Open letter to the Amigos

[Ebenezer]

Dear Amigos,

Since I was missing of the last few weeks I'll address this upfront (without reading through the 20,000 posts). Congrats on the naming of JP Losman as the Bills new starting QB. Since, DB is not even going to be on the roster my point of starting DB for six games in 2005 is now moot.

You are correct. GM Tom Donahoe decided that you are correct and that JP is better for the team than DB. TD agreed with you. Congrats!

Just remember. If JP sucks it was you who wanted him over DB. TD agreed and went with you. Thus, you leave no room for complaint.

If JP is great; you get the praise. If JP sucks - you wanted him. And, since TD agreed with you then you can't rip TD without ripping yourselves.

As a Bills fan I hope that the kid does well. As a realist, I feel this is a step backwards and the real chance that the Bills had of making the playoffs next year has been removed. I hope I am wrong.

Eb

[BAM]

I'm not sold on the move either but I have faith. :pray:

[dannyek71]

I am, DB proved over his career that he could not win the big game

[Tatonka]

you are now blacklisted from the JPD for calling out former amigos. :mad:

the amigos was a fine institution that kept fighting for the release of drew bledsoe until the bitter end.. now drew "i am not a back up in this league, especially to jp" bledsoe can have his great 6 games in Dallas, then kill them.

JP will be perfect. he can do no wrong.. if we lose.. the JPD is committed to finding another portion on the team to blame it on, as we have witness for 3 years.

we are strong an united. your bitter and weak attempts to push us into a corner will not be tolerated.

Signed -
President of the JPD
Tatonka.


:D

[Earthquake Enyart]

C'mon, Eb. They'll turn on TD like a pack of wild jackals for not having Brett Favre here backing JP up..

[Ebenezer]

you are now blacklisted from the JPD for calling out former amigos. :mad:

the amigos was a fine institution that kept fighting for the release of drew bledsoe until the bitter end.. now drew "i am not a back up in this league, especially to jp" bledsoe can have his great 6 games in Dallas, then kill them.

JP will be perfect. he can do no wrong.. if we lose.. the JPD is committed to finding another portion on the team to blame it on, as we have witness for 3 years.

we are strong an united. your bitter and weak attempts to push us into a corner will not be tolerated.

Signed -
President of the JPD
Tatonka.


:D
DB got $14mil to suck for Dallas...still would have given the Bills a better chance of making the playoffs. Better hope JP puts up numbers as well as DB did last year...with what appears to be a weaker OL.

[Ebenezer]

C'mon, Eb. They'll turn on TD like a pack of wild jackals for not having Brett Favre here backing JP up..
...and the failure of not getting Pace and Jones here as bookend tackles don't forget!

[Tatonka]

either way.. that is not jps fault if TD doesnt make sure the line is improved or there is a good back up qb.. he better do one or the other.. or both.. if the line sucks.. then we will need a good qb when jp gets killed.. tds fault.. if he improves the oline, the it is less likely that we will need a stud at backup qb...

EB.. you just couldnt wait to get back and cry for bledsoe one more time could you.. :rofl:

[don137]

With the way the Bills are set up (great ST, defense and running game) the QB of the Bills will be in a role of 'don't screw it up' and not 'carry this team on your back to victory.' As a result, I feel the Bills could make the playoffs with JP as QB. The unknown is if JP could lose games for the Bills by making the plethora of mistakes the same way Bledsoe was known to make.

[DraftBoy]

Dear Amigos,


Just remember. If JP sucks it was you who wanted him over DB. TD agreed and went with you. Thus, you leave no room for complaint.

If JP is great; you get the praise. If JP sucks - you wanted him. And, since TD agreed with you then you can't rip TD without ripping yourselves.

As a Bills fan I hope that the kid does well. As a realist, I feel this is a step backwards and the real chance that the Bills had of making the playoffs next year has been removed. I hope I am wrong.

Eb

These last three statements are well said and I completely agree with them. With JP we do have a worse chance of securing a playoff spot next season but I do feel long term it is the better option for this team.

VP of JPD
Draftboy

[Ebenezer]

either way.. that is not jps fault if TD doesnt make sure the line is improved or there is a good back up qb.. he better do one or the other.. or both.. if the line sucks.. then we will need a good qb when jp gets killed.. tds fault.. if he improves the oline, the it is less likely that we will need a stud at backup qb...

EB.. you just couldnt wait to get back and cry for bledsoe one more time could you.. :rofl:
I'm not crying for Bledsoe...there were three options on the roster and I felt that DB gave them the best chance of making the playoffs in 2005. Others may be happy with handing the reigns over to JP and possibly waiting another 2 or more years to make the playoffs. I'm more demanding and want the Bills to make the playoffs in 2005. The Amgios and FO obviously thought that JP can do better than 9-7. For them to be proven correct, he has to go 10-6 (barring serious injuries to key personnel and all that jazz). We'll see.

[DraftBoy]

I'm not crying for Bledsoe...there were three options on the roster and I felt that DB gave them the best chance of making the playoffs in 2005. Others may be happy with handing the reigns over to JP and possibly waiting another 2 or more years to make the playoffs. I'm more demanding and want the Bills to make the playoffs in 2005. The Amgios and FO obviously thought that JP can do better than 9-7. For them to be proven correct, he has to go 10-6 (barring serious injuries to key personnel and all that jazz). We'll see.


My question is do you exchange short term success for prolonged long term failure? Yea we may have made the playoffs in 05 but also by your logic we would then be 2 years away from the playoffs and not make it to 07 and by then alot of our key personell will be on the downside of their career is they are still here due to contracts expiring and such.

[Tatonka]

what was so special about drews performance that any ****ty qb couldnt do?

was it how he played in big games? was it how he didnt listen to what the coaches told him to do regularly.. was it the turnovers and sacks he took or the lack of mobility?

with all of drews ****ing experience.. you know what it got us? a big stinking egg bomb performance in a game against back ups.. it got us tv coverage of that same stupid ass face that bledsoe made when he stood on the sidelines after sucking ass the whole damn game.. it got us a big pile of nothing resembling playoffs..

bledsoe did not get us to 9-7.. the team got us to 9-7... bledsoes individual performance was nothing more than bottom of the rung, average play.. as his season qb rating shows.. 76.0 rating.. which is not a surprise, considering that is his whole career average as well.. vinny testaverde could do exactly what drew did.. along with a whole slew of other qbs.. including JP.

do you think the team wants to take a step backwards next year? hell no.. they made the best decision for the team... just like MM and TD said.. bledsoe took us as far as we could go .. and that was close to the playoffs.. but just not close enough to anything else.

[Ebenezer]

My question is do you exchange short term success for prolonged long term failure? Yea we may have made the playoffs in 05 but also by your logic we would then be 2 years away from the playoffs and not make it to 07 and by then alot of our key personell will be on the downside of their career is they are still here due to contracts expiring and such.
I can't disagree with that...however, as I said midseason, MM has a responsibility to the other 52 guys on the roster to teach them to win; it is not just about JP and DB. I don't think the other 52 are there yet. I can't be convinced because of the schedule down the stretch. IMO, it was more important to bring DB back, play a tougher schedule and get the team some playoff run. That helps the other 52 and helps the transition to JP. Yes, I would rather have gone 10-6 and made the playoffs under DB and then turn it over to JP in 2006. Even if the team had not made the playoffs in 2006. The message now being sent is that JP can add that little thing to push this team into the playoffs. That is a huge toll to pay for a kid with 5 NFL passes to his name (and don't even bring up Roethelisberger - the kid sucked down the stretch).

[Tatonka]

and don't even bring up Roethelisberger - the kid sucked down the stretch.

yeah.. he was very bledsoe-esque..

he sucked right up to the championship game.. which is something this team would never have gotten to with bledsoe.

[DraftBoy]

what was so special about drews performance that any ****ty qb couldnt do?

was it how he played in big games? was it how he didnt listen to what the coaches told him to do regularly.. was it the turnovers and sacks he took or the lack of mobility?

with all of drews ****ing experience.. you know what it got us? a big stinking egg bomb performance in a game against back ups.. it got us tv coverage of that same stupid ass face that bledsoe made when he stood on the sidelines after sucking ass the whole damn game.. it got us a big pile of nothing resembling playoffs..

bledsoe did not get us to 9-7.. the team got us to 9-7... bledsoes individual performance was nothing more than bottom of the rung, average play.. as his season qb rating shows.. 76.0 rating.. which is not a surprise, considering that is his whole career average as well.. vinny testaverde could do exactly what drew did.. along with a whole slew of other qbs.. including JP.

do you think the team wants to take a step backwards next year? hell no.. they made the best decision for the team... just like MM and TD said.. bledsoe took us as far as we could go .. and that was close to the playoffs.. but just not close enough to anything else.


See its this mentality alot have a problem with including myself. How can he blamed solely for a loss but not be included for a win, he played well in many of our wins and to say he deserves no credit is not only crazy but just wrong.

[Tatonka]

he is the leader of the team.. we needed him to put points on the board.. he didnt.. he played like crap.. he is the qb.. and qbs get blamed.. that is life.. tough **** for drew.

when we won.. drew was good in a couple of those games.. but the majority of games we won, drew was just average.. he did what any back up could have done.

[DraftBoy]

he is the leader of the team.. we needed him to put points on the board.. he didnt.. he played like crap.. he is the qb.. and qbs get blamed.. that is life.. tough **** for drew.

when we won.. drew was good in a couple of those games.. but the majority of games we won, drew was just average.. he did what any back up could have done.

You still didnt answer my question as to why he can get sole credit for a loss and yet no credit for a win.

[Tatonka]

where did i say drew lost the game by himself?

[Ebenezer]

what was so special about drews performance that any ****ty qb couldnt do?

was it how he played in big games? was it how he didnt listen to what the coaches told him to do regularly.. was it the turnovers and sacks he took or the lack of mobility?

with all of drews ****ing experience.. you know what it got us? a big stinking egg bomb performance in a game against back ups.. it got us tv coverage of that same stupid ass face that bledsoe made when he stood on the sidelines after sucking ass the whole damn game.. it got us a big pile of nothing resembling playoffs..

bledsoe did not get us to 9-7.. the team got us to 9-7... bledsoes individual performance was nothing more than bottom of the rung, average play.. as his season qb rating shows.. 76.0 rating.. which is not a surprise, considering that is his whole career average as well.. vinny testaverde could do exactly what drew did.. along with a whole slew of other qbs.. including JP.

do you think the team wants to take a step backwards next year? hell no.. they made the best decision for the team... just like MM and TD said.. bledsoe took us as far as we could go .. and that was close to the playoffs.. but just not close enough to anything else.
like I said...he took them to 9-7. Giving the team over to JP means they and you believe the Bills will be at least 10-6 next year. He better perform up to your expectations.

[Tatonka]

drew never lost a game all by himself.. i dont know why we have to repeat that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

but he sucked ass the worst.. regularly..

i dont get why that is so hard to grasp?

bottom line is this..

the bills brass saw the last three years.. they saw the same **** play from the qb spot, especially when the team needed good play the most.. and they determined that a kid with zero experience can do a better job than a 12 vet with a career rating of 76... and i agree.. the team will be better this year at the qb spot as well as down the road..

[DraftBoy]

where did i say drew lost the game by himself?


So your saying at no time did you place the loss solely on Drew's shoulders? I know I did.

[DraftBoy]

and i agree.. the team will be better this year at the qb spot as well as down the road..


I disagree with that, the team will not be better this year we will prolly finish between 6-10 and 9-7, personally I would prefer 6-10 bc you can learn alot more from losses than wins. I expect no playoff spot next season and extremely erradic play and decision making from our QB.

[Tatonka]

like I said...he took them to 9-7. Giving the team over to JP means they and you believe the Bills will be at least 10-6 next year. He better perform up to your expectations.

and like I said.. jp is not responsible for making sure the OLine is taken care of.. making sure he has a healthy TE and making sure he has a 3rd wr that can catch the ball.. i have confidence that by training camp, those things will be worked out..

but jp can do whatever drew could have done for us.. pretty much anyone in the nfl can put up 150 yards a td and an int/fumble in a game..

i love that last line too..

"HE BETTER PERFORM UP TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS."

or what? :rofl:

if he doesnt.. then oh well.. we suck again.. just like we have sucked under drew's watch.. and we will all cheer again the next year..

[Tatonka]

So your saying at no time did you place the loss solely on Drew's shoulders? I know I did.

what kind of idiot thinks that an entire game can truely be decided by one person and one person alone.. someone has to intercept drews bad passes.. someone has to miss a block.. someone has to not catch a ball..


I disagree with that, the team will not be better this year we will prolly finish between 6-10 and 9-7, personally I would prefer 6-10 bc you can learn alot more from losses than wins. I expect no playoff spot next season and extremely erradic play and decision making from our QB.

that kind of attitude surprises me.. if you need to find a replacement VP for the JPD, then do so.. if you dont believe that jp is the savior and will be the best qb the bills have ever had.. starting this year.. then maybe you just need to be a regular JPD and not the VP.. i need more enthusiasm and belief from my right hand man.

:shakeno:

[Ebenezer]

if you dont believe that jp is the savior and will be the best qb the bills have ever had.. starting this year..


OMG...ever hear of a guy named Jim Kelly?? JP isn't even Joe Ferguson yet. Take some valium...your sarcasm sucks.

[DraftBoy]

that kind of attitude surprises me.. if you need to find a replacement VP for the JPD, then do so.. if you dont believe that jp is the savior and will be the best qb the bills have ever had.. starting this year.. then maybe you just need to be a regular JPD and not the VP.. i need more enthusiasm and belief from my right hand man.

:shakeno:


Im sorry I dont share your same attitude towards JP. We have many more needs ahead of QB to be fixed. Id put OL, Lack of DL pass rush, and Defensive Backfield, as issues that needed to be fixed prior to a QB change. The FO felt QB was a quicker fix and they made it. I agree it shoul of been done but in no way will it help the team short term. If you want me gone, Ill go happily.

[Ebenezer]

Im sorry I dont share your same attitude towards JP. We have many more needs ahead of QB to be fixed. Id put OL, Lack of DL pass rush, and Defensive Backfield, as issues that needed to be fixed prior to a QB change. The FO felt QB was a quicker fix and they made it. I agree it shoul of been done but in no way will it help the team short term. If you want me gone, Ill go happily.
oh...a break in the rank of the amigos already...and JP hasn't even played a down as the starter!!

[DraftBoy]

oh...a break in the rank of the amigos already...and JP hasn't even played a down as the starter!!


I was not an amigo please do not loop me in with that bunch, I think I may have signed up for this organization too quickly

[Iehoshua]

OMG...ever hear of a guy named Jim Kelly?? JP isn't even Joe Ferguson yet. Take some valium...your sarcasm sucks.
http://www.suwanneesheriff.com/siren_animated.gif
Please refrain from making remarks that could be potentially interpreted as disparaging toward JP. Consider this a warning. Next violation will result in a citation.

[Typ0]

Dear Amigos,

Since I was missing of the last few weeks I'll address this upfront (without reading through the 20,000 posts). Congrats on the naming of JP Losman as the Bills new starting QB. Since, DB is not even going to be on the roster my point of starting DB for six games in 2005 is now moot.

You are correct. GM Tom Donahoe decided that you are correct and that JP is better for the team than DB. TD agreed with you. Congrats!

Just remember. If JP sucks it was you who wanted him over DB. TD agreed and went with you. Thus, you leave no room for complaint.

If JP is great; you get the praise. If JP sucks - you wanted him. And, since TD agreed with you then you can't rip TD without ripping yourselves.

As a Bills fan I hope that the kid does well. As a realist, I feel this is a step backwards and the real chance that the Bills had of making the playoffs next year has been removed. I hope I am wrong.

Eb


So let me get this straight....you would have the team go through camp and develop a playbook around DB and then six weeks into the season implement a whole new playbook based on JP? I'm sorry Eb...but this is the most assinine thing I have ever heard you say.

For me, the decision to cut DB was easy....he just plain cannot get it done consistently. DB 100% plays horrible against a winning team. We don't know what we have in JP. 33% he stinks, 33% he's average, 33% he's the next Ben R. Looks to me like a no brainer. 66% JP performs better than DB...and the other 33% we're left with the same as DB. What do we need DB for?

[mybills]

I don't know how JP will perform, but I sure as hell knew how Blindsoe would. That's why I didn't want him to begin with. He can't take direction, does not play for the team, will not even listen to Parcels (again) because in his mind and actions..it's all about Drew. Screw that! :down:!!!

[Tatonka]

OMG...ever hear of a guy named Jim Kelly?? JP isn't even Joe Ferguson yet. Take some valium...your sarcasm sucks.
holy christ.. the fact that you even took the time to write that makes it the most assinine post i have seen you make in a long time.. wow..

your post sucks.

and Draftboy.. your a grown man.. if you want to leave.. leave.. either you can handle putting your head in the sand and saying JP is the greatest thing since sliced bread as the ostrich club did.. or you cant.. it is your choice.. i thought you knew how this worked.. maybe you dont.. i dont know.

the JPD is the new version of the ostrich club.. i got tired of being logical and rational when it came to discecting drews horrible play for 3 years.. only to have every point deflected and blamed on someone or something else.. drew didnt suck.. the wind was blowing.. drew didnt suck.. the ref missed a call.. drew didnt suck.. it was everything else but him..

so now.. i am taking that stance.. jp can do no wrong and it doesnt matter what happens. :D

people really need to lighten up... seriously..

i am going away for a while i think. :bikerbabe

[Tatonka]

I was not an amigo please do not loop me in with that bunch, I think I may have signed up for this organization too quickly
you might have.. because you are already convinced that jp will bring this team down to 6-10 apparently.. and that definately is a ****box attitude.

[Ebenezer]

http://www.suwanneesheriff.com/siren_animated.gif
Please refrain from making remarks that could be potentially interpreted as disparaging toward JP. Consider this a warning. Next violation will result in a citation.
:lmao: you and what army?? :roflmao:

[juice]

This Season may rest on who our backup is, Shane Mathews isn't a serious option.


JPL will probably get injured at some point in '05 with his style of QB play.. If you factor in a new LT/LG/C starters probably, JPL will be lucky to stay healthy through the first month while the line learns to "Play as a Unit" again.

Bills must plan to roll JP to his Right alot because that blind side might be kinda shakey. He's gonna get killed from what little I saw of JPL the rookie.

[Philagape]

like I said...he took them to 9-7.

Drew didn't "take" the Bills anywhere, except maybe one or two wins. The rest, he was along for the ride. If wins or losses hinged entirely on the QB, the Bills would have been about 4-12 last year.

[DraftBoy]

holy christ.. the fact that you even took the time to write that makes it the most assinine post i have seen you make in a long time.. wow..

your post sucks.

and Draftboy.. your a grown man.. if you want to leave.. leave.. either you can handle putting your head in the sand and saying JP is the greatest thing since sliced bread as the ostrich club did.. or you cant.. it is your choice.. i thought you knew how this worked.. maybe you dont.. i dont know.

the JPD is the new version of the ostrich club.. i got tired of being logical and rational when it came to discecting drews horrible play for 3 years.. only to have every point deflected and blamed on someone or something else.. drew didnt suck.. the wind was blowing.. drew didnt suck.. the ref missed a call.. drew didnt suck.. it was everything else but him..

so now.. i am taking that stance.. jp can do no wrong and it doesnt matter what happens. :D

people really need to lighten up... seriously..

i am going away for a while i think. :bikerbabe


So this is another version of the DLC or the Ostrich club, or another attempt to further divide the board into followers or not? I thought we all grew out of this near age 6, Im done with this crap. Atleast now I can criticize a QB and atleast care about my team. What a joke.

[Tatonka]

guess we should resign ruben.. that would help, huh juice.

[DraftBoy]

you might have.. because you are already convinced that jp will bring this team down to 6-10 apparently.. and that definately is a ****box attitude.


next time quote me correctly i said 9-7 to 6-10 and said I preferred 6-10, dont take me out of context or is that just the way you plan to defend JP?

[DraftBoy]

guess we should resign ruben.. that would help, huh juice.


OH god not this again, atleast we can agree on that. Reuben Brown sucks and will never be anything again, and at his best he was overrated.

[Typ0]

I disagree with that, the team will not be better this year we will prolly finish between 6-10 and 9-7, personally I would prefer 6-10 bc you can learn alot more from losses than wins. I expect no playoff spot next season and extremely erradic play and decision making from our QB.

6 - 10, 9 - 7 what's the difference? Last season we had the #2 defense and #1 special teams. I just can't believe people defend DB when he was so clearly a major contributor to our team not being able to take advantage of a huge opportunity last season. Another thing is DB turned a lot of people's heads going on a tear near the end of the season to get us close to the playoffs....I personally think that has instilled a lot of blinders in people. We played the worst teams in the league during those six weeks....take a look at our schedule next season. With DB at the helm I would be very surprised if we finished .500.

To top it all off...the pro's, the coaches, administration and talent evaluators all agree....DB cannot take us to the next level. And the people in Dallas turn around and reaffirm this by bringing him in to do mop - up duty against weaker opponents in a rebuilding year.

I'm sorry...but you people who defend drew do it in spite of all the clear evidence DB simply is not the person to be taking this team to the next level and making the playoffs or even winning a playoff game or two. Is JP that person? No one really knows for sure...but not knowing where JP stands does not change the fact that we know exactly where DB stands.

[Tatonka]

So this is another version of the DLC or the Ostrich club, or another attempt to further divide the board into followers or not? I thought we all grew out of this near age 6, Im done with this crap. Atleast now I can criticize a QB and atleast care about my team. What a joke.
you obviously dont see the humor in the whole thing..

like i said.. you and alot of others really need to ****ing lighten up.. it is the offseason for ****s sakes..

and your kidding yourself if you think that a message board full of fans is not going to always be divided about something.

i accept your resignation as VP for the JPD.. sorry you didnt read the post about what your joining.. shame to lose a good man.. but we are shooting for the betterment of mankind here.. and critisizing our new qb just doesnt help that betterment. :snicker:

[Tatonka]

next time quote me correctly i said 9-7 to 6-10 and said I preferred 6-10, dont take me out of context or is that just the way you plan to defend JP?


that is the way i plan on defending JP.. whatever means necessary. :D

i really cant believe you cant see through all of this, Draftboy.. really disapppointing. we are just having some fun..

go do your thing.. dog who you want to.. i dont give a ****..

[juice]

guess we should resign ruben.. that would help, huh juice.I think Ruben has a gig.. but we should absolutely get a better backup QB.. Losman is the glass man - I don't think he's durable enough to take league Hits as a mobile QB with no Blind Side Blocking.

[DraftBoy]

you obviously dont see the humor in the whole thing..

like i said.. you and alot of others really need to ****ing lighten up.. it is the offseason for ****s sakes..

and your kidding yourself if you think that a message board full of fans is not going to always be divided about something.

i accept your resignation as VP for the JPD.. sorry you didnt read the post about what your joining.. shame to lose a good man.. but we are shooting for the betterment of mankind here.. and critisizing our new qb just doesnt help that betterment. :snicker:


Humor? No, Stupidity? Yes

[Ebenezer]

6 - 10, 9 - 7 what's the difference? Last season we had the #2 defense and #1 special teams.


...and if Pro-Bowler Nate Clements knocks down a 4th down pass aganst Jax in the first game of the season the Bills go 10-6, make the playoffs and we don't have this conversation...

[Tatonka]

6 - 10, 9 - 7 what's the difference? Last season we had the #2 defense and #1 special teams. I just can't believe people defend DB when he was so clearly a major contributor to our team not being able to take advantage of a huge opportunity last season. Another thing is DB turned a lot of people's heads going on a tear near the end of the season to get us close to the playoffs....I personally think that has instilled a lot of blinders in people. We played the worst teams in the league during those six weeks....take a look at our schedule next season. With DB at the helm I would be very surprised if we finished .500.

To top it all off...the pro's, the coaches, administration and talent evaluators all agree....DB cannot take us to the next level. And the people in Dallas turn around and reaffirm this by bringing him in to do mop - up duty against weaker opponents in a rebuilding year.

I'm sorry...but you people who defend drew do it in spite of all the clear evidence DB simply is not the person to be taking this team to the next level and making the playoffs or even winning a playoff game or two. Is JP that person? No one really knows for sure...but not knowing where JP stands does not change the fact that we know exactly where DB stands.

stop making sense, typo.. it obviously is not needed here.. your just going to divide the masses..

maybe shelby could start a cowboys anonymous club so people can still pull for the statue...

[Iehoshua]

:lmao: you and what army?? :roflmao:
The JPD. Recognize.

We don't have any problem going Rodney King on anyone who disrespects us.

[Tatonka]

Humor? No, Stupidity? Yes


ok.. be an ******* then.. whatever..

jesus..

:rolleyes:

[Tatonka]

...and if Pro-Bowler Nate Clements knocks down a 4th down pass aganst Jax in the first game of the season the Bills go 10-6, make the playoffs and we don't have this conversation...


yeah.. nate knocks down that pass and we can limp into the playoffs after drew **** the bed against a bunch of backups.. and then watch drew play even worse the next week in indy.. wow.. shame nate didnt knock that pass down.

[Typ0]

...and if Pro-Bowler Nate Clements knocks down a 4th down pass aganst Jax in the first game of the season the Bills go 10-6, make the playoffs and we don't have this conversation...


If DB plays like the franchise QB he's supposed to be instead of a washed up schmuck we go 13 - 3 and have a playoff game at home. What a load of crap you put on Nate on that play...sure it would have been the right thing to do. But that is all of :02 seconds you are focused on....we were both at that game and DB and company had 59:58 to score more than ten points....give it a rest Eb.

[Ebenezer]

yeah.. nate knocks down that pass and we can limp into the playoffs after drew **** the bed against a bunch of backups.. and then watch drew play even worse the next week in indy.. wow.. shame nate didnt knock that pass down.
again, you are more happy that the Bills failed to make the playoffs and got rid of DB then made the playoffs...that is pretty sad.

[juice]

OH god not this again, atleast we can agree on that. Reuben Brown sucks and will never be anything again, and at his best he was overrated.Girls stop fighting.. You used to be the perfect little couple.:funny: :dance:

[Iehoshua]

yeah.. nate knocks down that pass and we can limp into the playoffs after drew **** the bed against a bunch of backups.. and then watch drew play even worse the next week in indy.. wow.. shame nate didnt knock that pass down.
Ex-

If DB plays like the franchise QB he's supposed to be instead of a washed up schmuck we go 13 - 3 and have a playoff game at home. What a load of crap you put on Nate on that play...sure it would have been the right thing to do. But that is all of :02 seconds you are focused on....we were both at that game and DB and company had 59:58 to score more than ten points....give it a rest Eb.
-actly.

[Ebenezer]

If DB plays like the franchise QB he's supposed to be instead of a washed up schmuck we go 13 - 3 and have a playoff game at home. What a load of crap you put on Nate on that play...sure it would have been the right thing to do. But that is all of :02 seconds you are focused on....we were both at that game and DB and company had 59:58 to score more than ten points....give it a rest Eb.
Never rooted for Hasek during one of those 1-0 games, eh? #2 defense should have been able to knock down one pass. don't let your hatred for drew cloud the facts that NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs.

[Iehoshua]

again, you are more happy that the Bills failed to make the playoffs and got rid of DB then made the playoffs...that is pretty sad.
Making the playoffs alone is not the goal, winning the Superbowl is...

Yes I am happy since I know even had we squeaked in last season, we'd have been dead in the water as soon as we ran into the Patriot machine. I'd prefer a chance at winning it all to a mere playoff berth.

[Tatonka]

again, you are more happy that the Bills failed to make the playoffs and got rid of DB then made the playoffs...that is pretty sad.


shut your ****ing mouth, you tool.. seriously.. dont pretend to know what i want.. your such a pompus ass.. go away again.. it was nice while you were ****ing gone. you make me sick.

[Ebenezer]

Making the playoffs alone is not the goal, winning the Superbowl is...

Yes I am happy since I know even had we squeaked in last season, we'd have been dead in the water as soon as we ran into the Patriot machine. I'd prefer a chance at winning it all to a mere playoff berth.
then the Bills should shoot for the SB or 0-16?? can't buy that...I'll take the playoffs every year, thank you...after that you never know what is going to happen.

[Tatonka]

Making the playoffs alone is not the goal, winning the Superbowl is...

Yes I am happy since I know even had we squeaked in last season, we'd have been dead in the water as soon as we ran into the Patriot machine. I'd prefer a chance at winning it all to a mere playoff berth.
dont explain yourself to that POS... he is a cowboys fan with a star stuck in his ass...

he would rather root for the cowboys so he can keep riding bledsoes jock then see the bills win a superbowl without bledsoe at the helm.

eb.. i am sure this is exactly what you wanted to accomplish by starting this bull**** thread.. you obviously feel better about it.. you really make me sick.

[Iehoshua]

then the Bills should shoot for the SB or 0-16?? can't buy that...I'll take the playoffs every year, thank you...after that you never know what is going to happen.
Ok, then we can agree to disagree.

I do believe to shoot for it all or nothing. Playoffs every year but nothing to show for it? No thanks. This is just my opinion. Not saying either of us is right our wrong.

[Ebenezer]

shut your ****ing mouth, you tool.. seriously.. dont pretend to know what i want.. your such a pompus ass.. go away again.. it was nice while you were ****ing gone. you make me sick.


puke on your own feet...and if you like I can make you go away too...

you cannot tell others to shut their mouth, call them a tool, call them a pompus ass or tell them to go away...you don't like what somebody says you can argue it in proper fashion...you've been warned numerous times on and off the boards...one more name call and you take a seat for a week.

[juice]

shut your ****ing mouth, you tool.. seriously.. dont pretend to know what i want.. your such a pompus ass.. go away again.. it was nice while you were ****ing gone. you make me sick.We've heard this Rant Before Tonk.:rant:

[Ebenezer]

I can agree with that...and there are times to step back to take two steps forward...and if JP had not gotten hurt last year or maybe the Bills had gone 8-8 and not flirted with the playoffs I could agree with JP being the option...but the team was learning too much to now take a step back and see IF JP can pick up where DB left off. Defenses aren't going to give him squat next year....and that could do more to set the team back than anything.

[juice]

puke on your own feet...and if you like I can make you go away too...

..you don't like what somebody says you can argue it in proper fashion...you've been warned numerous times on and off the boards...one more name call and you take a seat for a week.It's the Return of the Banned Tonk.:crazy:

[Tatonka]

:tip: i dont have a single warning on my record last i checked.. and i dont want to hear **** about the double standart you impose.. you basically told me that i am not a fan of the bills.. you put words in peoples mouths and stated that i would rather lose to see bledsoe gone, which is total ****.. i would much rather be called an ******* than accuse someone of not being a fan or rooting for the team to lose.

i might call names.. but your attitude towards people is so condesending and obnoxious that it drives to people to that point..

you get a kick out of all this ****.. you started this thread intentionally to call people out and antagonize the "amigos" .. all of it is just a way to have fun and bull**** to kill time.. but you start implying that people want to see the bills lose and **** like that just to start this kind of ****..

suspend me, i dont give a ****.. your still a pompus *** *****.

***Editted for TOS Violation***

[The Natrix]

The bottom line is Drew sucked. I'm not sold on JP yet either, as no one should be, but I don't see how it is possible he could be worse than Bledsoe.

[The King]

There are so many factors that play into this whole conversation. I wanted to see Drew here more than most of you if not all of you. But the fact is the Bills made the right choice. Yes we probably wouldve seen the playoffs, but the Bills didnt utilize Drew they way they should and Bledsoe wasnt going to succeed to his fullest in the new system. The Bills obviously are going to be run first team, they needed a QB to support their strengths in the running game.

Drew needs the protection and players who can catch underneath and over the middle. It was the best option for the Bills and DREW. It was a hard pill to swallow at first but a lot of what Drew said during his press conference was true. This isnt the same team he signed up with.

[Ebenezer]

The bottom line is Drew sucked. I'm not sold on JP yet either, as no one should be, but I don't see how it is possible he could be worse than Bledsoe.
4-16 4 INTs and 33 yards passing.....against Miami at home in October....that would really suck, wouldn't it.

[Ebenezer]

There are so many factors that play into this whole conversation. I wanted to see Drew here more than most of you if not all of you. But the fact is the Bills made the right choice. Yes we probably wouldve seen the playoffs, but the Bills didnt utilize Drew they way they should and Bledsoe wasnt going to succeed to his fullest in the new system. The Bills obviously are going to be run first team, they needed a QB to support their strengths in the running game.

Drew needs the protection and players who can catch underneath and over the middle. It was the best option for the Bills and DREW. It was a hard pill to swallow at first but a lot of what Drew said during his press conference was true. This isnt the same team he signed up with.
It was true and some of us said at the beginning of 2003 the biggest thing facing the Bills was how the offense would handle the loss of Price, Riemersma and Centers...and it imploded...any QB would have failed with that combination gone and then Moulds getting hurt...combine that with inept play calling and a HC that should have been fired earlier than he was and it was a bomb waiting to go off. did DB play great? Hell no, but there were a lot of factors.

[juice]

:tip: i dont have a single warning on my record last i checked.. and i dont want to hear **** about the double standart you impose.. you basically told me that i am not a fan of the bills.. you put words in peoples mouths and stated that i would rather lose to see bledsoe gone, which is total ****.. i would much rather be called an ******* than accuse someone of not being a fan or rooting for the team to lose.

i might call names.. but your attitude towards people is so condesending and obnoxious that it drives to people to that point..

you get a kick out of all this ****.. you started this thread intentionally to call people out and antagonize the "amigos" .. all of it is just a way to have fun and bull**** to kill time.. but you start implying that people want to see the bills lose and **** like that just to start this kind of ****..

suspend me, i dont give a ****.. your still a pompus *** *****.

***Editted for TOS Violation***I'm warning you Tonk.. One more out-Burst like this and I'll have your Badge. Your not acting like a President.

[Tatonka]

I'm warning you Tonk.. One more out-Burst like this and I'll have you Badge.

:limp:

that is what comes up when you type : juice : without the spaces.

[The King]

It was true and some of us said at the beginning of 2003 the biggest thing facing the Bills was how the offense would handle the loss of Price, Riemersma and Centers...and it imploded...any QB would have failed with that combination gone and then Moulds getting hurt...combine that with inept play calling and a HC that should have been fired earlier than he was and it was a bomb waiting to go off. did DB play great? Hell no, but there were a lot of factors.


All we can hope for is a solid backup just incase Losman goes down. That needs to be a priority. It would be beneficial if the guy was experienced and could mentor JP also.

[Ebenezer]

All we can hope for is a solid backup just incase Losman goes down. That needs to be a priority. It would be beneficial if the guy was experienced and could mentor JP also.
I would think that if Matthews doesn't want to comeback then the Bills go after a Brad Johnson.

[Philagape]

Drew made more big mistakes last year than Clements (or anyone else) did. To anyone who thinks any other unit on the team deserved as much criticism as Drew, I ask: Who would you have rather put the fate of the team in?

[juice]

:limp:

that is what comes up when you type : juice : without the spaces.A little ***** comes up when you type Tonk.

[The King]

That would be the best possible sceniero. I would rather him than Matthews I have a lot more confidence in Johnsons ability to win a game.

[Tatonka]

A little ***** comes up when you type Tonk.


good come back :limp:

[Philagape]

A little ***** comes up when you type Tonk.

:Tonk:


Nope, didn't work :D

[Tatonka]

:Tonk:


Nope, didn't work :D

:censored:

yeah it did. :D

[Ebenezer]

:censored:

yeah it did. :D
juice and tonk...knock off the name calling...take it to PM or the Smack zone.

[Ebenezer]

That would be the best possible sceniero. I would rather him than Matthews I have a lot more confidence in Johnsons ability to win a game.
matthews was nothing more than the last viable guy on the list...I would be in favor of Brad Johnson...as long as he doesn't wear 11.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Thanks Eb. :down:

These guys had just calmed the f*** down, and now you riled them all up again. :mad:

[The King]

I was gonna say that.... isnt 14 retired? I would have to LOL if Johnson comes in and wears 11. Thats like a nail in the coffin on a JP injury

[lordofgun]

Thanks Eb. :down:

These guys had just calmed the f*** down, and now you riled them all up again. :mad:
Let's neg him to hell.

[Ebenezer]

Thanks Eb. :down:

These guys had just calmed the f*** down, and now you riled them all up again. :mad:
hey, I was away for 3 weeks...had to catch up on all I missed! :D

[juice]

juice and tonk...knock off the name calling...take it to PM or the Smack zone.Mrs. President of the Amigas doesn't think she has to follow the rules..

[Philagape]

I was gonna say that.... isnt 14 retired? I would have to LOL if Johnson comes in and wears 11. Thats like a nail in the coffin on a JP injury

Retired? Not unless it's for Frank Reich, which I wouldn't be opposed to :up:

[Tatonka]

Mrs. President of the Amigas doesn't think she has to follow the rules..

:limp:

[Tatonka]

Let's neg him to hell.


done.

[finsrclowns]

I shouldn't drink coffee when I read this board. :funny: There's some fuuny stuff in this thread.

[mybills]

Drew sucks..end of story.

[The_Philster]

hey, I was away for 3 weeks...had to catch up on all I missed! :D

:spit:

[BAM]

I can't believe I didn't read this thread earlier. :clap:

[Mr. Cynical]

Never rooted for Hasek during one of those 1-0 games, eh? #2 defense should have been able to knock down one pass. don't let your hatred for drew cloud the facts that NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs.
Congrats. That was the Most Idiotic Stament of the Year.

[The_Philster]

Congrats. That was the Most Idiotic Stament of the Year.

how so? If everything else happened the same the rest of the season and Nate knocked down the 4th and 45 pass like he should've, we would've gotten into the playoffs

[BAM]

WAYYY too many IF's. To blame it on one 4th down is idiotic. I'm with cynical on this one.

[The_Philster]

WAYYY too many IF's. To blame it on one 4th down is idiotic. I'm with cynical on this one.

thing is, Eb didn't say he single-handedly cost us the playoffs, BAM..but be honest...Nate makes the right play and everything else goes the same the rest of the season, we're in the playoffs

[Mr. Cynical]

how so? If everything else happened the same the rest of the season and Nate knocked down the 4th and 45 pass like he should've, we would've gotten into the playoffs
Please tell me you are kidding. I know you have alot more sense than to say a single play at the beginning of the season is THE reason the Bills didn't make the playoffs. What about the other 15 games?

And if memory serves, you said Norwood didn't lose the SB. You said the offense did by not getting in closer (or the D for not stopping Anderson). So if you are serious about Nate's one play, don't be a hypocrite. Blame Norwood completely for the Bills SB loss.

[The_Philster]

Please tell me you are kidding. I know you have alot more sense than to say a single play at the beginning of the season is THE reason the Bills didn't make the playoffs. What about the other 15 games?

And if memory serves, you said Norwood didn't lose the SB. You said the offense did by not getting in closer (or the D for not stopping Anderson). So if you are serious about Nate's one play, don't be a hypocrite. Blame Norwood completely for the Bills SB loss.

:huh: where did anyone say Nate was the only reason?

[Novacane]

how so? If everything else happened the same the rest of the season and Nate knocked down the 4th and 45 pass like he should've, we would've gotten into the playoffs



double standard. You're always the one screaming one player can not cost a team the game. Team game........remember? Now you wanna blame Clements for us not making the Playoffs?

[The_Philster]

double standard. You're always the one screaming one player can not cost a team the game. Team game........remember? Now you wanna blame Clements for us not making the Playoffs?

Is there a reading course we should sign you guys up for? :rofl:

[Mr. Cynical]

:huh: where did anyone say Nate was the only reason?
Read it again. He did not say NC and other factors.

Originally Posted by Ebenezer
Never rooted for Hasek during one of those 1-0 games, eh? #2 defense should have been able to knock down one pass. don't let your hatred for drew cloud the facts that NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs.

[The_Philster]

Read it again. He did not say NC and other factors.

Originally Posted by Ebenezer
Never rooted for Hasek during one of those 1-0 games, eh? #2 defense should have been able to knock down one pass. don't let your hatred for drew cloud the facts that NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs.

I did read it...and did he say Nate was the only reason? no...he was making a point totally lost one some that a lot of players screwed up our shot at the playoffs...not just Drew

[BAM]

Yes in that situation we make the playoffs.

If you wanna go that route though, you could make an IF statement in every game we lost this year. From the same game.. What if there is no holding call on Villarial? What if Milloy wasn't hurt and is there for that 4th and 4. What if Drew doesn't fumble vs. New England and we drive down the field and score? What if Henry's TD counted vs. Oakland? There are too many IF's. The Bills didn't make it as a team.

[Mr. Cynical]

I did read it...and did he say Nate was the only reason? no...he was making a point totally lost one some that a lot of players screwed up our shot at the playoffs...not just Drew
:rofl:

And you say WE need reading courses? Dude, seriously...

"NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs"

What words in there don't you understand?

[The_Philster]

Yes in that situation we make the playoffs.

If you wanna go that route though, you could make an IF statement in every game we lost this year. From the same game.. What if there is no holding call on Villarial? What if Milloy wasn't hurt and is there for that 4th and 4. What if Drew doesn't fumble vs. New England and we drive down the field and score? What if Henry's TD counted vs. Oakland? There are too many IF's. The Bills didn't make it as a team.

correct..and I believe that's exactly what Eb was getting at :up:

[Novacane]

Is there a reading course we should sign you guys up for? :rofl:


:rolleyes: stop talking about one play then


This entire thread is a freaking joke. All last week people are whining about Drew bashing threads, it finally stops and then Eb has to try and stir it up again. Next time you guys whine about people not getting along you can go look in the mirror

[The_Philster]

:rofl:

And you say WE need reading courses? Dude, seriously...

"NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs"

What words in there don't you understand?

Where does it say NC was the only reason? Nate did cost us...so did Drew, Travis, Eric, Villarial, Lindell, Fletcher, and pretty much everyone on the Bills roster...you're putting words in Eb's mouth

[The_Philster]

:rolleyes: stop talking about one play thenlearn to talk about more than one player, then



This entire thread is a freaking joke. All last week people are whining about Drew bashing threads, it finally stops and then Eb has to try and stir it up again. Next time you guys whine about people not getting along you can go look in the mirrorno arguments there...I thought this thread was a bad idea when I saw it and wouldn't have said a word had Cynical not completely misinterpreted what Eb said

[Mr. Cynical]

Where does it say NC was the only reason? Nate did cost us...so did Drew, Travis, Eric, Villarial, Lindell, Fletcher, and pretty much everyone on the Bills roster...you're putting words in Eb's mouth
I really can't make it any plainer....

He said: "NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs"

Do you see any other names in that sentence?
Do you see the words "NC was one of the reasons the Bills didn't make the playoffs"?

No.

It says simply: "NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs"

There is no ambiguity whatsoever.

[Mr. Cynical]

I thought this thread was a bad idea when I saw it and wouldn't have said a word had Cynical not completely misinterpreted what Eb said
It is you who are misinterpreting Eb. I can dig up a bunch of his old posts blaming NC for us not making the playoffs. If he tries to backpedal on this point I will find them and post them.

[The_Philster]

I really can't make it any plainer....

He said: "NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs"

Do you see any other names in that sentence?
Do you see the words "NC was one of the reasons the Bills didn't make the playoffs"?

No.

It says simply: "NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs"

There is no ambiguity whatsoever.

ok...just remember it goes both ways...you guys talk about how Drew cost us so much...he musta been the only one who cost us :;

[Novacane]

[QUOTE=The_ thenno arguments there...I thought this thread was a bad idea when I saw it and wouldn't have said a word had Cynical not completely misinterpreted what Eb said[/QUOTE]


How about we let Eb clairy what he said then? I think you are misinterpreting it. I think this could not be more clear.......


"don't let your hatred for drew cloud the facts that NC cost the Bills a trip to the playoffs."

[The_Philster]

It is you who are misinterpreting Eb. I can dig up a bunch of his old posts blaming NC for us not making the playoffs. If he tries to backpedal on this point I will find them and post them.

thing is, I know Eb a lot better than you...and he's a lot more level-headed than to blame one player for everything

[Mr. Cynical]

thing is, I know Eb a lot better than you...and he's a lot more level-headed than to blame one player for everythingSome of his "level-headed" posts on this matter:


how did not trading TH prevent Nate Clements from knocking down that ball to Jimmy Smith? Until you can answer that one, please stop.
We were a knocked down pass by Nate Clements against Jax from making the playoffs
Don't you get it?? Because the Jax game was already a win for pete's sake...win that game, 10-6 and in the playoffs...in the playoffs and DB is a QB that can lead a team to a playoffs...I give up.
Go for it...find me one play that if different changes the whole season...makes a win into a loss...not a fumble returned for a TD when we were already behind...one play where the Bills were winning and a win was assured that ended up turning the game into a loss. Clements knocks down the ball and the game is OVER. No way we lose that game. It's a lock.Now, do you still think he wasn't blaming the fact we missed the playoffs on Nate's one play?

[BAM]

:jawdrop:

:movie:

[Mr. Cynical]

:jawdrop:

:movie:
I think the movie is over.

The End.

:;

[BAM]

Isn't there a sequel. :mad:

[The_Philster]

Isn't there a sequel. :mad:

tomorrow...when Eb comes into this thread :;

[Tatonka]

what a ephing joke.

[Philagape]

I'll say it again .... Drew made more bad plays than anyone else on the team. He was the weakest link.
Clements is a better CB than Drew is a QB.
Henry is a better RB than Drew is a QB.
The O-line is a better O-line than Drew is a QB.
Mularkey is a better coach than Drew is a QB.
While the defense did have some blunders, it contributed a lot more to the victories than Drew did.
One cannot make an argumentative equivalency between Drew and any other factor. The fact is that Drew played worse than any other unit (maybe placekicking was as bad). He contributed more to the losses than he did to the victories. That's why we CAN blame Drew more than we credit him ... because that's simply the way it happened, and that's what he deserved.

[Tatonka]

wow.. that post made way to much sense for some to comprehend.

[Meathead]

These guys had just calmed the f*** down, and now you riled them all up again. :mad:
Eats hees yob mang.

[DaBills]

I know it's early, but can I nominate this thread as one of the funniest for next year?

"The JPD. Recognize."

:funny:

51,600.

8,030.

The first number is how many hits you get when you Google "Drew Bledsoe + loss"

The second one is for "Nate Clements + loss"

philgape touched on it with his chart too. We all agree no one player wins or loses a game. I think I've seen most everyone here give props to DB when he played well and we won, but also tear him a new one when he sucked and we lost. We do/did that with all the players though.

It seems all that is being said negative about Nate is his failure to knockdown that Jax last-sec pass as a major contributing factor in not putting the game away. Ok, fair enough. I'll even throw in his muffed punt later in the year, which he made up for. Drew's list was longer though.

And 23-25 in three years? Don't blame him for 100% of the losses if it makes people happy. But tell me what one single player/factor contributed more to the bad part of that record than the good?

Pound-for-pound, DB sure seems to make MORE bad plays MORE often than everyone else, and that's why he gets the blame. Besides, doesn't the QB always get the disproportionate share of the blame for wins and losses? Like a pitcher in baseball? Goalie in hockey? That comes with the territory, doesn't it?

We expect more from a QB than we do a CB.

His problem was that he was a two-steps back, one step forward QB, in that he always seemed to either have to make up for a boneheaded play or he was making one. I'm not talking the occasional/few INCs either, but momentum changing plays. In many games his negative play undid all the good he might have done in a game. But does it really matter? Same result.

And as for us being a playoff-ready team if Drew stayed? Remember, we WERE a potential playoff-ready team against Pitt, at HOME, vs. second stringers. If this team didn't beat them then with the variables we had going in, how are we any different this year? And now, we have the possibility of not resigning JJ or Pat Williams? How can anyone say that if Drew stayed, we'd be able to pick up where we left off? Unrealistic. Normal player attrition and FA would have changed the equation anyway.

I agree that Drew losing the players he did after his first year affected his play. Of which I believe Larry Centers was the single biggest loss. BUT, watching Drew in years 2-3, he STILL had opportunities to dump off to open guys in the flat, like WM, Henry, Burns, etc. But he either ignored them by locking in on the deep WR or lost any touch with the ball when he threw at them.

[justasportsfan]

Dear Amigos,

Since I was missing of the last few weeks I'll address this upfront (without reading through the 20,000 posts). Congrats on the naming of JP Losman as the Bills new starting QB. Since, DB is not even going to be on the roster my point of starting DB for six games in 2005 is now moot.

You are correct. GM Tom Donahoe decided that you are correct and that JP is better for the team than DB. TD agreed with you. Congrats!

Just remember. If JP sucks it was you who wanted him over DB. TD agreed and went with you. Thus, you leave no room for complaint.

If JP is great; you get the praise. If JP sucks - you wanted him. And, since TD agreed with you then you can't rip TD without ripping yourselves.

As a Bills fan I hope that the kid does well. As a realist, I feel this is a step backwards and the real chance that the Bills had of making the playoffs next year has been removed. I hope I am wrong.

EbEb, every player in every position is a risk. Even Spikes is not exempt from having an off year. I would think you like Willis and Evans just like TD does. Should any of those players have a bad sophomore year, remember just like TD , YOU wanted them.

I agree, Drew could've taken us to the playoffs but it wouldn't happen without a dominant D , ST and running game. He wouldn't be the MAIN reason we get there. If the last 3 years hasn't proven that to you , then maybe you haven't learned a thing. Drew could never have gotten us past the playoffs. He's proven time again in his carreer to suck in huge games and thats what every game in the playoffs is.

The Pats took a risk going w/ a 2nd. year 6th rd. draftee over Drew and boy were they right. Even if Losman wasn't on our roster, I would've dropped Drew based on his salary and his average at best (I'm being generous) performance in the last 3 years. If JP wasn't here, I'm pretty sure TD would've shopped the market for maybe a Kitna in a trade.

In the last 2 1/2 years , Drew was PART of the reason why we didn't make playoffs. He was a major reason why we didn't make playoffs last year. He was barley a factor during our run last year and when you think of it, most of the teams we faced were weak.

I'll take my chances w/ any qb other than Drew. I supported him and now I'm glad he's gone.

Someone like wys could've have thrown your sentiments to our faces and say, "remember you and TD wanted Drew and the last 3 years proved that you and TD were all wrong. " Wys was right, we were wrong.

[mybills]

About these weak teams we played..
NE barely beat the Browns, we spanked them the following week.
NE barely beat the Bangles, we spanked them the following week.
We beat Miami..they LOST to Miami. They are supposed to be the S.B. winning, so called "great" team. So what if we beat crappy teams? We looked much better doing it! :up:

[Dozerdog]

About these weak teams we played..
NE barely beat the Browns, we spanked them the following week.
NE barely beat the Bangles, we spanked them the following week.
We beat Miami..they LOST to Miami. They are supposed to be the S.B. winning, so called "great" team. So what if we beat crappy teams? We looked much better doing it! :up:


New England barely beat the Browns???????
They destroyed the Browns, on the road, 42-15


Barely beat the Bengals? They played a bit sloppy, and still went up something like 35 -14 before giving up some soft TDs at the end.

[mybills]

Now post our scores. Much better! :up:
They struggled, we didn't.

[Ebenezer]

how so? If everything else happened the same the rest of the season and Nate knocked down the 4th and 45 pass like he should've, we would've gotten into the playoffs


WAYYY too many IF's. To blame it on one 4th down is idiotic. I'm with cynical on this one.


Please tell me you are kidding. I know you have alot more sense than to say a single play at the beginning of the season is THE reason the Bills didn't make the playoffs. What about the other 15 games?

As I tell my kid...there are no trick questions here guys...

MC, the other 15 games played out and the Bills were 9-6...better than 22 other NFL teams...not too shabby. Did the Bills look good or great in all 15 of those games? No. And neither did 29 other NFL teams. Only Pitts, NE and Philly looked good for 15 games. It was what it was - 9-6. Good enough to put them into the playoffs with one more game added to the win column. That one game could have been Jax, Oak or the Jets game (in NJ). So, which game could have put us in the playoffs? I'll give the Jets game away. The offense, including DB looked like crap, the defense crapped the bed at the end of the game and it was an away game. That leaves Oakland and Jax and leads us to BAMs point.

BAM, there was only one IF...IF NC knocks the ball down...no other IFs.
The same could be said for one referee call against the Raiders. No other games were swayed by just one play. However, in the Raiders game, after Henry's non-touchdown the Raiders still would have had to win the game. If NC knocks the ball down the game is over and it is a W. A game hinged on ONE play. One IF.

Phil, thanks for the defense but I meant what I said...the season played out the way it did and it did hinge on one play. Sure, there is lots of blame. TH sucked at the beginning of the year, the defense let the Jets game get away, DB threw too many ints against Balt, the team couldn't beat a bunch of piners against the Steelers. But if you ever wanted to do the ultimate "have one play back" it would be this case. NC did more to cost the Bills the playoffs (assuming of course the season plays out exactly the same) than any other Bill this year...by screwing up just one play. No matter how bad DB played - and yes, franchise QBs are suppose to win games - no matter the fact I called for DB's head after 0-4...and again after the NE loss...and again after the Baltimore game...you cannot find ONE play that DB made, or for that matter, failed to make, that changes the outcome of the season.

...and I know there is no way of proving it but I know I told a coupld of zoners in the parking lot after the game and clump on the way home that it would really suck if that one play came back to haunt the Bills. Yes. One play can affect an entire season.

[mybills]

One play can affect an entire season.
Maybe for a fan, but not a player. They put it behind them after every game.

[DraftBoy]

I dont care if the player puts it behind him or not it still cost us the game and in Eb's argument the season, so what does that have to do with anything?

[Novacane]

As I tell my kid...there are no trick questions here guys...

MC, the other 15 games played out and the Bills were 9-6...better than 22 other NFL teams...not too shabby. Did the Bills look good or great in all 15 of those games? No. And neither did 29 other NFL teams. Only Pitts, NE and Philly looked good for 15 games. It was what it was - 9-6. Good enough to put them into the playoffs with one more game added to the win column. That one game could have been Jax, Oak or the Jets game (in NJ). So, which game could have put us in the playoffs? I'll give the Jets game away. The offense, including DB looked like crap, the defense crapped the bed at the end of the game and it was an away game. That leaves Oakland and Jax and leads us to BAMs point.

BAM, there was only one IF...IF NC knocks the ball down...no other IFs.
The same could be said for one referee call against the Raiders. No other games were swayed by just one play. However, in the Raiders game, after Henry's non-touchdown the Raiders still would have had to win the game. If NC knocks the ball down the game is over and it is a W. A game hinged on ONE play. One IF.

Phil, thanks for the defense but I meant what I said...the season played out the way it did and it did hinge on one play. Sure, there is lots of blame. TH sucked at the beginning of the year, the defense let the Jets game get away, DB threw too many ints against Balt, the team couldn't beat a bunch of piners against the Steelers. But if you ever wanted to do the ultimate "have one play back" it would be this case. NC did more to cost the Bills the playoffs (assuming of course the season plays out exactly the same) than any other Bill this year...by screwing up just one play. No matter how bad DB played - and yes, franchise QBs are suppose to win games - no matter the fact I called for DB's head after 0-4...and again after the NE loss...and again after the Baltimore game...you cannot find ONE play that DB made, or for that matter, failed to make, that changes the outcome of the season.

...and I know there is no way of proving it but I know I told a coupld of zoners in the parking lot after the game and clump on the way home that it would really suck if that one play came back to haunt the Bills. Yes. One play can affect an entire season.




Looks like you were wrong Phil.

[Novacane]

I dont care if the player puts it behind him or not it still cost us the game and in Eb's argument the season, so what does that have to do with anything?



Eb's arguement is lame. He does not know everything else would have happened exactly the same if NC knocked down that ball. There would not have been such a sense of urgency if we had won game 1. The players may not have had an us against the world attitude if they had not gotten off to a terrible start. We may never have gone on that winning streak. That one play could have changed a lot more than just that first game!

[BAM]

BAM, there was only one IF...IF NC knocks the ball down...no other IFs.
The same could be said for one referee call against the Raiders. No other games were swayed by just one play. However, in the Raiders game, after Henry's non-touchdown the Raiders still would have had to win the game. If NC knocks the ball down the game is over and it is a W. A game hinged on ONE play. One IF.

Wow. You really do believe that don't you.

[DraftBoy]

Eb's arguement is lame. He does not know everything else would have happened exactly the same if NC knocked down that ball. There would not have been such a sense of urgency if we had won game 1. The players may not have had an us against the world attitude if they had not gotten off to a terrible start. We may never have gone on that winning streak. That one play could have changed a lot more than just that first game!

I didnt say I agreed with it, although I do feel that play had more impact on our season than any other however Im not willing to say that play cost us the playoffs. Im just saying that I dont at all agree with Mybills point about players putting it behind them, that doesnt make an difference since they already made the play.

[BAM]

What if Terrence McGee makes that interception the play right before the 4th down in question. If I remember correctly, the ball was tipped at the line and went right off his hands. :scratch:

[DraftBoy]

What if Terrence McGee makes that interception the play right before the 4th down in question. If I remember correctly, the ball was tipped at the line and went right off his hands. :scratch:


Dropped interceptions are more common occurances than a player just not moving his arm.

[BAM]

Jimmy Smith simply beat him to the ball. There was no moving his arm about it. He got burnt. That's beside the point though...

To say this play and only this play cost the Buffalo Bills the playoffs is severely naive.

[Novacane]

Thank God Drew is gone :dance:

[DraftBoy]

Jimmy Smith simply beat him to the ball. There was no moving his arm about it. He got burnt. That's beside the point though...

To say this play and only this play cost the Buffalo Bills the playoffs is severely naive.


I agree although think that one play hurt us the most this season, when you best cover corner gets burnt by an over the hill vet it kinda sets a bad tone for the rest of the season, and if I remeber the play correctly if Nate's arm is raised he has a good chance of defelcting if not knocking down the ball.

[Ebenezer]

Eb's arguement is lame. He does not know everything else would have happened exactly the same if NC knocked down that ball. There would not have been such a sense of urgency if we had won game 1. The players may not have had an us against the world attitude if they had not gotten off to a terrible start. We may never have gone on that winning streak. That one play could have changed a lot more than just that first game!


That's right...I have no clue what would have happened with the rest of the season...and neither do you...they may have come out of that Jax game pumped...gone into Oakland and won...carried that momentum into NY and beat the Jets...now they could have been 12-4...maybe...but for one knocked down pass we'll never know...but again, name me one play that DB made or failed to make that affected the season as much...until you do that NC is more to blame for the Bills not making the playoffs than DB.

[DaBills]

ebe - Sorry, I can't buy it. Based on the 'one game (Jax) cost us the playoffs logic', then any loss during the year up to the Pitt game qualifies. And Drew was responsible for more mistakes in directly contributing to losses than Nate's one play.

Seems like you're looking to find that one play that makes or breaks a game all by itself in a vaccum. And furthermore, with only the criteria applied to it that the team have held the lead to that point and all we had to do was fall on the ball, (so to speak). That's kind of rare, don't you think? Like a kicker going wide right in a SB?

Nate's play would be akin to Drew coming up short on a difficult long ball and was INC, game over. At least he took a shot at the endzone. I could live with that. I did for three years actually. No, he f'ed up and fumbled for two TD's. Twice btw, in key games. What other QB besides RJ does that happen to? You blame Nate for one play in one game as the reason, but aren't DB's TO's he gives up for scores just as bad in the scope of the particular games they happen in?

The two types of plays are not the same. Nate's play is once in a career perhaps. Drew's critical mistakes are bi-monthly. I thought one of the 6-5 QB's strengths was supposed to be being able to withstand just that kind of pressure?

If Drew doesn't give up two stripped fumbles for TDs against both the Pats and the Steelers this year, you honestly think those weren't defining moment plays that cost us games? In just those two games, that's 2-1 in favor of Drew over Nate alone costing us games. Does it really matter if it's the last absolute play of the game, or if it's in a crucial drive leading up to the end? Both occur at key junctures of the game.

And by the time we play that last Pitt game, didn't we really have our playoff destiny in our own hands, regardless of what NC did way back? Just like Drew had the chance to redeem himself in that game for all his critical mistakes to that point. But instead, he lived up to, or down to, his typical ability.

Let's blame Nate for Drew giving up the TD to Pitt late.

[Ebenezer]

ebe - Sorry, I can't buy it. Based on the 'one game (Jax) cost us the playoffs logic', then any loss during the year up to the Pitt game qualifies. And Drew was responsible for more mistakes in directly contributing to losses than Nate's one play.

Seems like you're looking to find that one play that makes or breaks a game all by itself in a vaccum. And furthermore, with only the criteria applied to it that the team have held the lead to that point and all we had to do was fall on the ball, (so to speak). That's kind of rare, don't you think? Like a kicker going wide right in a SB?

Nate's play would be akin to Drew coming up short on a difficult long ball and was INC, game over. At least he took a shot at the endzone. I could live with that. I did for three years actually. No, he f'ed up and fumbled for two TD's. Twice btw, in key games. What other QB besides RJ does that happen to? You blame Nate for one play in one game as the reason, but aren't DB's TO's he gives up for scores just as bad in the scope of the particular games they happen in?

The two types of plays are not the same. Nate's play is once in a career perhaps. Drew's critical mistakes are bi-monthly. I thought one of the 6-5 QB's strengths was supposed to be being able to withstand just that kind of pressure?

If Drew doesn't give up two stripped fumbles for TDs against both the Pats and the Steelers this year, you honestly think those weren't defining moment plays that cost us games? In just those two games, that's 2-1 in favor of Drew over Nate alone costing us games. Does it really matter if it's the last absolute play of the game, or if it's in a crucial drive leading up to the end? Both occur at key junctures of the game.

And by the time we play that last Pitt game, didn't we really have our playoff destiny in our own hands, regardless of what NC did way back? Just like Drew had the chance to redeem himself in that game for all his critical mistakes to that point. But instead, he lived up to, or down to, his typical ability.

Let's blame Nate for Drew giving up the TD to Pitt late.
Buffalo was behind in the Pitt game already...just like they were on the fumble in the NE game...the Jax game was in the bag...

I'll compare it to this...

There are 0:06 seconds left on the clock and the Bills are on the Jax 1 yard line...DB is running a bootleg (hypothetically) into the endzone with 0:01 on the clock for the Bills to win...now!, he fumbles the ball out of bounds without being touched (nobody near him for 5 yards)...Bills lose...the same guys all over my case would be crucifying DB for fumbling the ball, losing the game and costing the Bills the playoffs....and so would I. One play can affect an entire season.

[BAM]

the same guys all over my case would be crucifying DB for fumbling the ball, losing the game and costing the Bills the playoffs....and so would I.

Not exactly. Unlike most I don't even blame Norwood for the SB loss.

Team Game, Eb.

[justasportsfan]

Buffalo was behind in the Pitt game already...just like they were on the fumble in the NE game...the Jax game was in the bag...

I'll compare it to this...

There are 0:06 seconds left on the clock and the Bills are on the Jax 1 yard line...DB is running a bootleg (hypothetically) into the endzone with 0:01 on the clock for the Bills to win...now!, he fumbles the ball out of bounds without being touched (nobody near him for 5 yards)...Bills lose...the same guys all over my case would be crucifying DB for fumbling the ball, losing the game and costing the Bills the playoffs....and so would I. One play can affect an entire season.All Drew did against Jax was not suck. We don't pay qb's the kind of salary he was going to get to "not suck". If Drew didn't suck in either both NE games and Ravens, we would've made playoffs.

[Ebenezer]

All Drew did against Jax was not suck. We don't pay qb's the kind of salary he was going to get to "not suck". If Drew didn't suck in either both NE games and Ravens, we would've made playoffs.

Again you are back to pay...

DB could have gone 20-28 against both NE and Balti...they weren't winning those away games. The NE game at home maybe...but again...that would have required the making of a lot of plays...NC is still only one play. Try again.

[justasportsfan]

DB could have gone 20-28 against both NE and Balti...they weren't winning those away games. The NE game at home maybe...but again...that would have required the making of a lot of plays...NC is still only one play. Try again.My point is, he hasn't done anything against good teams that could've put us in the playoffs even for just 1 game. If JP sucks, we'll do what Drew supporters do and blame everyone else as well ecept we're not paying him 6 million.:D

I'm almost sure that JP can "just not suck ". He may even do a better job t playing caretaker than Drew.

[Ebenezer]

My point is, he hasn't done anything against good teams that could've put us in the playoffs even for just 1 game. If JP sucks, we'll do what Drew supporters do and blame everyone else as well ecept we're not paying him 6 million.:D

I'm almost sure that JP can "just not suck ". He may even do a better job t playing caretaker than Drew.
look, I never said that DB was the second coming of Jim Kelly...we are discussing the point of making the playoffs in 2004 and the best chance to have made the playoffs in 2005...there were only 2 options last year and now there are only 2 options this year...

DB > SM
JP > SM

everything other than that is opinion that can never be proved.

when discussing not making the playoffs last year though it is easier to argue that if NC knocks down one ball the bills make the playoffs rather than DB doing 17 different things to make the playoffs...and personally, I could care less about the money...he made what he made...sure, I wished he made less...if they had not resigned him before last year it would have been no skin of my ass...but events are what they are...you can't argue with them...it's fruitless to. The Bills were still $2mil under the cap at years end...DB did not break the bank and they did not sacrifice other players to keep him.

[justasportsfan]

look, I never said that DB was the second coming of Jim Kelly...we are discussing the point of making the playoffs in 2004 and the best chance to have made the playoffs in 2005...there were only 2 options last year and now there are only 2 options this year...

DB > SM
JP > SM

everything other than that is opinion that can never be proved.

when discussing not making the playoffs last year though it is easier to argue that if NC knocks down one ball the bills make the playoffs rather than DB doing 17 different things to make the playoffs...and personally, I could care less about the money...he made what he made...sure, I wished he made less...if they had not resigned him before last year it would have been no skin of my ass...but events are what they are...you can't argue with them...it's fruitless to. The Bills were still $2mil under the cap at years end...DB did not break the bank and they did not sacrifice other players to keep him.Just like thinking that Drew gives us a better chance of making playoffs w/ Drew is nothing but opinion even though we've never made playoffs w/ him. If we don't make playoffs because of JP, we can say it would've been the same w/ Drew. I have 3 years to back that up. At least w/ JP there is a chance that he could do better than what Drew has done.

[BAM]

Eb, with this line of thinking you should place blame on the pair covering Ernest Wilford at the end of the same game.

[mybills]

Thank God Drew is gone :dance:
:rofl:
Maybe Eb meant to say, <b>"One player can affect an entire season."</b> :snicker:

[Ebenezer]

Just like thinking that Drew gives us a better chance of making playoffs w/ Drew is nothing but opinion even though we've never made playoffs w/ him. If we don't make playoffs because of JP, we can say it would've been the same w/ Drew. I have 3 years to back that up. At least w/ JP there is a chance that he could do better than what Drew has done.
but when discussing the future you can take the point of what might happen...JP may be better suited to take the Bills to the playoffs...that's your opinion...I think DB would have had a better chance...time will tell...but to say that JP is better than DB or could do a better job than DB (which several have said around here, to be fair you have only said the JP can do what DB did) infers that inserting JP into the lineup means the Bills will be better and win at least 10 this year.

[Ebenezer]

Eb, with this line of thinking you should place blame on the pair covering Ernest Wilford at the end of the same game.
why...the guy made a great catch...the defenders did not do that much wrong...if NC knocks the ball down (which should have been the play and not going for the INT) that play never happens. Keep going.

[BAM]

Oh that's right.

Smith made a great play too. Your turn.

[Ebenezer]

:rofl:
Maybe Eb meant to say, <b>"One player can affect an entire season."</b> :snicker:

One player can affect an entire season

...without Willis McGahee the Bills don't even sniff .500 last year...

a non-player can affect an entire season too...

...if TD fires GW a year earlier...
...if TD never restructured DBs contract...
...if the Pitts GM doesn't draft Roethelisberger...

[Buckets]

but when discussing the future you can take the point of what might happen...JP may be better suited to take the Bills to the playoffs...that's your opinion...I think DB would have had a better chance...time will tell...but to say that JP is better than DB or could do a better job than DB (which several have said around here, to be fair you have only said the JP can do what DB did) infers that inserting JP into the lineup means the Bills will be better and win at least 10 this year.

I'm begining to think Eb is WYS, anyone else?

[Ebenezer]

Oh that's right.

Smith made a great play too. Your turn.
he made a great play because NC decided to go for the INT and not the knock down...

[Typ0]

EB, you know what player it was that made a difference in the JAX game? Lawyer Milloy. Having him in the game clearly changed the complexion of our defense when he was there and indicates how badly we need some help in the secondary.

[DaBills]

"Buffalo was behind in the Pitt game already...just like they were on the fumble in the NE game...the Jax game was in the bag...

I'll compare it to this...

There are 0:06 seconds left on the clock and the Bills are on the Jax 1 yard line...DB is running a bootleg (hypothetically) into the endzone with 0:01 on the clock for the Bills to win...now!, he fumbles the ball out of bounds without being touched (nobody near him for 5 yards)...Bills lose...the same guys all over my case would be crucifying DB for fumbling the ball, losing the game and costing the Bills the playoffs....and so would I. One play can affect an entire season."


That's what I mean though. Your criteria is extremely narrow and only allows for the possibility of a game scenario that is rare. Bills vs. NE early in the year, Titans being stopped short of the goal in the SB, etc. But even those games would have led to a tie situation at best, forcing OT. As far as having it in the bag and just having to kneel on it? I gotta go back to the Giants and Herm Edwards fumble recovery on the last play of the game to even recall a situation like that.

And we're talking about one player's mistakes affecting a season, not about players that are a positive force for their team because of how good their play is. Those are the guys that are MVPs 'cause ya can't do without them. Drew is/was not that type of player imo.

WM, Spikes, Moorman were dudes that without their solid play, would have left us in a worse position. Drew and Lindell on the other hand, were liabilities when we needed them not to be.

MVPs contrasted with guys that took two steps back for every one forward.

[Mr. Cynical]

Put simply Eb's logic is completely flawed. Debating this is akin to arguing whether or not the world is flat.

[Mr. Cynical]

Looks like you were wrong Phil.
Everyone makes mistakes. :;

[BAM]

Put simply Eb's logic is completely flawed. Debating this is akin to arguing whether or not the world is flat.

Or whether evolution is legit.. :funny:

[The_Philster]

Everyone makes mistakes. :;

Hey...I can be wrong once in my life :idunno: :D

[Iehoshua]

Hey...I can be wrong once in my life :idunno: :D
You have yet to be wrong in a particular thread in the No TOS Zone...

:biggrin:

[The_Philster]

You have yet to be wrong in a particular thread in the No TOS Zone...

:biggrin:

:laughter:

[im4bflo]

Sorry Eb, Drew is now a bum hugging NFC skrewup now,
I backed him as a BILL until it was obvious to me, that he was making bad throws, and bad decisions. It was right there on the bigscreen, no matter how I wanted him to succeed, he was just not getting it done.
Going with JP LOSMAN is the greatest thing they could of done!
I am behind him 1000%, do or die, JP will get it done.
Everyone who has come up with him in his career has got nothing but great things to say about him, and I believe them.
The Bills staff love what they've seen, and have seen a lot more than any of us, and I go with their decision without a worry.
I'm more worried about a backup, in case of injury, and what's going to happen with our O-line, but JP is THE man, and OUR man!
JPD !!!!

[Tatonka]

I'm begining to think Eb is WYS, anyone else?

wys posts were not nearly as obnoxious or pompus.

[Dozerdog]

wys posts were not nearly as obnoxious or pompus.
:rofl:

We are talking about the same Wys, right?


"Commander Tom" Wys? That guy?

[The_Philster]

wys posts were not nearly as obnoxious or pompus.

:huh: Did you ever read his posts?

[Dozerdog]

:huh: Did you ever read his posts?
Just the first paragraph or so.....

....hey- I'm a busy guy- I don't have that kind of time commitment

[The_Philster]

Just the first paragraph or so.....

....hey- I'm a busy guy- I don't have that kind of time commitment

actually I was talking to Tatonka...but I'm with you on that. I tried reading one of his long-winded posts once...and started nodding off halfway through :lolcry:

[Tatonka]

your right.. it has been a long time since i have read his stuff..

i will says their posts are equally as obnoxious and pompus.. wys posts are just longer.

[Bills 4 life]

WHAT THE HELL IS AN AMIGO?????????????????????????????????????

EMAIL ME ORANGETERPS@AOL.COM

[BAM]

:rofl:

[BillsFever21]

I think EB has totally lost any sense of reality after being wrong about Drew.

What happened the final 8 plays after the first 4th down conversion leading up to the touchdown? Any one of them play would've also ended the game.

Here we have Mr. Know It All who preached it's a team game for every single one of Drew's crappers but now he tries to blame the entire season on Clements.

I guess Clements contribution with his 6 INT's, 5 FF and 2 TD's during the season didn't help out at all.

EB has already proved he can't handle being proved wrong on many occasions. I guess this is his way of trying to cover up for another wrongful prediction.

[justasportsfan]

but when discussing the future you can take the point of what might happen...JP may be better suited to take the Bills to the playoffs...that's your opinion...I think DB would have had a better chance...time will tell...but to say that JP is better than DB or could do a better job than DB (which several have said around here, to be fair you have only said the JP can do what DB did) infers that inserting JP into the lineup means the Bills will be better and win at least 10 this year.Eb TD went w/ Villiarial instead of Ruben. Spikes instead of whoever. Drew instead of Rob. etc. etc.

ONly time will tell? Yeah we said that 3 yrs. ago and how did Drew do? We haven't had an above average qb since Kelly. THe furthest our team went since Kelly was w/ a midget. Drew had his chance and had a decent 6 months out of his 3 years. He hasn't been above average since those 1st 6 months because teams know his limitations.

Have you ever heard of a qb needing a time clock to improve his game so late in his career? Cmon, EB. Other than hiring an all prowbowl OL everything was done to help Drew succeed and yet he could barely be an average qb. Our D , ST, running game has improved since Drew got here and yet the passing game went from crappy to barely average inspite of all those things done to help him succeed.