I care less than in early rounds. I want to take high value picks for the Bills with our early picks. Using our 19 pick on a QB who will likely be a backup this year is not taking full advantage of what the draft presents us.

Fill our needs first. Then we can take some chances.

I feel that in a decent QB draft, none of these guys would go in the first round. Maybe Goff.

[HHURRICANE]

Everyone is making valid points here. Cookie G and mace both make good arguments.

In my opinion a franchise QB doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers. It has to be someone who consistently plays well enough to be on the roster more than 2 years as the starter. Hard to build a team around an unknown entity.

As for Rex, he did go 8-8 with a ton of injuries. Tyrod getting injured lost us two games, Kyle was gone most of the season, and Harvin disappeared after having a promising start. The last game of the season proved to me that he can coach.

[sukie]

Personally, I would draft a QB every year until the long term answer is found.

Bingo

[Skooby]

Everyone is making valid points here. Cookie G and mace both make good arguments.

In my opinion a franchise QB doesn't have to be Aaron Rodgers. It has to be someone who consistently plays well enough to be on the roster more than 2 years as the starter. Hard to build a team around an unknown entity.

As for Rex, he did go 8-8 with a ton of injuries. Tyrod getting injured lost us two games, Kyle was gone most of the season, and Harvin disappeared after having a promising start. The last game of the season proved to me that he can coach.

EJ starting killed any chance of making the playoffs last season, so he's off the table as the answer.

[Yasgur's Farm]

EJ starting killed any chance of making the playoffs last season, so he's off the table as the answer.Wellll... If it's not EJ, then who? You're not helping your argument... Paxton Lynch would make a great back-up.

[Figster]

EJ starting killed any chance of making the playoffs last season, so he's off the table as the answer.

John Elway had a worse NFL start and he's in the HOF

14 - 16 games under two different systems is not much of a sample for evaluation in my humble opinion.


Drafting a QB in any round still leaves E J the better choice backing Taylor IMO, Manuel is a 1st round draft choice that needs more experience and further evaluation.

[justasportsfan]

Yeah, we kind of did. Buffalo was 4th, Denver was 3rd, in 2014. Buffalo's defensive line was being touted as the best in the league, not Denver's. That's the most frustrating part...Buffalo could have been Denver this year, simply by keeping the defense and special teams intact and adding a couple of pieces on offense. It's not like the combination of Manning/Osweiler outplayed Taylor by much in 2015, if at all.

I meant now.

[justasportsfan]

This team has needed a franchise QB since Kelly. The team won't win a Super Bowl without one in my opinion.


superbowl? Forget superbowl for now. We need to think playoffs first. We had a top D 2 years ago but didn't make playoffs because of crappy qb play. That just states how important a qb is. I'm not saying we should draft one with out first pick for the sake of drafting one like we did with EJ but it should be our priority. If they think Paxton or if there is is a future franchise qb when we pick pull the trigger.

[jimmifli]

Denver just won a Super Bowl without one though, Indy has one and isn't any good outside of their division, Baltimore has one, was 5-11, Atlanta (8-8), Saints (7-9), Giants (6-10), Detroit (7-9), Chicago (6-10), Jets went 10-6 with Fitzpatrick, Chargers 4-12 with Rivers...KC went 11-5 with Alex Smith.....

Who is a "franchise" QB ? 6-10 Jameis ? 3-9 Mariota ? 9-7 Cousins ? 7-9 Carr ?

I can understand people dream of "franchise" qb's in concept. Arguably Luck was the last one drafted 32 qb's ago as of right now, before him you drop 11 more to Newton, 5 more to Dalton, then 21 more qb's to Stafford in 2009. That's 4 of 69 drafted qb's in 7 years.

They just don't grow like grass yearly.

All the more reason to draft a QB. We've tried twice in 16 years, so a 12.5% chance of hitting (the math is more complicated, but just for the sake of discussion). Even if our front office was average at drafting, those are long odds.

The new QB contracts don't sink a team for 5 years, so take one every other year until you hit.

If we get lucky and end up with two QBs we can trade for picks.

[Joe Fo Sho]

All the more reason to draft a QB. We've tried twice in 16 years, so a 12.5% chance of hitting (the math is more complicated, but just for the sake of discussion). Even if our front office was average at drafting, those are long odds.

The new QB contracts don't sink a team for 5 years, so take one every other year until you hit.

If we get lucky and end up with two QBs we can trade for picks.

I have to assume you mean 1st round QBs when you say twice in 16 years.

With that in mind here's who we would have drafted in the 1st round had we taken the next QB selected, also who we would not have on our team.



<tbody>
YEAR
QB TO BE DRAFTED
PLAYER WE NO LONGER HAVE


2014
Johnny Manziel
Sammy Watkins


2013
EJ Manuel
EJ Manuel


2012
Brandon Weeden
Stephon Gilmore


2011
Jake Locker
Marcel Dareus


2010
Tim Tebow
CJ Spiller


2009
Josh Freeman
Aaron Maybin


2008
Joe Flacco
Leodis McKelvin


2007
Brady Quinn
Marshawn Lynch


2006
Matt Leinart
Donte Whitner


2005
No 1st Round Pick



2004
JP Losman
JP Losman


2003
Dave Ragone
Willis McGahee


2002
Patrick Ramsey
Mike Williams


2001
Drew Brees
Nate Clements


2000
Giovanni Carmazzi
Erik Flowers


1999
Shaun King
Antoine Winfield


1998
No 1st (ROB JOHNSON Trade)
--


1997
Jim Drunkenmiller
Antowain Smith


1996
Tony Banks
Eric Moulds


1995
Todd Collins (Got him anyway)
Ruben Brown

</tbody>


That is 20 drafts. Your strategy would might have worked once. Because you alternate years, we would either have Flacco or Brees, everyone else is crap. Even if we drafted Brees, we probably would have given up on him like San Diego did because we are so quick to take 1st round QBs. That means we would have replaced Drew Brees with Dave Ragone because of this ridiculous strategy, which yields a 50/50 shot we would still not have a franchise quarterback.

The strategy is crap, but people still think it's a viable solution for some reason.

[X-Era]

I have to assume you mean 1st round QBs when you say twice in 16 years.

With that in mind here's who we would have drafted in the 1st round had we taken the next QB selected, also who we would not have on our team.



<tbody>
YEAR
QB TO BE DRAFTED
PLAYER WE NO LONGER HAVE


2014
Johnny Manziel
Sammy Watkins


2013
EJ Manuel
EJ Manuel


2012
Brandon Weeden
Stephon Gilmore


2011
Jake Locker
Marcel Dareus


2010
Tim Tebow
CJ Spiller


2009
Josh Freeman
Aaron Maybin


2008
Joe Flacco
Leodis McKelvin


2007
Brady Quinn
Marshawn Lynch


2006
Matt Leinart
Donte Whitner


2005
No 1st Round Pick



2004
JP Losman
JP Losman


2003
Dave Ragone
Willis McGahee


2002
Patrick Ramsey
Mike Williams


2001
Drew Brees
Nate Clements


2000
Giovanni Carmazzi
Erik Flowers


1999
Shaun King
Antoine Winfield


1998
No 1st (ROB JOHNSON Trade)
--


1997
Jim Drunkenmiller
Antowain Smith


1996
Tony Banks
Eric Moulds


1995
Todd Collins (Got him anyway)
Ruben Brown

</tbody>


That is 20 drafts. Your strategy would might have worked once. Because you alternate years, we would either have Flacco or Brees, everyone else is crap. Even if we drafted Brees, we probably would have given up on him like San Diego did because we are so quick to take 1st round QBs. That means we would have replaced Drew Brees with Dave Ragone because of this ridiculous strategy, which yields a 50/50 shot we would still not have a franchise quarterback.

The strategy is crap, but people still think it's a viable solution for some reason.Wait... what?

2015- too early to tell
2014- Derek Carr
2013- All are not very good
2012- Russell Wilson
2011- Andy Dalton, Tyrod
2010- Nobody really
2009- Nobody really
2008- Joe Flacco
2007- Nobody really
2006- Nobody really

In the last 9 years we've had like 3 QB drafted that are good starters.

Give up? Not in my opinion. You draft one every year until you hit. Doesn't need to be in the 1st round necessarily.

[YardRat]

I meant now.

Well, now is one season later for both teams...they were pretty equal at 'the starting line' of the end of the 2014 season. The difference between the two really boils down to Denver hiring a defensive coordinator and Buffalo hiring a defensive dumbass.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Wait... what?

2015- too early to tell
2014- Derek Carr
2013- All are not very good
2012- Russell Wilson
2011- Andy Dalton, Tyrod
2010- Nobody really
2009- Nobody really
2008- Joe Flacco
2007- Nobody really
2006- Nobody really

In the last 9 years we've had like 3 QB drafted that are good starters.

Give up? Not in my opinion. You draft one every year until you hit. Doesn't need to be in the 1st round necessarily.

I took our first round draft position, and selected the very next QB taken instead of our 1st round pick. That's what the assumed strategy was, as it was stated that we have only 'tried' to get a QB when we took one in the first round.

It's easy to say "we should have drafted Wilson!" 5 years later.

Taking a QB every year is a ridiculous strategy. If it was even remotely intelligent, you'd think an NFL team would be doing it, or maybe even doing something even close to it..but they're not. I mean, the QB position is the most important position in team sports. They must all just be idiots. Or maybe they're just not playing Madden.


In the last 9 years we've had like 3 QB drafted that are good starters.

You even say it yourself. There have been crap for QB's in the past 9 years, yet you want to draft more of them. You have to understand how stupid that is.

[jimmifli]

It's easy to say "we should have drafted Wilson!" 5 years later.

It's easy to say because we were all saying it then. When the 3rd round started everybody that posted saying we should draft him was laughed at because there was no way he'd still be there. But with Indy and Denver presumably off the board, there was a chance. The draft day threads got more optimistic with every passing pick. When Houston picked a WR, the board exploded. We all thought we were getting Wilson. And then we drafted a 7th round WR.

[YardRat]

I admit it, I didn't want Wilson, I was pulling for Sanu. Here's my comment on the Graham pick..."Meh. The last thing I wanted was a slightly bigger Roscoe Parrish."

[Joe Fo Sho]

It's easy to say because we were all saying it then. When the 3rd round started everybody that posted saying we should draft him was laughed at because there was no way he'd still be there. But with Indy and Denver presumably off the board, there was a chance. The draft day threads got more optimistic with every passing pick. When Houston picked a WR, the board exploded. We all thought we were getting Wilson. And then we drafted a 7th round WR.

But if we were really trying, like you said, we would have gone with Weeden in the 1st, right?

I knew people that wanted Trent Edwards, and we grabbed him in the 3rd round. That was unsuccessful, just like every one of our other attempts to find a QB.

I'd also like to point out that just because this team has only drafted 2 QBs in the 1st round, it does not mean they have neglected the QB position. They have had several unsuccessful attempts at finding the right guy, they're just really bad at it.

[cookie G]

I took our first round draft position, and selected the very next QB taken instead of our 1st round pick. That's what the assumed strategy was, as it was stated that we have only 'tried' to get a QB when we took one in the first round.

It's easy to say "we should have drafted Wilson!" 5 years later.

Taking a QB every year is a ridiculous strategy. If it was even remotely intelligent, you'd think an NFL team would be doing it, or maybe even doing something even close to it..but they're not. I mean, the QB position is the most important position in team sports. They must all just be idiots. Or maybe they're just not playing Madden.



You even say it yourself. There have been crap for QB's in the past 9 years, yet you want to draft more of them. You have to understand how stupid that is.

Can you wake me when this We-need-to-build-the-defense-and-worry-about-getting-a-QB-another-time strategy is eventually going to pay off?

I mean, I've raised 2 kids waiting for this plan to work.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Can you wake me when this We-need-to-build-the-defense-and-worry-about-getting-a-QB-another-time strategy is eventually going to pay off?

I mean, I've raised 2 kids waiting for this plan to work.

The Bills don't have a worry-about-getting-a-QB-another-time strategy. Just because we haven't hit on one doesn't mean we haven't tried. We used 1st round picks on Losman, Manuel, Rob Johnson, and Bledsoe. We signed available free agent starting QBs with Fitzpatrick, Orton, and Kolb. Even free agent backup QBs like Tyrod. Traded for backups like Thad Lewis. We drafted mid round talent like Edwards, signed unknowns off of practice squads like Brohm. We took a flyer on a Canadian QB with Flutie and then threw him out because we invested so much in Robbie. Which is exactly what this stupid draft a QB every year strategy will get you. You're going to get rid of a QB if he doesn't pan out in one year, how smart of us. We would've cut Brees before his contract expired. Just because we're terrible at finding the right QB doesn't mean we haven't worried about getting one. That's ridiculous of you to say.

I'm in favor of drafting a quarterback this year and investing the proper amount of time and effort into developing him in case Tyrod doesn't pan out. That's what good teams do. What I'm not in favor of is this 'draft a qb high every year' strategy that some think will magically get us into the playoffs.

I guess we should have drafted Wilson to sit behind Freeman, Locker, Clausen, Fitzpatrick and Edwards. Then we could have drafted EJ again because you know we still wouldn't have a QB as it would probably be Locker's turn to start. Ya know, because you have 6 quarterbacks on your roster. By the time it's Wilson's turn to start, who knows what kind of team we'd have around him. I doubt we'd have the defense and running game that he had in Seattle.

Wake me up when you guys are done playing Madden.

[feldspar]

Can you wake me when this We-need-to-build-the-defense-and-worry-about-getting-a-QB-another-time strategy is eventually going to pay off?

I mean, I've raised 2 kids waiting for this plan to work.

Maybe you should have raised two quarterbacks...did you ever think about that?

[Skooby]

Can you wake me when this We-need-to-build-the-defense-and-worry-about-getting-a-QB-another-time strategy is eventually going to pay off?

I mean, I've raised 2 kids waiting for this plan to work.

Valid point but Pegula just got the team & RW's 50 year plan basically turned off about 20 years ago, I think that has a lot to do with it.

- - - Updated - - -


Maybe you should have raised two quarterbacks...did you ever think about that?

BWAHAHA, classic.

[cookie G]

The Bills don't have a worry-about-getting-a-QB-another-time strategy. Just because we haven't hit on one doesn't mean we haven't tried. We used 1st round picks on Losman, Manuel, Rob Johnson, and Bledsoe. We signed available free agent starting QBs with Fitzpatrick, Orton, and Kolb. Even free agent backup QBs like Tyrod. Traded for backups like Thad Lewis. We drafted mid round talent like Edwards, signed unknowns off of practice squads like Brohm. We took a flyer on a Canadian QB with Flutie and then threw him out because we invested so much in Robbie. Which is exactly what this stupid draft a QB every year strategy will get you.

I think your definition of effort and mine in this area differ.

Bledsoe 16 years ago...they traded for him, it didn't work out..move on.

Of all of the other FA's you're talking about, not one was a PB QB, past or present, and I don't think one ever led a team to the playoffs. We're not talking top tier, (or often 2nd tier FA's. Fitz was brought in as a back up who ended up outplaying others on the roster. I admired him for what he was...a smart guy with limited talent who always gave his all.
The others...outside of occasionally Orton, career career back ups.

That's not much effort in a 16 year period.

Losman- Donahoe panicked. He tried to trade up for Roethsleberger, Pitt wouldn't bite. Had he offered Jax or Houston (who drafted 9 and 10 that year) what he ended up giving Dallas to trade up...we probably would have had him.

That was 12 years ago.

Edwards- the epitome of the Bills' QB efforts. Take a guy in the 3rd round, a guy who had thrown more than 10 TD passes in college once in 4 seasons, and not only does he make the roster, but he's propped up as the franchise QB for 3 years. Not surprisingly, he threw more than 10 TDs once (11) in his entire career. But people see that as effort.

Manuel-that's by far the easiest one to see. After 3 years with Buddy, the Bills still didn't have a QB, and hadn't looked for one. They had no choice but to draft one. And..as it often is when a team is desperate, or neglects the position for so many years, the year they are forced to draft one is a bad QB year.

This is sounding like people did with the OL..

We got Joe Bumble**** off Detroit's practice squad, Jim LowRoundPick at the bottom of the 6th and Todd Washedup off waivers from Tampa...how can you say that isn't trying?




You're going to get rid of a QB if he doesn't pan out in one year, how smart of us. We would've cut Brees before his contract expired. Just because we're terrible at finding the right QB doesn't mean we haven't worried about getting one. That's ridiculous of you to say.

Huh? No one said anything about getting rid of Tyrod this year. But lots can happen in a year.

He could be a one year wonder, like Derek Anderson;
Injury;
Another team may offer him $20 million a year at the end of the season.

They may have gotten really, really lucky with TT, or they might have just gotten one year out of him.




I'm in favor of drafting a quarterback this year and investing the proper amount of time and effort into developing him in case Tyrod doesn't pan out. That's what good teams do. What I'm not in favor of is this 'draft a qb high every year' strategy that some think will magically get us into the playoffs.

So good. If Lynch turns out to have a good chance as a franchise QB (you can never, ever say a Qb is a lock) you wouldn't have a problem with using our 1st to take him? After all its not an every year thing, this is year 3 of not taking a QB.



I guess we should have drafted Wilson to sit behind Freeman, Locker, Clausen, Fitzpatrick and Edwards. Then we could have drafted EJ again because you know we still wouldn't have a QB as it would probably be Locker's turn to start. Ya know, because you have 6 quarterbacks on your roster. By the time it's Wilson's turn to start, who knows what kind of team we'd have around him. I doubt we'd have the defense and running game that he had in Seattle.

1. There were more than just Wilson that got away.
2. There are many on that list I never would have drafted. Never a fan of Locker (accuracy issues), Gabbert (lack of college production), Claussen (system QB, like most USC QBs).
3. Wilson was drafted AFTER Seattle signed Matt Flynn at 9 Million a year, which was one year after they signed Tarvaris Jackson, which was one year after they traded for Charlie Whitehurst. Wilson was never supposed to start, he just outplayed everyone else. Now, if people said, "We just signed Matt Flynn and the guy from the Vikings.." there would have been no SB ring and no SB appearance for them.




Wake me up when you guys are done playing Madden.

0-16 on the half assed efforts to get a QB resulting to playoff appearances.

Think we can make it to 20 as we rebuild a defense for Rex?

[cookie G]

Maybe you should have raised two quarterbacks...did you ever think about that?

One wanted nothing to do with football (he would have probably made a hell of a LB) and the other has a sissy arm, so he was relegated to the Oline (wasn't half bad).

In any event, the Bills wouldn't have drafted either and my loyalties would have been torn.

[cookie G]

Valid point but Pegula just got the team & RW's 50 year plan basically turned off about 20 years ago, I think that has a lot to do with it.



I may be one of the few, but I actually have a little more faith in Whaley than I've had in others in the past.

Buddy was a horrendous disappointment and Levy was led around the nose by Jauron, who had no business evaluating any kind of talent on offense.

[X-Era]

I took our first round draft position, and selected the very next QB taken instead of our 1st round pick. That's what the assumed strategy was, as it was stated that we have only 'tried' to get a QB when we took one in the first round.

It's easy to say "we should have drafted Wilson!" 5 years later.

Taking a QB every year is a ridiculous strategy. If it was even remotely intelligent, you'd think an NFL team would be doing it, or maybe even doing something even close to it..but they're not. I mean, the QB position is the most important position in team sports. They must all just be idiots. Or maybe they're just not playing Madden.



You even say it yourself. There have been crap for QB's in the past 9 years, yet you want to draft more of them. You have to understand how stupid that is.So your solution for getting a franchise QB is what?

Trade for one? Virtually never happens
Sign one? Last one I can think of was Brees. I'd say Manning but he had his choice of where he wanted to go. They all do.

But not draft one?

The chances of drafting one are slim, yet there really is no other route, so we shouldn't try to draft one?

Draft one every year until you find what you need. Note that I never said to spend our 1st rounder every year on a QB.

Nothing ridiculous about that unless you can find a better method. Hell, I'm not sure we have much of a choice based on the odds.

[X-Era]

Maybe you should have raised two quarterbacks...did you ever think about that?
In Bills years they'd be like 100 until they ever matured.

[X-Era]

Quick sanity check... Is there any reason we have to decide if we're going to draft a QB in the 2017 draft or beyond right now?

Would I draft one this year? Yes. Why? because EJ is gone after this year, Tyrod hasn't fully become the long term answer, and being on the Bills team for a year as the 2nd or 3rd stringer helps the guy to grow.

[Mr. Pink]

I wouldn't say you need to draft a QB every year in Round 1, but every year you don't have at least a QB who can get you to that next level you should be drafting a QB somewhere in the draft. Then as your QB ages, you should be drafting a QB every few years somewhere in the mid rounds as a potential successor or a guy who can come in and maybe win you some games because he'll be acclimated to the system. This can work and it can fail, New England Cassel, Indy Painter as examples.

Plus you should be drafting a QB in the first round more than twice in the past 20 years.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I think your definition of effort and mine in this area differ.

Bledsoe 16 years ago...they traded for him, it didn't work out..move on.

Of all of the other FA's you're talking about, not one was a PB QB, past or present, and I don't think one ever led a team to the playoffs. We're not talking top tier, (or often 2nd tier FA's. Fitz was brought in as a back up who ended up outplaying others on the roster. I admired him for what he was...a smart guy with limited talent who always gave his all.
The others...outside of occasionally Orton, career career back ups.

That's not much effort in a 16 year period.

To be fair though, how many Pro Bowl free agent QBs were available via free agency? Or even a trade for that matter? It doesn't happen often, I can't blame Buffalo for that.


Losman- Donahoe panicked. He tried to trade up for Roethsleberger, Pitt wouldn't bite. Had he offered Jax or Houston (who drafted 9 and 10 that year) what he ended up giving Dallas to trade up...we probably would have had him.

It's still effort, but yes, with a little bit more we could have gotten Roethlisberger and we wouldn't be having these discussions.


Edwards- the epitome of the Bills' QB efforts. Take a guy in the 3rd round, a guy who had thrown more than 10 TD passes in college once in 4 seasons, and not only does he make the roster, but he's propped up as the franchise QB for 3 years. Not surprisingly, he threw more than 10 TDs once (11) in his entire career. But people see that as effort.

So are you saying that draft round selection is directly related to effort?

If Edwards had worked out it would have been genius. Just like people complaining that we didn't draft Wilson like it was such an easy decision.


Manuel-that's by far the easiest one to see. After 3 years with Buddy, the Bills still didn't have a QB, and hadn't looked for one. They had no choice but to draft one. And..as it often is when a team is desperate, or neglects the position for so many years, the year they are forced to draft one is a bad QB year.

A lot of teams that take QBs in the 1st round are desperate, there's nothing new there. It doesn't change the fact that we tried, and gave EJ every chance to succeed.


This is sounding like people did with the OL..

We got Joe Bumble**** off Detroit's practice squad, Jim LowRoundPick at the bottom of the 6th and Todd Washedup off waivers from Tampa...how can you say that isn't trying?

My point is that when we put in effort, we need to be certain that the guy we take is who we want, and we need to provide that player with the support he needs to progress. We shouldn't draft a QB the year after we draft him so that he's constantly looking over his shoulder and our QB resources are now cut in half to split between 2 QBs, or 3, or 4. It's crap.

I don't suggest drafting a left tackle every season until we get a stud either, or any position for that matter. It's ludicrous.


Huh? No one said anything about getting rid of Tyrod this year. But lots can happen in a year.

He could be a one year wonder, like Derek Anderson;
Injury;
Another team may offer him $20 million a year at the end of the season.

They may have gotten really, really lucky with TT, or they might have just gotten one year out of him.

That quote was in reference to the draft strategy of taking a QB high in the draft every year. It didn't have anything to do with Tyrod. I like how the Bills have handled the Tyrod situation so far.


So good. If Lynch turns out to have a good chance as a franchise QB (you can never, ever say a Qb is a lock) you wouldn't have a problem with using our 1st to take him? After all its not an every year thing, this is year 3 of not taking a QB.

I would not have a problem drafting a QB with our 1st round pick this year. That's certainly not the point I'm trying to make.


1. There were more than just Wilson that got away.

There were also QBs that we stayed away from, and rightly so.


2. There are many on that list I never would have drafted. Never a fan of Locker (accuracy issues), Gabbert (lack of college production), Claussen (system QB, like most USC QBs).

Hindsight is 20/20, as Cam Newton would say.


3. Wilson was drafted AFTER Seattle signed Matt Flynn at 9 Million a year, which was one year after they signed Tarvaris Jackson, which was one year after they traded for Charlie Whitehurst. Wilson was never supposed to start, he just outplayed everyone else. Now, if people said, "We just signed Matt Flynn and the guy from the Vikings.." there would have been no SB ring and no SB appearance for them.

Every single one of the moves that Seattle did would be classified by you as 'little effort,' and that includes the 3rd round Russell Wilson pick. They overpaid for an unknown, signed a non-PB QB Tarvaris Jackson, and traded for a forever backup in Charlie Whitehurst. These are the exact same moves that you just crapped on the Bills for. Seattle just got lucky.


0-16 on the half assed efforts to get a QB resulting to playoff appearances.

Are you saying that drafting Lynch would not be half assed? I'm wondering the difference between drafting Lynch in the middle of the 1st vs. drafting Manuel and Losman in the middle of the 1st.


Think we can make it to 20 as we rebuild a defense for Rex?

Time will tell.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I may be one of the few, but I actually have a little more faith in Whaley than I've had in others in the past.

I do, too. And I'm one of the bigger haters of the Watkins draft trade.

[Skooby]

I may be one of the few, but I actually have a little more faith in Whaley than I've had in others in the past.

Buddy was a horrendous disappointment and Levy was led around the nose by Jauron, who had no business evaluating any kind of talent on offense.

Our previous GM's made some poor choices and were stuck, kinda like us in our current cap situation now & signing Tyrod.

[Joe Fo Sho]

So your solution for getting a franchise QB is what?

Trade for one? Virtually never happens
Sign one? Last one I can think of was Brees. I'd say Manning but he had his choice of where he wanted to go. They all do.

But not draft one?

The chances of drafting one are slim, yet there really is no other route, so we shouldn't try to draft one?

Draft one every year until you find what you need. Note that I never said to spend our 1st rounder every year on a QB.

Nothing ridiculous about that unless you can find a better method. Hell, I'm not sure we have much of a choice based on the odds.

I'm fine with drafting one, I'm even fine with drafting one in the 1st round this year if Whaley feels the right guy is there. I just want to draft a QB that will be given our full backing and resources in order to develop and mature. If there's not a guy like that in the draft, don't draft one. Drafting a potential franchise QB every year will reduce the amount of resources we have to develop each one, assuming you give them all an equal chance. This may actually reduce the chance of finding a franchise QB. Like I said, if we had drafted Brees with this method, we'd have cut him before he blossomed. How many other quarterbacks have there been that didn't 'get it' until year 3 or later? We'd have cut them all, every single one of them.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I wouldn't say you need to draft a QB every year in Round 1, but every year you don't have at least a QB who can get you to that next level you should be drafting a QB somewhere in the draft. Then as your QB ages, you should be drafting a QB every few years somewhere in the mid rounds as a potential successor or a guy who can come in and maybe win you some games because he'll be acclimated to the system. This can work and it can fail, New England Cassel, Indy Painter as examples.

Plus you should be drafting a QB in the first round more than twice in the past 20 years.

The Bills have used 5 1st round picks on quarterbacks in the past 20 years.

Johnson
Bledsoe
Losman (2 1sts)
Manuel

[X-Era]

I'm fine with drafting one, I'm even fine with drafting one in the 1st round this year if Whaley feels the right guy is there. I just want to draft a QB that will be given our full backing and resources in order to develop and mature. If there's not a guy like that in the draft, don't draft one. Drafting a potential franchise QB every year will reduce the amount of resources we have to develop each one, assuming you give them all an equal chance. This may actually reduce the chance of finding a franchise QB. Like I said, if we had drafted Brees with this method, we'd have cut him before he blossomed. How many other quarterbacks have there been that didn't 'get it' until year 3 or later? We'd have cut them all, every single one of them.
If you remember, SD let Brees walk.

We have 3 roster spots for a QB. Anyone who doesn't start gets TC reps, prep for games, scout team work, etc... I don't see any reason that spots 2 and 3 can't be populated with the current year or last years rookies.

Nothing can replace real game time experience. But, why not fill the #2 and #3 spots with guys that could develop into starters? And if the #2 or #3 guy isn't progressing each year, cut them and bring in another draftee.

The problem is that there really is no other option but to draft QB's until you get lucky. And if you buy into that assumption, you get better odds with more picks.

If we were to draft a 1st rounder, we should not do that unless we plan to start him in year two or one and let him develop on the field. But for next year we have the starter. And at that point, with the questions on contract and whether he will further grow, there is no reason not to draft #2 or #3. And if Tyrod is not the answer and we are stuck looking again next year, we would again go the draft.

Put it this way. I think it's a forgone conclusion that we are drafting a QB this year. And, I think the only way we won't be drafting one next year as well is if Tyrod is re-signed long term.

[Joe Fo Sho]

If you remember, SD let Brees walk.

Because they had another franchise-hopeful QB waiting in wings. Which proves my point. Good thing Rivers worked out or else they would have look like fools.


We have 3 roster spots for a QB. Anyone who doesn't start gets TC reps, prep for games, scout team work, etc... I don't see any reason that spots 2 and 3 can't be populated with the current year or last years rookies.

Nothing can replace real game time experience. But, why not fill the #2 and #3 spots with guys that could develop into starters? And if the #2 or #3 guy isn't progressing each year, cut them and bring in another draftee.

So with this strategy, you give less time to develop for the QBs that are drafted in lower rounds, which are exactly the QBs that need the development time. You're still giving up on QBs early, with the exception for one. Plus this means you put no value in having a veteran backup QB on your roster.


The problem is that there really is no other option but to draft QB's until you get lucky. And if you buy into that assumption, you get better odds with more picks.

If we were to draft a 1st rounder, we should not do that unless we plan to start him in year two or one and let him develop on the field. But for next year we have the starter. And at that point, with the questions on contract and whether he will further grow, there is no reason not to draft #2 or #3. And if Tyrod is not the answer and we are stuck looking again next year, we would again go the draft.

Put it this way. I think it's a forgone conclusion that we are drafting a QB this year. And, I think the only way we won't be drafting one next year as well is if Tyrod is re-signed long term.

I'm fine with drafting a QB this year.

I'd rather see how this year plays out before saying that we should draft a QB in 2017, though.

[swiper]

Listening to Phil Simms talk to Adam Schein on his cable program talking QBs as I post.

Simms going on and on and on about how great Paxton Lynch is. He used the superlative "tremendous" at least three times about Lynch.

Simms rates his top four QBs:

Wentz
Lynch
Goff
Hogan

in that order.

He says Hogan is >> Hackenburg & Prescott.

Now talking about Bills...

Simms says if Lynch is there the Bills should grab him at #19.

[For a reality check Simms also said the Broncos should think about picking up Mark Sanchez in the same interview.]

Thoughts about this?

[Joe Fo Sho]

Listening to Phil Simms talk to Adam Schein on his cable program talking QBs as I post.

Simms going on and on and on about how great Paxton Lynch is. He used the superlative "tremendous" at least three times about Lynch.

Simms rates his top four QBs:

Wentz
Lynch
Goff
Hogan

in that order.

He says Hogan is >> Hackenburg & Prescott.

Now talking about Bills...

Simms says if Lynch is there the Bills should grab him at #19.

[For a reality check Simms also said the Broncos should think about picking up Mark Sanchez in the same interview.]

Thoughts about this?

I hate Phil Simms, but if the Bills think Lynch can be a franchise guy they should draft him.

[stuckincincy]

Hindsight is 20/20, as Cam Newton would say.

Hindsight is 60/60. That way, history can be re-written.

[mdcas22]

heres what I would do, draft a QB until you find the guy, If Lynch is on there radar then take him at 19 and let him sit behind TT for a year unless he beats TT out right, either way I'd draft 1 this year and next year also, if by chance TT has another good year you could franchise him and then trade him, the Bills have a lot of options at the QB position just none of them are a sure thing. Lynch to me reminds me of a Big Ben with more athletic ability. A lot are scared because he played at Memphis instead of Alabama or Notre dame. Big Ben was drafted later too because of the same thing.

here are Bens college stats vs. Lynchs

bens is 1st
yards TD INT

<tbody>
Career
38
854
1304
65.5%
10,829
80
23
8.3
27
11
269
354
7
1.3

</tbody>

38 758 1205 62.9% 8865 59 23 7.4