Our offseason moves

[justasportsfan]

AFC EAST
Buffalo Bills

Players added (4):

DT Oliver Gibson (cut, CIN)
FB Damian Shelton
(FA, DNP in 2003)
OL Chris Villarial (FA, CHI)
CB Troy Vincent (FA, PHI)

Players lost (4):

G Ruben Brown (cut, CHI)
FB Sam Gash (FA, NO)
TE Dave Moore (cut, TB)
CB Antoine Winfield (FA, MIN)

Re-signed (5):

QB Travis Brown
DE Keith McKenzie
OL Lawrence Smith
OL Marques Sullivan
G Ross Tucker


http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2258226

[LtBillsFan66]

You're on a roll today.

Draft not included, I think the offseason was break-even.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by billsfanone
You're on a roll today.

Draft not included, I think the offseason was break-even.

I think you have to include the draft.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I think you have to include the draft.

I do? I was making a point about the moves without the draft. Like last year, we were improved greatly not counting the draft.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by billsfanone
I do? I was making a point about the moves without the draft. Like last year, we were improved greatly not counting the draft.

I guess I misunderstood you. I count the draft because it is an offseason event.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by billsfanone
You're on a roll today.

Same old threads for the last 3 days. It's freakin boring in OBD.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I guess I misunderstood you. I count the draft because it is an offseason event.

I do too. I'm just pointing out the FA signings and losses.

[Jan Reimers]

They forgot at least Morris and Polk as players lost.

[ShadowHawk7]

Seriously, we didn't need to sign Big Name Fa's this offseason. Good to great coaching could of taken us to the playoffs LAST year, with the talent we had.
I see it as:
Gibson is way better than Moore.
Vincent is an upgrade over Winfield.
Shelton is a slight to moderate downgrade to Gash.
Villairial breaks even with RB.
Coaching should be a HUGE upgrade from last year.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by ShadowHawk7
Seriously, we didn't need to sign Big Name Fa's this offseason. Good to great coaching could of taken us to the playoffs LAST year, with the talent we had.
I see it as:
Gibson is way better than Moore.
Vincent is an upgrade over Winfield.
Shelton is a slight to moderate downgrade to Gash.
Villairial breaks even with RB.
Coaching should be a HUGE upgrade from last year.


Vincent is a downgrade in my mind. We lose tackling for better hands. A loss in my opinion especially if we stick with our backed off corner scheme.

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

O-line coach was added as well..

Whats his name again??

[Samphin1]

Originally posted by DraftBoy



Vincent is a downgrade in my mind. We lose tackling for better hands. A loss in my opinion especially if we stick with our backed off corner scheme.

I would think you would almost have to play Vincent off. He is slower than Winfield too.

[The Spaz]

http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/4442.jpg
<b>Troy Vincent</b>

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/4442

http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/133453.jpg
<b>Antoine Winfield</b>

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133453

There isn't too much of a difference in the tackling numbers.

[McBFLO]

Originally posted by ShadowHawk7
Seriously, we didn't need to sign Big Name Fa's this offseason. Good to great coaching could of taken us to the playoffs LAST year, with the talent we had.
I see it as:
Gibson is way better than Moore.
Vincent is an upgrade over Winfield.
Shelton is a slight to moderate downgrade to Gash.
Villairial breaks even with RB.
Coaching should be a HUGE upgrade from last year.

I agree 100% that coaching will make a HUGE difference this year. If we had this staff last year, we would have been in the playoffs, no doubt about it!

[SABURZFAN]

for the second year in a row,we didn't address the Center position.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by SABURZFAN
for the second year in a row,we didn't address the Center position.

There's still June 1st.

[ScottLawrence]

Villariel doesn't break even with Ruben.... Believe me, Villariel is much better then Ruben is.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by ScottLawrence
Villariel doesn't break even with Ruben.... Believe me, Villariel is much better then Ruben is.

Not only that but Villarial is playing RG so he would be replacing Mike Pucillo and Ross Tucker not Ruben Brown.

[juice]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Vincent is a downgrade in my mind. We lose tackling for better hands. A loss in my opinion especially if we stick with our backed off corner scheme.

Vincent is an upgrade at corner.. A true corner makes the big play and that is an Int. at the corner spot.
Originally posted by ScottLawrence
Villariel doesn't break even with Ruben.... Believe me, Villariel is much better then Ruben is.

Ruben is better than Vallarial.. He's done alot more throughout his carreer, and consistantly is in front of a 1000 yd rusher.

[The Spaz]

Ruben is better than Vallarial.. He's done alot more throughout his carreer, and consistantly is in front of a 1000 yd rusher.

Your wrong and way overrate Ruben.

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Your wrong and way overrate Ruben.

You overrate your Own opinion on some threads... and what has Vallarie done to even be named in the same breath as the most consistant Bills lineman over his carreer.

RB was a warrior on the Bills teams that were average at best and he proved to be the cornerstone throughout that resulted in how many 1000 yd rushers?? More than Vallarie I'm sure...

How good was the Bears line over the last few seasons.. and who were their 1000 yd rushers.. the A-Train must've derailed... but this guy hasn't even proven he can play at a Pro Bowl level consistantly.

A few of You Fairweather fans must have forgotten the Dog-Days after Kelly, Reed, and Thurman were gone...

Who was the most consistent player at Any Bills Line position in History... THINK before You answer.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by juice
You overrate your Own opinion on some threads... and what has Vallarie done to even be named in the same breath as the most consistant Bills lineman over his carreer.

RB was a warrior on the Bills teams that were average at best and he proved to be the cornerstone throughout that resulted in how many 1000 yd rushers?? More than Vallarie I'm sure...

How good was the Bears line over the last few seasons.. and who were their 1000 yd rushers.. the A-Train must've derailed... but this guy hasn't even proven he can play at a Pro Bowl level consistantly.

A few of You Fairweather fans must have forgotten the Dog-Days after Kelly, Reed, and Thurman were gone...

Who was the most consistent player at Any Bills Line position in History... THINK before You answer.


Whatever you say.:rofl:

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Whatever you say.:rofl:

Is that an answer or another meaningful response... What has Vallarial done to deserve a single Pro Bowl vote much less Nine Pro Bowls in a row?

Vallarial seems to be an slightly above average OL.

[Dr. Who]

The key question is not past history, but present capacity. Was RB cut because he had lost something, because he was too much of an attitude problem? I don't know. He was an outstanding lineman who had an unfortunate tendency to take holding penalties. From all I have read, Villarial is tough and consistent, more of a run-blocker than a pass protector, rarely takes penalties.

Back to the original statement: why is Oliver Gibson compared to Dave Moore? Isn't the former a DT?

Also, one should take into account both the draft and the new coaching staff when evaluating change.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Dr. Who
Back to the original statement: why is Oliver Gibson compared to Dave Moore? Isn't the former a DT?

I was wondering the same thing. :scratch: There isn't any one player Gibson was brought in to replace and it certainly isn't a guy at a different position.

[juice]

Originally posted by Dr. Who
The key question is not past history, but present capacity. Was RB cut because he had lost something, because he was too much of an attitude problem? I don't know. He was an outstanding lineman who had an unfortunate tendency to take holding penalties. From all I have read, Villarial is tough and consistent, more of a run-blocker than a pass protector, rarely takes penalties.

Back to the original statement: why is Oliver Gibson compared to Dave Moore? Isn't the former a DT?

Also, one should take into account both the draft and the new coaching staff when evaluating change.

Good Point Doc

But the reason might have been a combination of things, excluding Attitude, but was not a financial possibility to the Bills at the cost at his age.

That still doesn't discount the fact that our entire line sucked last year and RB still made the Pro Bowl, even consideration on an offensive line that badly coached is more than Vallarial has done in his limited carreer.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by juice
Is that an answer or another meaningful response... What has Vallarial done to deserve a single Pro Bowl vote much less Nine Pro Bowls in a row?

Vallarial seems to be an slightly above average OL.

You're all over Ruben's jock so I can't say anything to change that.

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Your wrong and way overrate Ruben.

Not a very "Team Player" type post "Super Mod"... The Question still stands, What has Vallarial accomplished in his carreer?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by juice
Not a very "Team Player" type post "Super Mod"... The Question still stands, What has Vallarial accomplished in his carreer?

Villarial gives a good honest days work every week unlike Ruben who lhas lived off his reputaion thel ast 4-5 years.

[juice]

Yea, Ruben Brown was responsible for the O-Line woes over the past 4 yrs and not the Staff.. I guess he was the reason RJ took soo many sacks also.
Originally posted by The Spaz
Villarial gives a good honest days work every week unlike Ruben who lhas lived off his reputaion thel ast 4-5 years.

An Honest days work... sounds like another way of saying "Slightly Above Average"

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by juice
Yea, Ruben Brown was responsible for the O-Line woes over the past 4 yrs and not the Staff.. I guess he was the reason RJ took soo many sacks also.

An Honest days work... sounds like another way of saying "Slightly Above Average"

It's your opinion and and your entitled to it as everyone else is.

[The Spaz]

Not a very "Team Player" type post "Super Mod".

Wtf are you trying to imply or state with this comment?

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Wtf are you trying to imply or state with this comment?

I'd expect a more in depth post from a "Super" moderator... not just a statement trying to shoot down any opinions that aren't mainstream or in agreement with your own.

This type Moderation will change this from the BillZone to the BillsClones.

I'm sure there are interesting opinions besides your Own. There is no "I" in "Team"... Team Player.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by juice
I'd expect a more in depth post from a "Super" moderator... not just a statement trying to shoot down any opinions that aren't mainstream or in agreement with your own.

This type Moderation will change this from the BillZone to the BillsClones.

I'm sure there are interesting opinions besides your Own. There is no "I" in "Team"... Team Player.

Like I said you are all over Rubens nuts so I can't change your opinion on him.

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Like I said you are all over Rubens nuts so I can't change your opinion on him.


Originally posted by The Spaz
You're all over Ruben's jock so I can't say anything to change that.

Elevate Your Mind... and get it off of RB's Balls.

[The Spaz]

This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

Would a Real Moderator please stand up... A Moderator using Moderation through the Ignore List... Your Fired!

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
Would a Real Moderator please stand up... A Moderator using Moderation through the Ignore List... Your Fired!
Knock it off with the personal attacks :rolleyes:

Originally posted by juice
Yea, Ruben Brown was responsible for the O-Line woes over the past 4 yrs and not the Staff.. I guess he was the reason RJ took soo many sacks also. Spaz never said anything of the sort. Putting words in someone's mouth is a sure way to lose a debate...just shows you wanna argue without a point. Yeah, Ruben was usually our best O-lineman over the past few years but our O-line as a whole sucked. Best of a sucky bunch really isn't saying much. maybe some people do underrate him (I know his penalties are overblown slightly) but it's crazy to talk as if he's going to go down in history as our best ever O-lineman

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
You're all over Ruben's jock so I can't say anything to change that.


Originally posted by The Spaz
Like I said you are all over Rubens nuts so I can't change your opinion on him.

I take references to riding Nuts a little Personal Phil... But I guess thats fine as long as you have a Title.


Originally posted by The_Philster
Knock it off with the personal attacks :rolleyes:
Spaz never said anything of the sort. Putting words in someone's mouth is a sure way to lose a debate...just shows you wanna argue without a point. Yeah, Ruben was usually our best O-lineman over the past few years but our O-line as a whole sucked. Best of a sucky bunch really isn't saying much. maybe some people do underrate him (I know his penalties are overblown slightly) but it's crazy to talk as if he's going to go down in history as our best ever O-lineman

Thanks Phil you just made my point.. Holding penalties are a part of playing the position and RB made the Pro Bowl as our Best Lineman over the last 9 seasons doing just that, Holding ... and my suggestion that RB is better than Villaria is shotdown as Just "Wrong" by a Super Moderator at that... No explanation or reasoning behind his point.

Look at the original Post of the SuperModerator... are you sure he's not the one Taking things to a personal level?

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
Thanks Phil you just made my point.. Holding penalties are a part of playing the position and RB made the Pro Bowl as our Best Lineman over the last 9 seasons doing just that, Holding ... and my suggestion that RB is better than Villaria is shotdown as Just "Wrong" by a Super Moderator at that... No explanation or reasoning behind his point.
Holding penalties are not a part of the position. Ruben made the Pro Bowl based on name recognition...it's mostly a popularity contest. How can you take the selection process seriously when Tasker gets named to the Pro Bowl as a special teamer in a year he played almost very little special teams (95) and there were other players more deserving of the honor? As far as comparing Ruben and Villarial, it's hard to do right now. We have yet to see Villarial play in a Bills uniform...I know I won't judge him as better or worse until I do because I haven't seen him play all that much.

Personal attacks are wrong no matter who they come from...be it from you or Spaz or anyone else. I'm not trying to play favorites.

[juice]

Originally posted by The_Philster
Holding penalties are not a part of the position.

Effective holding is tought by the best Position coaches... The same as the Bump and run used by Def. back coaches. Not getting flagged for holding while giving your team an advantage is where the skill comes in.

Ask any effective O-lineman and they will say there is holding on any play.

Other Players also have a say in the Pro Bowl selections so the Award doesn't completly lack Merit.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
Effective holding is tought by the best Position coaches... The same as the Bump and run used by Def. back coaches. Not getting flagged for holding while giving your team an advantage is where the skill comes in.

Ask any effective O-lineman and they will say there is holding on any play.

The best O-linemen don't get caught holding, though ;)
Originally posted by juice
Other Players also have a say in the Pro Bowl selections so the Award doesn't completly lack Merit.

1/3 from the fans...who for the most part don't judge O-line play...go by big names
1/3 from the players...many of which vote for buddies..whether they deserve it or not
1/3 from the coaches...the most honest and based on merit of the 3 methods of voting.

[juice]

Originally posted by The_Philster
The best O-linemen don't get caught holding, though ;)

1/3 from the fans...who for the most part don't judge O-line play...go by big names
1/3 from the players...many of which vote for buddies..whether they deserve it or not
1/3 from the coaches...the most honest and based on merit of the 3 methods of voting.

Any Lineman who hasn't been called for holding must be playing DT.

Alot of Fans outside of the Buffalo area must really like RB, because Bills fans seemed to think he has been a Cancer to the team over his 10 yr carreer in Buffalo.

Players, I think, are another Credible source.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
Alot of Fans outside of the Buffalo area must really like RB, because Bills fans seemed to think he has been a Cancer to the team over his 10 yr carreer in Buffalo.
:huh: I think we'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in our mouths...no one has said anything of the sort. And like I said, for the most part fans go by big names. Ruben goes one year and fans around the league learn his name and automatically vote for him.

Originally posted by juice
Players, I think, are another Credible source.

When I see them talk about doing favors for buddies (if you and your teammates vote for me, I and mine will vote for you), they lose credibility to some of us.

[juice]

Well I guess it has all come down to a "Conspiracy Theory" and "Name Recognition", that is why RB wont make the HOF and why his #79 shouldn't be retired.

RB gets no Love at any Bills Board that I've seen... Which Bills player has the next most Pro Bowls: Kelly, Thurman, Reed.. Whomever it is I bet is headed to the HOF.

Different standards for different positions is the only thing I can come up with.

Along with #79 they should also put #32 up on the Wall as well as #83.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
Well I guess it has all come down to a "Conspiracy Theory" and "Name Recognition", that is why RB wont make the HOF and why his #79 shouldn't be retired.

RB gets no Love at any Bills Board that I've seen... Which Bills player has the next most Pro Bowls: Kelly, Thurman, Reed.. Whomever it is I bet is headed to the HOF.

Different standards for different positions is the only thing I can come up with.

Pro Bowls will always be known as popularity contests until they exclude fans from having any input. The only people who should be voting are coaches, personnel men, and writers....no conspiracy theory in any way, shape, or form. :cynic:
Originally posted by juice
Along with #79 they should also put #32 up on the Wall as well as #83.

:huh: OJ is on the Wall of Fame already..has been since 1980 http://www.buffalobills.com/history/index.cfm?cont_id=62965
Andre will be in time as well and will also be in the HOF.

[SABURZFAN]

:movie:

[juice]

Originally posted by The_Philster
Pro Bowls will always be known as popularity contests until they exclude fans from having any input. The only people who should be voting are coaches, personnel men, and writers....no conspiracy theory in any way, shape, or form. :cynic:

:huh: OJ is on the Wall of Fame already..has been since 1980 http://www.buffalobills.com/history/index.cfm?cont_id=62965
Andre will be in time as well and will also be in the HOF.

I dont think that the fan vote is how RB got into the Pro Bowl all of those years... Unless fans from all over the country made a concerted effort to vote in a Guard on a small market team Year after Year.

I was speaking of the #'s being retired.

[The_Philster]

You can't retire that many numbers in the NFL. :cynic:
Originally posted by juice
I dont think that the fan vote is how RB got into the Pro Bowl all of those years... Unless fans from all over the country made a concerted effort to vote in a Guard on a small market team Year after Year. I'm understand what Spaz was getting frustrated about...repeating myself over and over and over and over and over. It's called name recognition.

[juice]

Originally posted by The_Philster
You can't retire that many numbers in the NFL. :cynic:I'm understand what Spaz was getting frustrated about...repeating myself over and over and over and over and over. It's called name recognition.

What fans voted him in.. this is a small market organization.. We dont have the fan base Nationwide like the Cowboys or Redskins.

Quite honestly I have never heard of a player getting in through Name Recognition 5 or 6 times in a row... You mentioned Tasker one year but who else goes in consecutive years through the recognition clause?

I've heard the "Recognition" theory before, but it just doesn't hold water after Nine Pro Bowls and RB playing on a small market team... Maybe 1 or 2x but not every year besides his rookie year.

OJ hasn't played in 25 years, has his #32 been retired yet?

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
What fans voted him in.. this is a small market organization.. We dont have the fan base Nationwide like the Cowboys or Redskins.

Quite honestly I have never heard of a player getting in through Name Recognition 5 or 6 times in a row... You mentioned Tasker one year but who else goes in consecutive years through the recognition clause?

I've heard the "Recognition" theory before, but it just doesn't hold water after Nine Pro Bowls and RB playing on a small market team... Maybe 1 or 2x but not every year besides his rookie year.

I give up :hitself:
Originally posted by juice
OJ hasn't played in 25 years, has his #32 been retired yet? Like fans are not going to cause an uproar about retiring a murderer's number. :rolleyes: Some fans want his name removed from the Wall of Fame.

[McBFLO]

Originally posted by juice
Good Point Doc

But the reason might have been a combination of things, excluding Attitude, but was not a financial possibility to the Bills at the cost at his age.

That still doesn't discount the fact that our entire line sucked last year and RB still made the Pro Bowl, even consideration on an offensive line that badly coached is more than Vallarial has done in his limited carreer.

Can you honestly say that RB deserved to go to the Pro Bowl the last 2 or 3 years? I can't.


Originally posted by The Spaz
Villarial gives a good honest days work every week unlike Ruben who lhas lived off his reputaion thel ast 4-5 years.

Amen to that!


Originally posted by juice
I'd expect a more in depth post from a "Super" moderator... not just a statement trying to shoot down any opinions that aren't mainstream or in agreement with your own.

This type Moderation will change this from the BillZone to the BillsClones.

I'm sure there are interesting opinions besides your Own. There is no "I" in "Team"... Team Player.

I gotta throw this in..."Well, there ain't no 'We" either." ~Leon

[TigerJ]

On Ruben versus Chris Villarrial: I think Ruben was/is a good offensive lineman. I doubt he really meritted all of his pro bowl selections, though he certainly deserves some of them. It's al little difficult to accurately assess how much of the line's problems in the last couple years was Ruben's fault or the fault of a weak center and right guard. Maybe to some extent Ruben was tryhing to cover for their shorcomings rather than handling his own responsibilities. His holding penalties have been annoying over the years. I think he developed that reputation early on and with that label hung on him, refs have always been looking at him a little more closely than they might some. Regardless of the reason, he has to take some responsibility for all the calls. I don't think Villarial is as athletic or technically sound as RB in some ways. I think at this point in time he might be stronger. He is known as a scrapper. Run blocking is his strength as it was/is Ruben's. I think I'd rather have Villarial at this point in time because he is younger and stronger, and in this day and age of behemoth defensive tackles, that helps a lot. Ruben has a great personality though.

[McBFLO]

Just forget about him Philster, Spaz, etc. You'll never convince this guy to even consider the idea that the Pro Bowl voting is a popularity contest. On top of it all, Juice has to go about the whole situation in a very condescending way. Not even fun to have a discussion with a person like that IMO.

[juice]

If he was chosen by other players and coaches then he deserves to be in all nine Pro Bowls.


Originally posted by pepperkorn
On top of it all, Juice has to go about the whole situation in a very condescending way. Not even fun to have a discussion with a person like that IMO.

Read the entire Thread and then form your opinion as to when it began to descend into personal attacks... Your fellow zoner Spaz began to become fixated on RB Jock strap size.

Sorry if it gets a little rough for you Pepper, but the "Fun" comes from reading and commenting on the ENTIRE Thread, not just the last 3 posts.

[McBFLO]

Originally posted by juice
If he was chosen by other players and coaches then he deserves to be in all nine Pro Bowls.



Read the entire Thread and then form your opinion as to when it began to descend into personal attacks... Your fellow zoner Spaz began to become fixated on RB Jock strap size.

Sorry if it gets a little rough for you Pepper, but the "Fun" comes from reading and commenting on the ENTIRE Thread, not just the last 3 posts.

I read the entire thread before I made that comment. And nobody made any coment about RBs jock stap size other than yourself. So, if there's anyone who is obsessed with jock straps, it's yourself, for bringing up the size of it.

So, I gather from what you're saying is that all those coaches and players who voted for Ruben thought he played better (because thats what making the pro bowl should really be about, performance) than all the other guards in the AFC (other than the other guard or 2 that made it)? Or do you think the fact that RB being such a good, friendly guy, who I'm sure has many many friends throughout the league, and who had been there 5 or 6 straight years had anything to do with it?

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by pepperkorn
I read the entire thread before I made that comment. And nobody made any coment about RBs jock stap size other than yourself. So, if there's anyone who is obsessed with jock straps, it's yourself, for bringing up the size of it.

So, I gather from what you're saying is that all those coaches and players who voted for Ruben thought he played better (because thats what making the pro bowl should really be about, performance) than all the other guards in the AFC (other than the other guard or 2 that made it)? Or do you think the fact that RB being such a good, friendly guy, who I'm sure has many many friends throughout the league, and who had been there 5 or 6 straight years had anything to do with it?

Nice post, pepperkorn :bf1:
Besides, it's not like he has to get a majority of the votes. Fans recognize his name so he gets a lot of votes and he has a lot of friends who give him votes. I can only respect the integrity of the coaches' voting. Heck, in the NHL, I remember Mario Lemieux getting named to the All-Star game...in a season he started playing in late December-early January...he played a total of 10 games that season by the time the votes were tabulated. How can you take any selection process seriously when fan votes are involved?

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
You're all over Ruben's jock so I can't say anything to change that.


Originally posted by The Spaz
Like I said you are all over Rubens nuts so I can't change your opinion on him.

Pep.. You must have looked over these posts.

You should ask Spaz what it takes to be a Supermoderator.. or how to use the Ignore feature.

Hardcore Bills Talk in this forum.. Sorry Pep I'm just here to talk Football.

[McBFLO]

You are the one who brought up the "size" topic though and blamed it on him, remember?


Originally posted by juice

Read the entire Thread and then form your opinion as to when it began to descend into personal attacks... Your fellow zoner Spaz began to become fixated on RB Jock strap size.

[McBFLO]

Juice, it's not that I dislike RB or think he was a bad player, because he was a good player. I just don't think he was deserving of 8 straight Pro Bowls, or to have his number retired for that matter. On the other hand, Thurman should DEFINITELY have his number retired.

[SABURZFAN]

Originally posted by The Spaz


There's still June 1st.

i hear you Spaz but how many stopgaps are we gonna go through before we get a long term?these guys aren't gonna make us forget k.hull anytime soon.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by SABURZFAN
i hear you Spaz but how many stopgaps are we gonna go through before we get a long term?these guys aren't gonna make us forget k.hull anytime soon.

Not many people will. Kent Hull was awesome. The Raiders are loaded at center I beleive and they will probably drop one of them.

[SABURZFAN]

i guess i'll have to take a look at the 05 NFL Draft candidates.:(

[McBFLO]

Originally posted by The_Philster
Nice post, pepperkorn :bf1:
Besides, it's not like he has to get a majority of the votes. Fans recognize his name so he gets a lot of votes and he has a lot of friends who give him votes. I can only respect the integrity of the coaches' voting. Heck, in the NHL, I remember Mario Lemieux getting named to the All-Star game...in a season he started playing in late December-early January...he played a total of 10 games that season by the time the votes were tabulated. How can you take any selection process seriously when fan votes are involved?

Thanks Philster. I like voting and will as long as they allow it, but I agree with you totally on this. I'm a die hard football fan and keep track of the entire league (fantasy footbal makes ya), so I have a pretty good idea of who I'm voting for and why. But, the casual fan who stumbles onto the site and votes for all the big name players definitely has a negative impact on the selection process.

[juice]

Originally posted by pepperkorn
Juice, it's not that I dislike RB or think he was a bad player, because he was a good player. I just don't think he was deserving of 8 straight Pro Bowls, or to have his number retired for that matter. On the other hand, Thurman should DEFINITELY have his number retired.

Then you should have cast your vote for another OG or one who also had "name recognition"... Unfortunatly we can only go by the record books and take the opinion of Coaches, Players, and Yes, Other Fans who thought he was deserving of the Honor.

Are you Spaz?
Originally posted by pepperkorn
You are the one who brought up the "size" topic though and blamed it on him, remember?

[McBFLO]

No, I cast my vote for a more deserving G. RB was a turnstile last year who committed holding penalties just about every game. I didn't vote for him.

[juice]

Originally posted by pepperkorn
I just don't think he was deserving of 8 straight Pro Bowls.

I agree, he was deserving of Nine straight.

I think Hull might have gone to 5 or so Pro Bowls so I can Honestly say that RB should be mentioned with the Bills all time great Lineman with 9 out of 10 years as an All Pro.

[McBFLO]

Originally posted by juice
I agree, he was deserving of Nine straight.


You're entitled to your opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[juice]

Originally posted by pepperkorn
Just forget about him Philster, Spaz, etc. On top of it all, Juice has to go about the whole situation in a very condescending way. Not even fun to have a discussion with a person like that IMO.

I hope I wasn't too condescending... but I can respect others opinions and debate them without initiating Personal attacks, and can agree to disagree with opposing points of view without calling other posters Dick Riders then running to the Ignore feature.

A little bit of "JIVE" keeps the Board LIVE... and in the off-season things can get a little slow and the discussion kinda dead.. but There is no Ill-Will intended by most ADULT posters here, But a few have a harder time taking half the trash they dish out.

When these immature hotheads call ME out I just give as much as I get, without going overboard.

Stay Opinionated without getting Aggravated...

Nice Debate Pep.

[McBFLO]

Sounds good Juice, no hard feelings here

[thefixer74]

Originally posted by The Spaz


There's still June 1st. :pray: