Drew vs kelly: TD passes

[SoCalBillsFan]

Many people have complained that Drew did not throw enough TD's this year and that he has trouble generating points. Bledsoe threw 24 TD passes this year and ran for 2 more.

Jim kelly threw 24 td passes in 1990, 23 in 1992, and 18 (yes wys, that's less than 20) in 1993. In 1992 and 1993 he also threw more interceptions than Drew did this year. He never ran for more than 1 TD in any of the super bowl years. So looking at it that way Drew actually had a better season than any of kelly's super bowl years.

IN the postseason Kelly had 20 TDs and 28 INTs, not great numbers.

THe point of these numbers is not to determine who was better between Drew and Jim, but rather to show that getting rid of drew would be foolish. Drew is a QB who can succeed. Don't complain that he didn't throw enough TDs, because the BIlls have shown that the kind of performance drew gave this year has worked for them in the past. Drew can get the job done. We need to build a better TEAM, and as for the QB position, it is more than adequate. Let's focus on strengthening other positions that need it more.

Is drew going to make mistakes? of course! Might he cost us games? yes! Might he also win us games? Yes! Such is the position of quarterback. The fact is that jim cost us games and made mistakes at times too. And guess what? we went to 4 super bowls! Drew is good enough to get us back to another, not on his own, but with a good supporting cast as well.

[LtBillsFan66]

Great post!

I'm sure Green Bay feel that Favre is a big mistake. After tonight's game (sarcasm alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

[WG]

Possibly SoCal. But the odds of Drew having a good game against a worthy opponent are slim. Really. Slim.

So I look at it this way; Since, and assuming we win the division, we need to play 3 games to win the big dance. Since Drew has never had even remotely a good playoff game, the odds of him stringing 3 average+ ones together when he's never even had an average playoff game by NFL QB standards, are pretty slim in deed. Whether or not we could overcome his typical errors in such contests would remain to be seen. But I would just as soon go w/ another QB who simply doesn't make those errors. I don't care if the guy is totally average and we make a living on good D and running the ball. As long as he doesn't play like Drew does, which has been horrendously, in the playoffs, I'm happy.

Again, Drew will be starting next year so there's not much of an argument on that. So let's just wait and see how he does. But to continue to argue that he'll do what he's never done is beyond me. Sure, Jimbo didn't always play well in the playoffs and in fact rarely had good games as well. But he didn't play nearly as bad as Drew witness his TD to INT ratio alone. Who would you rather have, Kelly or Bledsoe? That's a simple one to me. Also, Kelly never had what Drew now has to work with. Henry's a better rusher than Thurman if this keeps up. We had Reed, but Moulds is at least that good and Price is better than any other WR we ever had. Kelly never had a Centers. JR and Moore are as good as any TE we've had even if Drew chooses not to throw to them.

Again, compare apples to apples. We'll see. But if Drew falls apart again v. the AFC East, and likely we won't have the fortune w/ injuries that we had this year, and if he doesn't show up v. teams like Tennessee, Philly, the Giants, etc., then we'll all know. I will say that if Fiedler had played healthy in both Phin games, we likely would have lost one of those, perhaps both. Other than that, the teams we beat really didn't impress me at all.

We have a lot of work to do to be better than 8-8 next year. We won't be able to weather 4 or 5 games in which Drew tosses key INTs to give the other team serious points.

[WG]

Originally posted by BillsFanOne
Great post!

I'm sure Green Bay feel that Favre is a big mistake. After tonight's game (sarcasm alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

If Drew has even one game next season in the playoffs the likes of Favre's top 4 then I'll be shocked!

Comparing Favre to Bledsoe? Gimme a break. Favre will make the hall of fame based on wins, MVPs, SB rings, and other stuff that's worthy of getting in. IF Drew makes it, it'll be b/c of yardage and other worthless stats that you say are useless except when trying to make Drew out to be great. In any case, I highly doubt that wins will be a part of it. I have little hope that we'll win a SB w/ Drew as our QB. Until Drew wins an MVP, he hasn't even started a Pro Bowl.

In the meantime, Favre has played two more full seasons than Drew and Drew's best season falls short of Favre's 7 best. Favre's worst still exceeds 3 of Drew's. Favre has almost as many TDs in his 5 best seasons as Drew does in his entire career. Oh but wait, Drew has almost as many attempts. Almost forgot that critical stat.

Favre has launched 314 TDs to Drew's 190. Minor difference.

[DIHARD2]

Wys, there, hasn't been a team that has won the Super Bowl with out having a good special teams, excellent defenses, and an offense that can score points and of course coaching.

Jim Kelly directed the offense that was his job, he won games he lost teams for us just as the quarterback of any team that's noteworthy.

Drew Bledsoe with the right (supporting cast) will take us to the Super Bowl, and win it. In doing so, there will be games he will win for us just as there will be those he loses. But win and losses are not totally the responsibility of the quarterback. Unless he throws six interceptions or loses the ball five times in the playoffs ( sarcasm alert).

The fact is, no quarterback is going to win you the Super Bowl by himself. No quarterback is going to get you to the Super Bowl by himself. It takes every player that enters the game, to play his best! That is what will get you to it and win you the Super Bowl, nothing more nothing less.

It takes the team working as a unit just as last year's winner did. New England would have never gotten to the Super Bowl if it wasn't for the excellent playing of its defense and its special teams especially.

The New York Jets would not be in the playoffs, if it wasn't for the outstanding plays there special teams has done to date. But yet, it still takes the quarterback to direct the offense and score the points needed to win.

Drew Bledsoe has only had, I believe two teams in New England that had the ability to go to the Super Bowl, and even make it to the playoffs. Fact is, he played well enough to get them there, and most of his career he has had to play out of his dairyair, just to keep the team respectful.

So for you to say that there's no way Bledsoe is going to be able to play well enough, to make it happen! I want to know why you didn't win the Powerball when it was $300 Plus million a couple weeks ago, it seems you know the future so well, and you can predict how our team is going to do, under the leadership of Bledsoe. The only way you can predict this, you have to be using a crystal ball. There's, no other way to predict that type of future without one. Especially, how our team will thrive under Bledsoe ability or according to you inability.

Wys, I'm not predicting mine on Bledsoe, ability or inability, I'm predicting mine on the supporting cast that he's going to get. So you see Wys, I feel if a mediocre quarterback like Brady can lead his offense to the Super Bowl and win, because of his supporting cast. A better than mediocre quarterback like Bledsoe should be able to do it with less. No crystal ball for me, just common sense.

GO!!!...BUFFALO!!!...

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
Who would you rather have, Kelly or Bledsoe?

Who would you rather have, Bledsoe or Chris Chandler?

Oh yeah, you answered that one already...:rofl:


And your QB of the future? I think you mentioned Gannon?

I think he's got a job...NFL MVP.....:couch:

[WG]

DH,

I agree w/ some of what you say. But you seem to give all the credit to Drew for "taking the Pats to the playoffs."

Answer me this:

Q: In 1996, N.E.'s Super Bowl season, the Pats beat the Steelers 28-3 in the divisional PO game. The D and STs obviously played well holding Pittsburgh to only 3 points. Martin had a huge day rushing for 166 yards and 3 TDs. Bledsoe went 14 of 24 for 164 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. In spite of the INTs, the D held to allow no points off TOs.

D: allowed only 3 points all game
Martin: Had a career day w/ near 200 yards and 3 TDs
Bledsoe: Had two INTs and only 1 inconsequential TD by the time he threw it.

The question is, why did the Pats win that game?

A. On the merits of Drew's 1 TD, 2 INT, 164 yd. performance
B. On the merits of Martin's 166 yard/3 TD rushing day
C. On the merits of outstanding D and STs allowing the Steelers to only score 3 points all game
D. B & C
E. The D, STs, and Martin only played well b/c Drew was the QB


Q 2 would be who was responsible for the win the following week v. the Jags 20-6 in a game in which the offense only scored 1 TD on a TO by the Pat D that set them up at the Jags' 4 yard line and a drive on which they only ran the ball in for the team's only offensive TD of the game.

You want to say that Drew "led them to those wins" when the fact of the matter is that O'Donnell could have started and won under those circumstances. The other playoff games of his are no different.

Yeah, perhaps with "more talent and chemistry around him" he'll better "lead" us to the SB or to do well in the POs. But it would certainly be a first if he did.

On the flip side, he may also continue to play just as he did this year and always has. He may continue to have poor games against the best opponents, including the playoffs, and have key errors in those games.

You and others love to dismiss Drew's errors on poor OL play, dropped balls, bad protection, no running game, etc. But never having anything at all to do w/ his own poor decision making and bad mechanics. There's a reason why he struggles against the best of teams; it's b/c they know that to rattle him you blitz and pressure him. Even w/ excellent OL play, it only takes a couple of "get-throughs" to force him into key errors. That's all it takes often and certainly that's all it's taken in the past. Sure, he plays well for most of the game. It is only those 3 or 4 times during the course of the game that he makes such errors. But that is often more than enough such as was the case in several games this season. G.B., Raiders, N.E. (2nd). He doesn't make those mistakes in those three games and we're 10-6 or 11-5 and playing host to Indy this week.

[WG]

Originally posted by BillsFanOne
Great post!

I'm sure Green Bay feel that Favre is a big mistake. After tonight's game (sarcasm alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

O.K.

So one vote is in.

Bledsoe is as good as Favre.

Why don't you go ahead and post a poll there BFO and we'll invite some fans from neutral sites to come vote too. Just let me know so the sound of laughter doesn't knock me off of my chair.

I guess I'll go back into my "Drew's the man" mode now... :D

It's time for that parody piece I've been holding onto! hehehe...

[DIHARD2]

Wys, I think if you read what I wrote, you would see I said Bledsoe, had the (supporting cast) or the other parts of the equation, when he took New England to the playoffs and the Super Bowl.

I also stated that New England depleted all of his weapons and his protection to wear he had to play out of his dairyair a.k.a. A double s, in order to make something happened and he did.

I'm not trying to say that Bledsoe is God gift to quarterbacks, but I am saying he is a little bit above the average quarterback. Until he wins the Super Bowl which he will, (barring injury), he will not be respected by stats hounds such as yourself. What's on paper doesn't always reflect reality.

The fact is he stands there and he'll take the abuse and make something happened more often than not. You have to admit, he kept New England respectable quit a few years without a supporting cast. So you can say what you want about him, and you can look at all his status, but there is one that doesn't show, no actually two.

One, he would stand there in the pocket and he would for some magical reason or his toughness, and every time you thought he's going down, he actually makes a completion to someone to keep a drive going, now, it's baffling.

Two, the numbers of passes that were dropped that should have been caught by his receivers do not reflect in those stats.

So that's why stats are good for picking quarterbacks like RJ and giving him 25 million dollars. I bet, if you look at RJ's stats, I would not be surprised, that it does not reflect his piss poor playing this year. Only, because of him eating the turf with the ball in his hands.

GO!!!...BUFFALO!!!...

[Captain gameboy]

I don't think Drew's past playoff performances have anything to do with how he might perform in the future. What will matter is the offensive system, the line play, the skill position level of play and the opposition. What he did as a Patriot matters not in the least.
Regarding a Bledsoe vs. Kelly comp., I would disagree with some claims made above. First, the Reed. Lofton, Beebe and name one of the many tight ends, was not a group that was significantly less capable than what we have now. They were a very good group. This year's trio of receivers was in the first year of a new system with a new QB, and one was a rookie. They weren't. Second I think Thurmon in his prime was far more of a factor than the Henry/Centers combo. Henry is a very good runner. Thomas was the total package. He was a much more dangerous receiver than Centers and was unparalleled in blitz pickup and situational awarness. Henry will get better, Centers would not be missed.
Kelly and Bledsoe both forced passes. Bledsoe has a better arm. Neither was mobile, but Kelly had better escapability. This is something that can be compensated for, to some extent. With the line gaining valuable experience this year, we might be able to roll the pocket to keep the up the middle pressure off. That way, DB can roll, then set for his throws with good vision lanes and little pressure. Not possible this year with alll the line changes in pre-season. Kelly played on a team with much better special teams, and didn't have to finsih drives as long as we have to now. Regardless, we simply can't give up deep red zone turnovers-either by him or Travis. This was the first year this group was together and all were playing under a new system.
Another point which I think is important in comparing them is the strength of the conference and division. The Bills successes were against a fairly weak AFC, and a much weaker AFC east.

[DIHARD2]

gameboy, a very good point on the difference of opponents and their skill factor that Kelly and the Bills of the Super Bowl years play as compared to the teams skill factor today. I have to agree with your statement on that fact.

So actually there really isn't any way to analyze these two as Bills quarterbacks. So I guess this is just a good off-season discussion with no true facts that are able to be judged as apples for apples.

GO!!!...BUFFALO!!!...

[SoCalBillsFan]

Wys, do you really think that Drew will lose playoff games for us if he's got a better team around him? I believe that improving the D and special teams will help a lot. And improved playcalling will as well.

For example, you like to point out the raider game a lot when bledsoe threw the interceptions. But go back to that 35-31 when he did throw the pick. What if the D would have held them to a field goal. It's only 38-31, only down 1 score. I think bledsoe would have played better. He makes mistakes trying to do too much. It's not something you can prove I know, but it could be true.

It's a waste to talk about this. He's gonabe the starter. Let's get some more players on D and see what happens.

[Fat Tony]

Better yet, how's about a defense that doesn't surrender 35 points by the third quarter

[SoCalBillsFan]

Seriously. That's why I don't understand how the raiders game was bledsoe's fault. Even without his picks we gave up 35 points.

[PA Season Ticket Holder]

Originally posted by BillsFanOne
Great post!

I'm sure Green Bay feel that Favre is a big mistake. After tonight's game (sarcasm alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

Favre has turned into a mediocre QB with age. Players like Rich Gannon doesn't come around very often. I'll give Favre at least 1, maybe 2 more mediocre years and then he'll be done.

For some saying Drew will be around for the next 6 years and stuff. It will never happen.

[Ingtar33]

Wys,

That Steelers PO game you were talking about... I remember that game quite well, it was the game that was so foggy you couldn't see anything, it was very cold and wet and neither team could get anything going through the air because no one could see the football and if they did see it was too wet and slippery to catch.

Furthermore, that Jax game was against an extremely good Jax team, which had knocked of the Bills in Rich Stadium (Kelly's last game) and then went to Mile high to knock off the AFC favorites the Denver Broncos (a team which would win the next two superbowls). Jax was no pushover, and Bledsoe had a very good game against an extremely good pass rush.

Finally, I don't think anyone who watched the superbowl (Bledsoe QB'd) would blame him for the loss. The Pack scored 10 on their first two drives (the first TD on the second play from scrimmage, and the FG on an astounding INT which was a great defensive play by Evans, and Curtis Martin was unable to run against a very good Pack front four. If you recall, Drew led the Pats back to take a temporary 14-10 lead. In the second quarter Favre hit Freeman for an 81yard TD pass, then followed that up with another TD pass after a Howard return which gave the Pack the ball in NE territory. Bledsoe, now in throw every down mode, was harassed the rest of the game, and his 2nd INT was a direct result of pressure form the Pack front, which was converted by GB into 3 points (Bledsoe's 2 INTs= 6points for the Pack). The score at the half was 27-14. Bledsoe and Martin combined to eat up the yards in the beginning of the second half resulting in a TD to make the game 27-21. Then all hell broke loose, as Howard would return the ensuing kickoff 99 yards for a TD and the score would remain 35-21 as Bledsoe would be harassed and sacked by the extremely aggressive Pack front four forcing several more sacks and two more Bledsoe INTs (one was a very poorly thrown pass, the other was a bobbled pass by V.Brisby who was promptly cold-clocked and a second Packer INTed the still airborne ball. (Final tally, 4 INTs which lead to 6 points)

*The reason I felt the need to recap this game is because we've all seen this before in our own (the Bills) Super Bowl losses, with turnovers and other strange and amazing plays all helping out the opposition. Do any of us truly blame Jim Kelly for any of those Superbowl losses? Isn't football a team game?

To claim that Bledsoe was a detriment to his team, and dismiss team success to the play of another equally important cog (Curtis Martin) is an overly simplistic take on football. If you follow the logic that Martin and the Defense and Special Teams were the reasons for the Pats first superbowl appearance, then they were most certainly the reason for their superbowl loss as what made them a winning team didn't perform in the most important game of the year. Furthermore, in the history of football, no one player has been responsible for a team's total success or failure. If Drew was sacked 7 times in a super bowl, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the Pats O-Line wasn't doing a good enough job blocking the Pack, or the receivers or O-Coordinator were not making the adequate blitz reads in addition to it being Bledsoe's fault for not reading the defensive scheme properly? (In 1996 Bledsoe was sacked that season on only 1 for every 22 passing attempts). Furthermore, couldn't you fault the defense and special teams for their poor play which lead to a huge and nearly insurmountable lead for the pack, which forced the Pats to become one dimensional?

All I’m saying is that nothing is cut and dry, and statistics don’t mean a darn thing. All that counts in the end is the W, and since two teams play there always has to be a loser. Drew (and no other QB in the world) will ever win all their games. There will be bad games, and the better the opposition, the more likely your team will lose. This is a reality all players face. Drew lost a duel to Brett Favre in a superbowl he wasn’t supposed to win. One man had to lose. Favre, or at least his team made the fewest mistakes, and played the brand of superior football that made them the best team in the league that year. The Pats barely bothered to show up. It’s the rare, truly great, legendary player who could raise the play of the players around him, and single-handedly lead his teams to victory through shear force of will. Favre is one of those guys, Montana was one, so was Elway, Bradshaw and Unitas. Is Bledsoe? Not Yet. However think about how few of those players there are in NFL history. Also realize that Bledsoe has had very few opportunities, and half his career ahead of him.

I’ll never forget Superbowl XXXII. We saw greatness on the field that day, as Elway lead his team to an underdog victory over those same Packers that Bledsoe had lost to the year before. Elway, the man who had lost 3 superbowls, and was arguably second fiddle on an explosive offense which featured a young Terrell Davis, lead that team with shear force of will, stunning Favre who would come up short in a last minute drive. Up until that point in his career, Elway had come up short in big games. The same labels were affixed to him and his 37year old arm that you’re now attaching to Bledsoe (in fact Drew has more 4th quarter comebacks at this point in his career than Elway did after 10 seasons). But Elway grew, and became a legend on that field. He would put the exclamation point to that legend with a superbowl victory and MVP award the following year.

Wys, I think your expectations are too high. We currently have a QB who (with another year like this one) will be just 1000 yards off of Dan Marino’s career yardage mark. A QB who just had one of the greatest years in Bills football history, and was top 10 in nearly every pertinent stat, in addition to this being one of his finest years. QB’s with his talent and ability are rare in the NFL, only a handful come along each decade. Personally, I can’t see any viable option other than to wait and see if he’ll join the ranks of NFL legends, or just hover with Marino as another guy with a huge gun. Personally, I think Drew is good enough right now to win a superbowl, after all Trent Dilfer has a ring.

Sorry this was so long but I didn't want Wys to think I was generalizing.

[colin]

Ingtar is the greates fan alive.

From now on Wys has to call him Big Daddy.

Ingtar, can you give some kind of insight as to what would be a better O for our players? Is it just a modification of the current one?

thanx

[Ingtar33]

Well, as you know we are currently utilizing a vertical passing attack whose roots can be found in the old Run 'n Gun O's of the late 80's. In KG's entire career as an OC he has never had to deal with a slow or immobile QB (Ryan Leaf excluded), and personally I was worried that Bledsoe would get killed in today's NFL running this system. Well, Bledsoe got beaten, and sacked, however he really never was too banged up as our O-line seemed to keep the pressure largely off of him. Yet the question remain, what type of system I think would be a better fit.

Personally I think you could run almost any system and make it work with the type of offensive talent we have here. So what remains to be decided is how to best utilize that talent. Bledsoe is a pocket passer, who (like Payton Manning) has a quick mind and rarely gets frazzled by opposing defensive schemes. Until recent years (last three) Bledsoe was actually one of the hardest QB's in the NFL to sack (per pass attempt), and I think its no real mystery about why his sack numbers have gone up over the course of recent seasons, that reason would be Ben Coates. Bledsoe has never really formed a comfortable relationship with his safety valves like he had with Coates, so until he does (with someone on this roster) it should be up to the OC to figure out ways to keep Bledsoe better protected in the pocket.

As a result I'd say we should start to quicken the routs a bit more, and take some of the deep options out, since Drew doesn't seem to be able to control himself with regard to those options. I actually think Drew could fit quite well into a WCO, as he is smart enough to pick it up, and has always been a very studious and repetitious QB (you can tell who his first option is every time by watching his feet as he sets up from a drop back... a technique which he obviously learned on his own because it is one of the most difficult and unique skills a WCO QB is supposed to know). Personally, I think KG's offense is perfect for our skill players; however our line, while good and improving is not quite good enough for this system. If we were to go out into FA and bring in Orlando Pace then we'd have the line for this O. But we're not going to do that. Since Pace isn't an option, and it seems unlikely Gilbride will seriously change the system that leaves the improvement for our offense depending on Bledsoe's ability to bond with a safety valve like he had with Ben Coates.

*BTW: The reason for JR's absence from this offense was because Gilbride (who historically has made good use of his TEs) had Jay running safety valve routs all season. Jay didn't have the catches because Drew didn't use him much in that capacity (in essence KG and JR have taken a lot of heat because the system which was set up was for Jay to be a safety valve which Drew didn't trust. (you could see that Drew, when in trouble actually looked for Price to be his safety valve as Drew seemed to develop a good report with Peerless right from the get-go).

[colin]

I see, thanks for thin input Ingtar.

I think a switch of Big Mike and Jonas will work out well, I bet if Moore was healty all year he would have cought plenty of outlet passes.

I disagree with your previous assesment of the 46 and our ability to run it. Whether it is GW, or Grey, whoever made the changes late in the year threw in some new looks (i guess making it a modifyed 46/4-3) and it really worked out, in all down and distance situations.

I think when we add Spikes or Colvin or Noble or whoever gets cut, we will have a dangerous D, especially when our O puts so much pressure on opponents.

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Wys,

That Steelers PO game you were talking about... I remember that game quite well, it was the game that was so foggy you couldn't see anything, it was very cold and wet and neither team could get anything going through the air because no one could see the football and if they did see it was too wet and slippery to catch.

Furthermore, that Jax game was against an extremely good Jax team, which had knocked of the Bills in Rich Stadium (Kelly's last game) and then went to Mile high to knock off the AFC favorites the Denver Broncos (a team which would win the next two superbowls). Jax was no pushover, and Bledsoe had a very good game against an extremely good pass rush.

Finally, I don't think anyone who watched the superbowl (Bledsoe QB'd) would blame him for the loss. The Pack scored 10 on their first two drives (the first TD on the second play from scrimmage, and the FG on an astounding INT which was a great defensive play by Evans, and Curtis Martin was unable to run against a very good Pack front four. If you recall, Drew led the Pats back to take a temporary 14-10 lead. In the second quarter Favre hit Freeman for an 81yard TD pass, then followed that up with another TD pass after a Howard return which gave the Pack the ball in NE territory. Bledsoe, now in throw every down mode, was harassed the rest of the game, and his 2nd INT was a direct result of pressure form the Pack front, which was converted by GB into 3 points (Bledsoe's 2 INTs= 6points for the Pack). The score at the half was 27-14. Bledsoe and Martin combined to eat up the yards in the beginning of the second half resulting in a TD to make the game 27-21. Then all hell broke loose, as Howard would return the ensuing kickoff 99 yards for a TD and the score would remain 35-21 as Bledsoe would be harassed and sacked by the extremely aggressive Pack front four forcing several more sacks and two more Bledsoe INTs (one was a very poorly thrown pass, the other was a bobbled pass by V.Brisby who was promptly cold-clocked and a second Packer INTed the still airborne ball. (Final tally, 4 INTs which lead to 6 points)

*The reason I felt the need to recap this game is because we've all seen this before in our own (the Bills) Super Bowl losses, with turnovers and other strange and amazing plays all helping out the opposition. Do any of us truly blame Jim Kelly for any of those Superbowl losses? Isn't football a team game?

To claim that Bledsoe was a detriment to his team, and dismiss team success to the play of another equally important cog (Curtis Martin) is an overly simplistic take on football. If you follow the logic that Martin and the Defense and Special Teams were the reasons for the Pats first superbowl appearance, then they were most certainly the reason for their superbowl loss as what made them a winning team didn't perform in the most important game of the year. Furthermore, in the history of football, no one player has been responsible for a team's total success or failure. If Drew was sacked 7 times in a super bowl, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the Pats O-Line wasn't doing a good enough job blocking the Pack, or the receivers or O-Coordinator were not making the adequate blitz reads in addition to it being Bledsoe's fault for not reading the defensive scheme properly? (In 1996 Bledsoe was sacked that season on only 1 for every 22 passing attempts). Furthermore, couldn't you fault the defense and special teams for their poor play which lead to a huge and nearly insurmountable lead for the pack, which forced the Pats to become one dimensional?

All I’m saying is that nothing is cut and dry, and statistics don’t mean a darn thing. All that counts in the end is the W, and since two teams play there always has to be a loser. Drew (and no other QB in the world) will ever win all their games. There will be bad games, and the better the opposition, the more likely your team will lose. This is a reality all players face. Drew lost a duel to Brett Favre in a superbowl he wasn’t supposed to win. One man had to lose. Favre, or at least his team made the fewest mistakes, and played the brand of superior football that made them the best team in the league that year. The Pats barely bothered to show up. It’s the rare, truly great, legendary player who could raise the play of the players around him, and single-handedly lead his teams to victory through shear force of will. Favre is one of those guys, Montana was one, so was Elway, Bradshaw and Unitas. Is Bledsoe? Not Yet. However think about how few of those players there are in NFL history. Also realize that Bledsoe has had very few opportunities, and half his career ahead of him.

I’ll never forget Superbowl XXXII. We saw greatness on the field that day, as Elway lead his team to an underdog victory over those same Packers that Bledsoe had lost to the year before. Elway, the man who had lost 3 superbowls, and was arguably second fiddle on an explosive offense which featured a young Terrell Davis, lead that team with shear force of will, stunning Favre who would come up short in a last minute drive. Up until that point in his career, Elway had come up short in big games. The same labels were affixed to him and his 37year old arm that you’re now attaching to Bledsoe (in fact Drew has more 4th quarter comebacks at this point in his career than Elway did after 10 seasons). But Elway grew, and became a legend on that field. He would put the exclamation point to that legend with a superbowl victory and MVP award the following year.

Wys, I think your expectations are too high. We currently have a QB who (with another year like this one) will be just 1000 yards off of Dan Marino’s career yardage mark. A QB who just had one of the greatest years in Bills football history, and was top 10 in nearly every pertinent stat, in addition to this being one of his finest years. QB’s with his talent and ability are rare in the NFL, only a handful come along each decade. Personally, I can’t see any viable option other than to wait and see if he’ll join the ranks of NFL legends, or just hover with Marino as another guy with a huge gun. Personally, I think Drew is good enough right now to win a superbowl, after all Trent Dilfer has a ring.

Sorry this was so long but I didn't want Wys to think I was generalizing.
:hail: Ingtar

[WG]

Ingtar,

I'll read all of this later. I only had time to glance over it. Very busy! But what you say is fine. But what I've heard is how "Bledsoe led the Pats" to this or that when in fact it appears that even by your own statements, that he didn't in fact play well for one of a variety or combo of reasons. That's fine. But then let's not give him personal credit for what he didn't do. To be clear, and again, it was the rushing of Curtis Martin, not the play of Bledsoe that won that game. You can blame anything you want on his poor performance, but then reasons/excuses/alibis are not "leading a team to do anything." How about saying "Yeah, he stunk up the joint" at worst, and at best saying "yeah, he didn't play well." B/c there's no other way to slice it. But "he led them to win those games" is outlandish. He barely contributed just like he barely contributed in the win v. S.D. and didn't contribute more positive than negative in games v. G.B., K.C., N.E., the Jets this year.

BTW, Jax was 9-7 that year. They were good, not great by any stretch. They scored 325 and allowed 335.

Besides, what about the Cleveland WC PO game in '94. He was horrible in that. What was his excuse then?

Or the Miami WC game in '97 in which he was adequate at best and the Div. PO game same year v. Pittsburgh in which he was horrible? What's his excuse in those?

Anyway, I'm not hearing refutations to my assertions that he didn't play well. What I'm hearing is excuses that may or may not hold water and I will assume that they do for the sake of argument. Even across the board and for games just mentioned. But then on the flip side, I don't care why he played poorly, and I'll even agree that it wasn't his fault, but then why are so many making the argument that essentially states that the "Pats wouldn't have won those games w/o him" when in fact, for viable reasons then, he was the weak link in just about all of those games?

It makes no sense. I'll agree with you if you and the others simply agree that in fact the Pats won those PO games in spite of him and not b/c of him.

To go further however, the Pats played 4 games against 3 teams that were 10-6 or better in '96 and beat only one of them. They were the Bills whom the Pats split with, and then Denver and Dallas.

In the three losses, the Pats put up a combined 24 points in those games; 10 v. Buffalo, 8 v. Denver, and 6 v. Dallas.

So I ask again, where is this "big game ability" of Drew's??

He was 21 of 46 for 210 and only 1 TD in the Bills game.
He was 20 of 40 for 178 and 3 INTs in the Dallas game.
He was 22 of 41 for 212 and 0 TDs and 1 INT in the Denver game.

That's 63 of 127 for 600 yards 1 TD and 4 INTs in those three losses to the best teams they played. What's even more interesting is that in the Bills game they won, he threw for 373 yards but could only put the ball in the Endzone once! Martin had a 10 yard TD run and the rest was FGs w/ some help by the D to score a TD.

So where's all this "big play/big game" ability. B/c history suggests otherwise! THAT was their SB season. Couple that w/ the fact that he played poorly, and for whatever reasons you want, in the POs, Drew wasn't responsible for the Pats success that year other than against teams that were not good.

His biggest games accounting for most of his 27 or 28 TDs that year were against the league's scrubs!

4 TDs against 4-12 Baltimore
3 TDs agains the 1-15 Jets
3 TDs against 8-8 Phins
4 TDs against the 8-8 Chargers w/ the 6th worst D in the league.

That's more than half of his TDs in only 4 games.

Just more of the same in '97!

Of the 10-6 teams they played, they were 1-4.

In the losses, 21, 13, 10, and 7 points. Yawwwn! Once again his worst performances:

Denver: 20 of 41, 1 TD, 1 INT, 234
G.B.: 20 of 36 for 268, 1 TD, 3 INTs
T.B.: 13 of 25 for 117, 0 TD, 2 INTs
Pitt: 21 of 36 for 211, 3 TDs, 2 INTs (INTs, again, were instrumental in the loss)

Played well v. Jax (11-5) in a win. Very well.

But as you can see, by and large, he doesn't do jack in the biggest games. And those were his two best seasons! He was supposed to have been at his best during those two years.

But again, 6 TDs, 12 INTs in those losses v. 10-6 or better and he won only 2 games v. such teams in those two seasons.

All I'm saying is let's give credit where it is due and not where it isn't. Everyone wants to credit Drew for only the good things while never allowing him to accept any of the responsibility for the bad.

[HotRod]

Wys Guy.... you're too busy to read the previous post(s), but can write a novel?

[HotRod]

btw... Ingtar33, I enjoy your breakdowns/analysis, very informative and unbiased.

[PA Season Ticket Holder]

Originally posted by HotRod
Wys Guy.... you're too busy to read the previous post(s), but can write a novel?

That's just an average lenth post for Wys

[DIHARD2]

Wys
"What's even more interesting is that in the Bills game they won, he threw for 373 yards but could only put the ball in the Endzone once! Martin had a 10 yard TD run and the rest was FGs w/ some help by the D to score a TD."

Wys, how many balls were dropped by the receivers, or broken up by a good defensive play in the end zone that day? There isn't anything in the stats and I don't remember the game and I do not have it on tape. The same thing with those other games how many passes were dropped by receivers that should have been caught, or broken up by a good defensive play?

I know this year, I remember three touchdown passes that Price dropped. I remember one touchdown pass being called back by a penalty which game I can't remember. The point is I saw Bledsoe make a completion with defensive players wrapped around him, when most quarterbacks would have eaten the dirt by then, a couple of times.

Stats only show part of the picture. I know that Bledsoe stunk up the game a couple of times, but all quarterbacks even the best do.

If you were able to tell me how many passes that were right in the receiver's hands but were dropped or a good defensive play broken up a touchdown pass, then I would have to totally agree with you, if all that picture was there. But on average Bledsoe played extremely good for a quarterback with a first year line, consisting of rookies and first year players.

You cannot judge, until after this next season. We, really don't know how Bledsoe and his team will be once they are whole.

As for his pass deeds in Boston, please show the whole picture. Tell me how many would be touchdown were broken up by a good defensive play. Tell me how many, would be touchdowns were right in the receiver's hands, but were dropped. Then I might agree with you.

But to judge with just using stats, RJ looks good with his stats even before he took the final hit last year.

Wys, I know you're going to say that passes are dropped and defenses are going to break up a good play. But, the point that I'm trying to make is, those things when looking at stats make a quarterback look bad. 30 years from now, and there is no one around to tell those games to the younger new 20-year-olds, and they look at the stats, they will see and think that Bledsoe, and a lot of other excellent quarterbacks were mediocre, again according to stats.

On average, the games I've seen Bledsoe play have been exciting and I have seen him make magic, just as I've seen him flounder. I have the same memories of Jim Kelly, Jack Kemp, Darryl LaMonica but a little less, I felt that LaMonica on average played a better game then Kamp.

GO!!!...BUFFALO!!!...

[Ingtar33]

DieHard2,
I think you just made my point better than I did. Sometimes great teams make great plays.

Wys,
The Jags that year were much better than stats suggest, and I remember that year like yeasterday and that team got better as the year went on. Personally I was stunned when the Pats beat the Jags, since I figured they had everything needed to make it to the superbowl.

[WG]

They were still 9-7 and allowed more points than they scored. Say what you will, the Jags finished strong, very strong, but onlyi against teams at .500 and worse, far worse in several cases. They only beat two teams above .500 and of their 7 losses, 5 were to teams .500 or less. So slice that any way you want to, it surely doesn't spell Cinderella team in the playoffs.

As to the rest, we're not making any progress here. You've cited weather, dropped passes, and several other reasons why Drew's play can be discounted w/ only his own performances not drawing much criticism. I'm happy to engage you on this, but you're throwing up generalizations while I've provided many details. I'll provide one more set to back up my statements, and then if you'd like, I'd be happy to engage you in a debate (it's a loooong off-season) at our leisure and convenience on a more point by point basis in which we both ask and answer each others questions.

As to the passes dropped, all I can say is how many of them actually, not maybe, probably, or hypothetically, changed the outcomes of games from wins to losses? B/c I really don't care if Price dropped a pass that would have put us at the opponent's 32. Drew has not been good in the red zone and that in no way negates any possible, same as your argument, scores.

In the meantime, here are six games that Drew specifically and directly cost us. Why we were in those circumstances notwithstanding. If you want to blame the playcalling, then what that says to me is "we can't trust Drew in those circumstances and the play calling should have discluded him."

K.C. game: After going 1 for 3 on the drive, and with nearly 5 minutes left in the game from our own 40 and down by only 1 point, and with Henry averaging over 5 YPC, on 2nd-and-10, Drew tossed a key interception to end the game! D held the Chiefs to 17 points, the best O in the league! Fault for the loss: Drew Bledsoe!

G.B.: Drew tossed the interception that set up G.B.'s only score at out 39 YL. On the flip side, Drew, on a golden opportunity set up by Kevin Thomas, Drew tossed a key INT to end our drive and chances for a TD. He also threw another INT to set up the Pack at our own 45 but thankfully they ran out of time at the end of the 2nd Q and were only able to run 4 plays. In any case, those first two are a 14 point swing and that speaks nothing of his foibles on the last drive(s) either. D held the Pack to 10 points, only 3 of which were not set up by Drew. Fault for the loss: Largely Drew Bledsoe!

N.E. (game 2): Drew tossed an INT to a DE to set up the Pats 1st-and-10 at our own 6 YL. The Pats went up by 17 which demoralized the entire team indicating shades of the first game down by 17 after only a Q. Again, on the flip side, on the very next Bills drive, he tossed yet another key INT in the red zone on 2nd-and-goal at the Pats 1 YL. That cost us 7. It also represented a 14 point swing! D held the Pats to only 10 points not off TOs and 20 total regardless if you don't count Drew's setup at our 6 YL. Fault for the loss: Drew Bledsoe!

Jets (game 2): At :40 left in the 1st Q, score tied at 3, Drew tossed a key INT that set the Jets up at the 50, gave them tons of momentum, and allowed them to score putting them up by 7. On the very next drive, he did the exact same thing again! This time setting up the Jets at the 42 for yet another score and more momentum to put them up by 17 and to put us behind that everyone says is the D's fault. In fact, it's Drew's. He ended 2 of 10 drives for the game, 2 of our first 3 drives, and 2 of our 4 1st half drives. Fault for putting us in a hole by 14 points: Drew Bledsoe! Fault for the game, mostly Drew Bledsoe. Of the other 6 drives, one was merely a time runner-outer by Van Pelt. On 3 of the other 5 drives, two were also ended by Drew; one on a low thrown ball that was blocked at the LOS on 4th-and-2 to end a key drive. Yet another ended by a fumble on a sack on 2nd-and-6 that Drew should have thrown the ball away on. That's 4 drives of 9 viable ones that were personally ended by Drew Bledsoe. Three TOs in that game, all three were Drew's! D held the Jets to only 17 points that were not off of Drew's TOs. Fault for the loss: Almost entirely Drew Bledsoe!

Jets game #1: Drew tossed a key INT into coverage setting up the Jets' 2nd TD at our own 19 YL w/ ~ 10:50 left in the 1st Q.

But Wys, Henry had a fumble lost in that game. Yes, yes he did. but unlike Drew, this fumble did not end up in Jet points. As a matter of fact, we held the Jets to 3 and out and got the ball back at just about the same spot before we got the ball back and Drew took a 10-yard loss on a sack and then went 2 for 3 for 4 yards to end that drive. D held the Jets to 14 regulation points that were not set up by Drew's INT, a blocked punt both near/in our red zone, and a runback.

Anyway, fault for the Jets (1) loss: Primarily Drew Bledsoe, offensively anyway. STs secondly. Yes, the STs cost us the loss in O/T, but the game would not have gone to O/T if Drew had not tossed two back-to-back INTs that gave the Jets both momentum and 14 points! We would have won in regulation! The ST's runback would have been moot! Also, it was Chad Morton, not some stiff.

Raiders: Again, in this game, trailing by only 4, Drew tosses an INT on a drive that began at our own 20 and on which we were entering scoring range. Instead, Drew tosses an INT to the rookie Buchanon who returns it for a TD. To then compound matters, Drew responds favorably, right? Wrong! On the subsequent drive, he takes two sacks on 1st and 2nd down and then overthrows Moulds to ice the game. The Raiders only scored again on the following drive when the game was obviously out of control and the D was dejected!
Fault for the loss, the D for allowing 28 points (when it mattered) and other than the 7 that Drew set up. And Drew, for absolutely and completely choking on the two most important drives of the game to swing the game by 14 to cut us out of a score and give the Raiders a TD.


That's 4 games this season that he cost us, 2 that he helped cost us, and all 6 that he did more harm than good in. In every single one of those games, Drew did more harm than good! He may have done some good, but again, he did more harm!

As I see it, we could have easily been 12-4 to 14-2 if we had only had a QB who didn't make mistakes. Heck, if an average QB couldn't have beaten Chicago, Houston, Detroit, Cincy, Minnesota, Miami w/ Lucas, and S.D., then this team is not better than last year's squad, which it is, but not mostly b/c of Drew.

Those are the facts. So argue the weather, the fans, the smoke from the cannons, dropped passes that didn't directly influence the game, and oh, BTW, when every other QB in the league has the same issues, but those facts are facts and they hurt the team this year. Immensely. Unfortunately, any honest Pats fan will tell you that this is exactly the way Drew has played throughout his career. Exactly. Nothing has changed for those who care to see the truth. As far as I was concerned, this trade would only have been wise if he had shed those issues and changed his play. The first 4 3/4 games almost had me convinced he had. But then reality! He in fact hasn't.

So if you like a QB to throw for yards out the wazoo, set attempt and completion records, make several WRs look great, then he's your guy. If you want one that you can rely upon, not to play outstanding in the biggest of games and keyest of situation, but merely to not give games away in those games b/c of stupid and ridiculous errors, then Drew's not your man! We're not asking for excellence here, we're asking for a "lack of choking!"

Anyway, that's what his past playoff performances suggest regardless of who did what, what color socks the fans were wearing, etc.

BTW, in your analysis of "dropped passes", did you ever include the huge ones that Price and Moulds caught this year that 98% of other WRs would have dropped b/c they were either poorly thrown! Just checking.

Let's drop this unless someone wants to take this up by looking at specific moments in specific games. It makes no sense to have one side writing off things using generalizations when it befits the arguments at hand while the other cites specific instances that are dismissed for another set of generic and general reasons and/or for arguments that several who argue the contrary have openly admitted they don't read.

You know where to find me. In the meantime, I'm not expecting anything different next season.

Here's a parting Q:

How does a QB who has only thrown more than 20 TDs only 4 seasons out of 10 become included amongst the best in the game? Simply due to yards, attempts, and completions? And alternate pro-bowl selections?

15/15
13/16
20/14
19/21
17/13
2/2 (starting horribly leading his team to an average 10 PPG on pace for a 16/16 year against two bad teams)

And heck, one of his 4 good seasons was 25/27. Don't know about you, but that's way too many INTs to be considered as good. What else is interesting about that particular season, it was the season in which he was 0-1 v. 11-5 team, 2-2 v. 10-6 team, and 3-1 v. 9-7 team and 5-2 v. teams 8-8 or less.

In the POs that season, in the toughest game of the year, he was 21 of 50 for 235 yards, 1 TD, and 3 INTs in "leading" the Pats to 13 points in a WC game. 0-2 v. teams 11-5 including that.

This is good?

And correspondingly, if I can find another who has done the same TD production wise w/o all the yards and attempts, or close to it w/ lesser talent around him, will you admit that they are about the same?

[WG]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Well, as you know we are currently utilizing a vertical passing attack whose roots can be found in the old Run 'n Gun O's of the late 80's. In KG's entire career as an OC he has never had to deal with a slow or immobile QB (Ryan Leaf excluded), and personally I was worried that Bledsoe would get killed in today's NFL running this system. Well, Bledsoe got beaten, and sacked, however he really never was too banged up as our O-line seemed to keep the pressure largely off of him. Yet the question remain, what type of system I think would be a better fit.

Personally I think you could run almost any system and make it work with the type of offensive talent we have here. So what remains to be decided is how to best utilize that talent. Bledsoe is a pocket passer, who (like Payton Manning) has a quick mind and rarely gets frazzled by opposing defensive schemes. Until recent years (last three) Bledsoe was actually one of the hardest QB's in the NFL to sack (per pass attempt), and I think its no real mystery about why his sack numbers have gone up over the course of recent seasons, that reason would be Ben Coates. Bledsoe has never really formed a comfortable relationship with his safety valves like he had with Coates, so until he does (with someone on this roster) it should be up to the OC to figure out ways to keep Bledsoe better protected in the pocket.

As a result I'd say we should start to quicken the routs a bit more, and take some of the deep options out, since Drew doesn't seem to be able to control himself with regard to those options. I actually think Drew could fit quite well into a WCO, as he is smart enough to pick it up, and has always been a very studious and repetitious QB (you can tell who his first option is every time by watching his feet as he sets up from a drop back... a technique which he obviously learned on his own because it is one of the most difficult and unique skills a WCO QB is supposed to know). Personally, I think KG's offense is perfect for our skill players; however our line, while good and improving is not quite good enough for this system. If we were to go out into FA and bring in Orlando Pace then we'd have the line for this O. But we're not going to do that. Since Pace isn't an option, and it seems unlikely Gilbride will seriously change the system that leaves the improvement for our offense depending on Bledsoe's ability to bond with a safety valve like he had with Ben Coates.

*BTW: The reason for JR's absence from this offense was because Gilbride (who historically has made good use of his TEs) had Jay running safety valve routs all season. Jay didn't have the catches because Drew didn't use him much in that capacity (in essence KG and JR have taken a lot of heat because the system which was set up was for Jay to be a safety valve which Drew didn't trust. (you could see that Drew, when in trouble actually looked for Price to be his safety valve as Drew seemed to develop a good report with Peerless right from the get-go).

I would agree w/ most of that. Where I differ is where you say Drew could fit into a WCO. I think he'd get killed in there. It's his short passing game that struggles and that's one of the foci of the WCO. Taking Drew's deep game and his 20-yard out game, which wasn't really properly utilized this season, away from him is like taking the wings off of a bird. Also, and I know this is gonna draw heat, but I don't think he thinks quickly enough to look over 2 or 3 options within a short period of time. That's exactly why he misses open guys frequently. He looks for his top or 2 most fav targets, which has been a trademark of his, and if they are not open, then he gets rattled and doesn't make good decisions. That's why Moulds and Price had the recpts. they did. Reed was our #3 WR w/ only about 1/3 of either WR, 1/6 total. C. Johnson was our 4th, he only caught 3 balls all season.

JR and Moore both were open at times where I was screaming at the set for Drew to hit them and he wasn't even looking for them as he was running or just before going down for a sack. He had the opportunity to form the "relationship" w/ JR or Moore that he had w/ Coates, but didn't. You also have to realize that Coates was one of the most prolific TEs to play the game while he was teamed w/ Bledsoe. We can't expect to have that type of talent always. Same w/ the OL. In today's NFL, putting together a HOGs or Boys OL ain't gonna happen. So you have to adjust. To think that you can is unrealistic. As well, you blame the OL for Drew's sacks, but I gotta tell ya, and I know you'll remember this if you think back, but many of his sacks were taken w/ plenty of time in the pocket in which he simply couldn't find a man b/c he was only looking deep for M/P. I remember at least 10-12 sacks on which he had a good 7 or 8 seconds back there. If you can't do something with that, then there's a problem.

I agree with you on your strategy for this team. I cannot differ more that Drew will fit into any of it. As well, here we are trying to do what we said wouldn't be necessary and what we really can't afford to do w/ having gone for a veteran instead of one of this year's highly proclaimed prospects. Namely tyring to find out what works better for Drew, etc. He was supposed to be "plug-n-play." Many said that if it took him two or three seasons to work in, then it wouldn't be worth it and relatedly that he would be capable of stepping in and being of immediate use no matter what we did practically. Well, now we're talking about the former.

It's a slippery slope for sure. We'll see, but if we have to spend next season "trying out things" while Drew gives away 3, 4, or 5 games again on his TOs, then we have a problem. We need to run more, but again, we had that opportunity this year, and at times for which only a slap upside the head w/ a 4x4 would have painted the picture any more clearly, even to the point of losing games, and that decision was still not made! With Gilbride here, what makes anyone hold out hope that that's going to change to the extent that you mentioned next season?

I don't think it will and there's nothing to suggest that it will. Moulds may start cryin' up a storm if it does. He likes his catches. Price will for sure if he's only on pace for 70 or 80 after this season if we resign him. Especially if Eric gets significantly more.

[Captain gameboy]

QB is a high risk position and Drew has made his share of mistakes. I think its a rare occurnece when a defeat can be blamed on one or two plays though.
I wonder what thread titles we'd be looking at now if we hadn't have made the move. Could the respect defenses showed for Drew's arm and his receivers have anything to do with Henry's yard per carry gain? Could his skill have anything to do with Price's career year? Could his encouragement and respectability have anything to do with a dramatic improvement in line play in spite of the total revamping of our line? Is there a possibility that the desireabilty of coming to Buffalo from a coach's/free agent's perspective might have something to do with the effect he's had? Is there a chance the attendance and ratings increases have something to do with having a QB who always gave us a chance? Was it more fun than last year?
I think the there is a significant chance we'd be reading threads like "Travis needs to go, we need a legitimate back," or "Thank goodness we'll finally be rid of Price," or "Why did we spend a second rounder on a WR," or worse, "When will the Bills leave Buffalo." I'm not saying Drew's the greatest thing in WNY since Niagara Falls, but I think this team was really at a crossroads after last year's debacle, and he had a good deal to do with this being a relatively good year, with still more promise in the future.
Work on his "fixation" problem, work on his "forcing" problem and we just might have a pretty good thing here.

[WG]

Originally posted by gameboy
QB is a high risk position and Drew has made his share of mistakes. I think its a rare occurnece when a defeat can be blamed on one or two plays though.

I wonder what thread titles we'd be looking at now if we hadn't have made the move. Could the respect defenses showed for Drew's arm and his receivers have anything to do with Henry's yard per carry gain? Could his skill have anything to do with Price's career year? Could his encouragement and respectability have anything to do with a dramatic improvement in line play in spite of the total revamping of our line? Is there a possibility that the desireabilty of coming to Buffalo from a coach's/free agent's perspective might have something to do with the effect he's had? Is there a chance the attendance and ratings increases have something to do with having a QB who always gave us a chance? Was it more fun than last year?

I think the there is a significant chance we'd be reading threads like "Travis needs to go, we need a legitimate back," or "Thank goodness we'll finally be rid of Price," or "Why did we spend a second rounder on a WR," or worse, "When will the Bills leave Buffalo." I'm not saying Drew's the greatest thing in WNY since Niagara Falls, but I think this team was really at a crossroads after last year's debacle, and he had a good deal to do with this being a relatively good year, with still more promise in the future.
Work on his "fixation" problem, work on his "forcing" problem and we just might have a pretty good thing here.

"I think its a rare occurnece when a defeat can be blamed on one or two plays though."

Well, certainly I laid out what happened. You can go verify yourself. In several of those games all the errors were Drew's while the rest of the team played solidly. You make the call.

"I wonder what thread titles we'd be looking at now if we hadn't have made the move."

Yeah, me too! With a powerhouse DL and only an average no-name QB, I suspect we'd be talking about this week's game!

"Could the respect defenses showed for Drew's arm and his receivers have anything to do with Henry's yard per carry gain?"

I suppose it could, but while that general theme gets repeated, what I seem to have remembered seeing in many games down the stretch is teams blitzing an awful lot and not respecting "his arm" or by respecting it "so much" that they know based on the past that they can rely on him to toss errors.

"Could his skill have anything to do with Price's career year?"

I think what had to do w/ Price's career year is 610 attempts of which probably near a third were thrown in his direction. If any other QB had been here and tossed 610 times, I find it difficult to believe that Price would have done any less. If Price had done that on only 510 or fewer attempts, then I'd be with ya on that one.

"Could his encouragement and respectability have anything to do with a dramatic improvement in line play in spite of the total revamping of our line?"

That could have had something to do with it. But then two things: why did Drew suffer so many sacks after having plenty of time on many of them? Secondly, what I think was the reason for the "dramatic improvement" was A. having had virtually no injuries worthy of note and then having a decent backup instead of 6 stiffs who were never drafted or were on their last legs, literally! Jennings in his second season, Williams, the top draft pick at OT, a veteran in Teague, second year Sullivan, the weak link BTW, and Brown with that talent around him I suspect did more to "dramatically improve" the OL than Drew did. JMO tho.

"Is there a possibility that the desireabilty of coming to Buffalo from a coach's/free agent's perspective might have something to do with the effect he's had?"

Yes, but perceptions do not change the facts of poor play and more importantly the consequences of lost games as a result.

"Is there a chance the attendance and ratings increases have something to do with having a QB who always gave us a chance?"

"Always given us a chance?" Another overused and unsubstantiated phrase. He cost us 4 games per above! Contributed largely in two others. Which games did he "give us a chance in" that outweighed all of that? Besides, I don't like "being given a chance!" I like winning.

"Was it more fun than last year?"

Depends on your perspective. Let's review;

Last year: Crap OL, crap QB, Henry as a rookie struggling as a result of the poor OL decimated w/ injuries. RJ! A defense in disarray.

This year: An incredibly revamped OL w/ more experienced vets and 2nd year players along with rookie phenom MW and backups better than last year's starters. Henry playing behind that line in his second season. A D that played top 10 ball for the last 9 or 10 games.

From better talent come greater expectations. Last year few expected much. The injuries doomed us. This year, injuries were virtually non-existant except for Spoon. The OL played so much above last year's that it isn't even in the same league or within one echelon of it.

I was disappointed last year. This year I was disappointed also. If we had won the games that we were supposed to win, then yes, it would have been more fun for me. But to see fans praise Drew as he's tossing game-losing INTs, no, that part of it wasn't much fun after week 6 or 7 when the offense for no explicable reason other than the ineffectiveness of Drew went completely flat!

So that is a matter of opinion. If we hadn't thrown away 6 games, then it would have been more fun. As well, if we're the best team in the league next year but only go 10-6 b/c Drew gives opponents 4 more games, then I'll be disappointed as well.

Again, many seem to be ignoring the facts in favor of subjective opinions. Because what we're talking here is that the "intangibles" totally outweigh the "tangibles." I for one don't agree with that.

[THATHURMANATOR]

DAMN!!!!!

[Earthquake Enyart]

If "ifs and buts" were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas.

Without Drew, this team wins about 4 games, and we have the 4th pick in the draft. We're praying that Cincy takes Palmer so we can have Leftwich (or vice versa). We can't get any free agents to come here to such a crappy team with a rookie QB. We roll out maybe a 6-10 next year and shoot craps in the draft again......

Drew moved the rebuilding up at least 1 year. No way are we in position to make a run for the playoffs with a rookie or journeyman QB in the non-Drew scenario.

[Captain gameboy]

Exactly Earthquake, that's the point I was trying to make.

[DIHARD2]

Wys, where are the stats on defensive plays that eliminates a good catch that makes a quarterbacks completion record or stats look bad. The same for drop catches that were right in the receiver hands.

You say we are arguing hypothetical, but stats mean nothing more than then something an agent can wave in front of a future teams general managers face, when trying to get a better paycheck for his client. That is until his client actually shows on national TV that he, like RJ, has good stats but cannot make a good decision at quarterback to save his soul.

The fact is Wys, we saw a RJ play and this year we saw Bledsoe in the Buffalo Bills red white and blue, and frankly I like what I saw in Bledsoe. I like the future for the team. That is something stats don't give you. You can always fledge numbers to make them look however you want. RJ's agent did that and got $25 million for worthless piece of crapola, from Wilson.

So again Wys, you're not showing the whole picture. If I remember correctly on that, one to three and out , Price had dropped a ball that was right in his hands which would have given us a first down on their 40. How many times did we have a first down null and void, because of a stupid penalty. All these things make a quarterback look worse than he is when it comes to stats.

So, give me a break Wys you are judging our team's future on a crystal ball prediction. If Bledsoe would have just taken more stacks like RJ, instead of trying to make something, you wouldn't have the stats you have to argue your point. Because Bledsoe would look like a hero on paper, if he would've had RJ mentality.

This is going to be my last comment on this thread because they're really isn't a way to argue something you feel. You can just tell when you see a future that is brighter than the past.

GO!!!...BUFFALO!!!...

[Mr. Miyagi]

I applaud you guys for staying with Wys on this so peacefully for so long. You must practice at home by arguing with your trash cans.:angry:

[WG]

I hear a fly or a mosquito buzzing around somewhere...

:D

[WG]

You want the "big picture" DH, no problem.

Here's who we beat:

Detroit 3-13
Chicago 4-12
Minnesota 6-10
Houston 4-12
Cincy 2-14
S.D. 8-8
Miami twice w/ Lucas at the helm

You guys have no credibility until you answer some of these questions and challenges. It's just hot air in the meantime.

More proof!

You guys all make the argument that we were 8-8 b/c of Drew. Well, I've already pointed out how Drew's personal errors, chokes, and miscues cost us the Raider, Jets, Pats, G.B., and K.C. games and were instrumental in losing two others, Pats and Jets. By the way, and for comparison sake, those teams that we lost to were: 8-8, 9-7, 9-7, 9-7, 11-5, and 12-4.

Anyway, you say that the reason we won those 8 games against stiff teams was b/c of Drew. Well, check this out. I'll list all the teams that those teams lost to that I believe are worse than we are, and I'll be conservative.

Detroit: Carolina, Minnesota, Chicago, Arizona.

We put up 24 against Detroit while Carolina & Minnesota put up 31, Chicago 20, and Arizona 23. So how were we all that great b/c of Drew? And for those of you who will argue that the earth is flat, their corresponding QBs were Peete, Culpepper, Plummer, and Chandler & Miller. All of whom had comparable or better games than Drew!

Chicago: N.O., Minnesota, Detroit, St. Louis, Carolina

We put up 27 in regulation and almost lost. N.O. 29, Detroit 23, Minn. 25, St. L 21, and Carolina 24! Oh boy, sign me up! Again, QBs for those teams, Brooks, the rookie Harrington, Culpepper, Bulger, and Peete.

Minnesota: Chicago, Carolina, Seattle. That game went to O/T too. We scored 39 in regulation but of that 14 were STs and D TDs, only 23 offensive points. Drew only had 2 TDs in regulation. Miller had 2 while Peete and Dilfer had 1 each. Those teams scored 27, 41, and 24 offensive points in regulation! So again, how do we need Drew?

Houston: Lost to Cincy, Jax, Baltimore, Washington. We scored 31 while Jax scored 24, Cincy 38, Balt. 23, and Wash. 26. WooWee!

Cincy: S.D., Carolina, Balt. twice, Jax. We scored 27 against Cincy. Those teams scored 34, 52, 38, 27, and 29. Go figure!

S.D.: St. Louis, Miami w/ Lucas, and Seattle. We scored 20. They scored 28, 30, 31!!! HELLO! McFly...

The two Miami games were weird since Lucas played in both. Nonetheless, Drew gets credit for the Buffalo game fully, and he played OK in the Miami game but not great by any stretch leading the O to only 16 points. Nevertheless, Miami played just about all playoff teams w/ Lucas in there besides us and Balt.

In any case, I find it difficult to believe that we wouldn't have won those other 6 games with anyone else at QB but Drew. To the contrary! It seems that worse QBs on worse teams w/ fewer tools offensively put up more points by-and-large or at least equal to it w/ lesser resources!

Once again, a total devoid of substance quashes the party-line. This whole keeps gettin' deeper I do notice however... ;)

[Cntrygal]

geeshh you forgot to mention that Lucas was taken out early in the 3rd (injury) and replaced by Fiedler.

[WG]

Yeah, and Fiedler sure was ready to come in, eh... ;)

They would have been better off w/ Rosenfels. Besides, I gave full credit to Drew for that game.

How 'bout the others? Do I have a second then? :D

Can I get an A-MEN!!!

[Captain gameboy]

Wys, I fully understand how useless it is for anyone to even attempt to forward an opinion contrary to your views about Bledsoe, without the fire hose being turned on. Part of the frustration lies in your firm belief that you can look at stats, or a poorly thrown ball and conclude the loss should be blamed on the QB. Most people don't hold that view. Most judge performance in context, as Ingtar successfully did, in my view, in his post regarding Drew's playoff history.
I think your view on Bledsoe was formed in concrete long before last April, and regardless of his success this season, nothing will change that view. Ten passing records, 4000 yards and a pro bowl invite. Big attendance increases, large increases in merchandise sales, great TV ratings. I know, that matters not. It should have been more with all those attempts.
Do you ever go back and re-read the Roosevelt speech you used to quote from?

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Wys Guy

How 'bout the others? Do I have a second then? :D

Can I get an A-MEN!!!

No.. I'm going to use an example that you set... I'll read your novels when I have time.

:p:

[Earthquake Enyart]

You forget how those games played out. We beat Chicago and Minny in OT with Drew. We barely beat Detroit. If you don't think Drew won both Miami games you should have your head examined. Without Drew this team could easily have been 3-13 again.

[WG]

Come on EE. Drew won both Miami games? Henry was a madman in both. In fact, other than that long TD to Moulds, which quite frankly wouldn't have happened had Madison not blown the coverage, it had nothing to do w/ Drew otherwise, then Henry had more rushing yards than Drew passing. The other Miami game was a good game by both Henry and Drew. Here you are now trying to give Drew the credit for the entire win there. I just don't get it. You accuse me of one thing to one side when it's fully substantiated, then do the same thing yourself w/o even a fraction of the support.

In the first Miami game the D held Miami to only 10 points and scored a TD. Do you think we would have won had they allowed Miami to score say 17 or 20 and hadn't scored a TD. Again, just as with Flutie, the offense puts up 16 in a win and it's their praise. :rolleyes:




Originally posted by gameboy
Wys, I fully understand how useless it is for anyone to even attempt to forward an opinion contrary to your views about Bledsoe, without the fire hose being turned on. Part of the frustration lies in your firm belief that you can look at stats, or a poorly thrown ball and conclude the loss should be blamed on the QB. Most people don't hold that view. Most judge performance in context, as Ingtar successfully did, in my view, in his post regarding Drew's playoff history.
I think your view on Bledsoe was formed in concrete long before last April, and regardless of his success this season, nothing will change that view. Ten passing records, 4000 yards and a pro bowl invite. Big attendance increases, large increases in merchandise sales, great TV ratings. I know, that matters not. It should have been more with all those attempts.
Do you ever go back and re-read the Roosevelt speech you used to quote from?

Several things. Forget stats. I just showed you, proved to you how Drew's individual and personal passes resulted in errors. He threw the INT to end the game on 2nd-and-10 v. K.C. Similar in the Raider game. Again in the G.B. game several times. Gave the Jets 14 points in one game, 7 in another. The Pats 10, 7 gimme just like the Raider game. I don't know where anything having to do w/ stats lies. Those were individual plays that cost us those games largely or entirely. Entirely, v. the Raiders, K.C., and G.B. What is happening is that you are closing your eyes to those simple facts. I didn't create them. I haven't established the way that Drew has played. I didn't do it, so why are you so harsh on my simply pointing out the facts and why are they unbelieveable. It's as if you think I've made them up or that those plays simply don't or didn't matter. Whatever...

If I didn't include the context, then I don't know what it was. I gave you the plays, stages of the games, scores, etc. What's funny is how many people really think we were down or behind in so many games when that simply wasn't true.

Q for ya: You said, "Part of the frustration lies in your firm belief that you can look at stats, or a poorly thrown ball and conclude the loss should be blamed on the QB."

Bledsoe tosses a horribly thrown ball into coverage that shouldn't have been thrown by many's admission which is returned for a TD to effectively end the game and eliminate a scoring chance!

Who's fault is it? The WRs? RBs? OL when he had plenty of time? The D? Coach? Fans?

K.C. He tosses an INT on 2nd-and-10 that is inexcusable going deep when there was absolutey no need to. As a matter of fact it transcended reason, wisdom, and logic.

Who's fault is that?

There are more as stated. But yes, I guess I view that as the fault of the QB.

Moreover, and this has been the mantra. I've clearly, oh so clearly shown many teams that beat the majority of teams that we beat w/ QBs nowhere near in recognition or "records" that Drew has and they're on teams w/o the same offensive tools around them and yet, they still outperformed us. If it was one game and the weather was a factor for us, then I could see it. But the weather was not a factor in any single one of those games. Not one. So how do you then explain, really, not simply by thrashing me, the notion that teams w/o QBs "as good as" Drew beat those same teams on the merits of better offense or near as good w/ half the talent??

This is ridiculous!

Lastly, which of all the records that Drew set this year contribute directly to points? Would you care to detail/outline that? I say none. Upstage me! Prove me wrong!

Attempts? Yardage? Completions? Which ones. B/c at least 7 of the 10 have to do w/ those.

Where are the scoring records? TDs? TD/INT ratio? Red Zone efficiencies? Where are they? Those are what win games IMO. Yes, it's only MO, but 302 yards on 45 attempts resulting in 28 completions w/ 7 points when Henry was not even used in the first Pats game certainly sums that up nicely, wouldn't you say?

My opinion on Bledsoe was formed over the past 6 seasons. He has developed a pattern, a proveable one, of playing poorly in the biggest games just as many who have watched him will attest to. You can ignore that if you will, which is exactly what you and many have chosen to do, but that does not alter those facts. I mean if this season doesn't support that notion in spades, I don't know what does. Of the 16 teams on our schedule, we beat the teams in the weakest 8 games and lost to those in the strongest 8. HELLO!!!

I thought thru the first 5 games or so that what many said would come to pass this year, namely that Drew had turned things around. But that INT to Buchanon began the downslide. While the ENTIRE team improved from the OL, to Henry, to the D, Drew's play got worse and everyone blames the weather when it was not a factor in most games and when Drew put up one of his best games in the worst weather game of the season. It's unreal. Drew is the same as he ever was for anyone caring to make an honest assessment. I cannot be anymore honest by admitting that I may have been wrong early on by openly stating that Drew was playing the best ball of his career. Obviously that changed drastically and discontinued once we hit the more difficult teams making me not think that anymore as the season went on.

Say what you will, but there's this aura around Drew that makes him immune to criticism. Apparently. I know of no other QB in the league who has his productivity over 10 seasons, Ie., 3 seasons even worthy of particular note, who is considered among the top 5 by many. Not one.

[Earthquake Enyart]

I never said he was top 5. But he beats the hell out of AVP or any of the junkpile QB's that were available last off season.

The one other thing I haven't heard mentioned was the intangible of leadership. Drew kept this crew together. You forget the RJ jailbreak season where everything fell apart. Drew didn't allow this to happen.

[WG]

EE, I just showed you how QBs like Peete, Chandler/Miller, Plummer, Kitna, Culpepper, Harrington, and the list goes on, beat teams with no running backs the caliber of Henry and no OL's nearly as good as ours was, beat teams the caliber of which you say we could only have beaten w/ Bledsoe at the helm.

Come on, how about a little, "maybe there's some merit to what you say Wy's"?? This is truly getting outlandish.

I'm finished with this unless someone wants to take some time to prove themselves w/ game analyses. Close your eyes if you want to. Be a "Bledsoe Groupie!" I don't care. But at least have the decency and forthrightness to admit some basic truths here. This is like arguing/debating/discussing w/ a potato.

You'll see next season. Drew will get just as rattled b/c there is no OL in the league that doesn't allow some pressure to get in at times. He'll continue to make the same stinkin' errors that he did this season and that have plagued him throughout his entire career.

BTW, once again, as usual, thanks for pointing out how all those yardage, attempt, and completion records really contribute to winning games! Thank you! :rolleyes:

[WG]

BTW, if those teams can beat 6 of the games we won with such talent as those I mentioned above, I certainly think that we could have and would have done it w/ VP or yes, even Brown. It's silly to even suggest otherwise. Those teams were just that bad. Maybe we wouldn't have given away 4, 5, or 6 games if VP had started...

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
EE, I just showed you how QBs like Peete, Chandler/Miller, Plummer, Kitna, Culpepper, Harrington, and the list goes on, beat teams with no running backs the caliber of Henry and no OL's nearly as good as ours was, beat teams the caliber of which you say we could only have beaten w/ Bledsoe at the helm.

:rolleyes:

Peete - 7-9
Chandler/Miller/Burris - 4-12
Plummer - 5-11
Kitna - 2-14
Culpepper - 6-10
Harrington 3-13

OK we should have signed Rodney Peete. :hitself:

[WG]

BTW, here's an interesting comparison:

Brad Johnson other than not having started in the NFL in his first season, has put up comparable numbers to Drew in the 6 seasons that he has started.

He has put up:

17/10 (started only 8 games)
20/12
24/13
11/15
13/11
22/6

Avg.: 18/11
Avg. Attempts ~ 450
Avg. Yards: ~3,000

Would you consider BJ as good as Drew?

Funny thing is he put up those in a fraction of the yards again proving how absolutely meaningless yardage alone is.

For comparison, Drew's seasons:

15/15*
25/27*
13/16*
27/15
28/15
20/14*
19/21*
17/13*
24/15

Avg.: 21/17
Avg. Attempts in the high-500s
Avg. Yards: ~ 3,800

I've asterisked the years that I have no idea why anyone considers spectacular or anything other than average or even below average.

[WG]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart


Peete - 7-9
Chandler/Miller/Burris - 4-12
Plummer - 5-11
Kitna - 2-14
Culpepper - 6-10
Harrington 3-13

OK we should have signed Rodney Peete. :hitself:

Surely you jest!

This is beginning to rival the 1+1=4 argument...

Why even bother responding!

:rolleyes:

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Wys Guy

Why even bother responding!

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: good question....

you said you were done with the thread. :p:

[WG]

By your own logic Peete's better than Drew, eh!

He had bigger games against Cincy than Drew did and led his team to twice as many points.

He also had a better game than Drew v. the Lions and led his team w/ it's paltry offense to more points in that game too.

So I guess, by the "I Love Bledsoe" logic, Peete's better. Perhaps we should have signed Peete. Surely if he could beat Cincy, Detroit, Minn. and Chicago in Carolina, he could do it w/ this team in Buffalo! Or no? Would he have done worse here?

Hmmm! A real conundrum now, eh! ;)

[WG]

Originally posted by Cntrygal


:rolleyes: good question....

you said you were done with the thread. :p:

I'm done w/ the detailed analysis of Drew's play this season. There's nothing more that can be said. It's all in there. ;)

Notice how absolutely no one has answered a single question relating to how Drew's "stats", which everyone discounts in every other context, was answered.

Funny, isn't it!

[Earthquake Enyart]

No the Carolina defense had nothing to do with those wins.

[WG]

So for them it was their Ds that held them to only 32 points v. Cincy?

I see!

And naturally, the reason the D played so well in 5 of our 8 wins, 10 PA, 17 PA, 17 PA, 13 PA, and 9 PA were all b/c of Drew.

Yeah, I can see your point.

It's all becoming so clear now...

[WG]

You really aren't serious, right?

This is just a ruse to get me goin'? Right?

Seriously.

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


I'm done w/ the detailed analysis of Drew's play this season. There's nothing more that can be said. It's all in there. ;)

Notice how absolutely no one has answered a single question relating to how Drew's "stats", which everyone discounts in every other context, was answered.

Funny, isn't it!

LOL... maybe nobody had the time or inclination to read 20 novel length posts to find your questions. :D

gotta get to work.. catch ya at lunch

[Earthquake Enyart]

Maybe Carolina will trade us Peete for Drew.

By your logic, though, we'd probably have to throw in a couple of draft picks.

[WG]

Originally posted by Cntrygal


LOL... maybe nobody had the time or inclination to read 20 novel length posts to find your questions. :D

gotta get to work.. catch ya at lunch

Fair enough. But that from the same people who say things can't simply be summed up "so easily". To boot, then they argue my points w/o even having read them. Then they use one set of reasoning to argue "for Drew" and then completely throw that line out when it is used against him. There's a word for that that begins w/ an "h."

Thus the problem... ;)


EE,

You leave me speechless!

[WG]

That's probably worthy of an award of some type BTW!!

:D

We can call it the "brick wall" award. A little something for both of us... ;)

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


To boot, then they argue my points w/o even having read them.



Guilty as charged. :biggrin:

[WG]

:biggrin: LOL

Thanks for being honest...

;)