The NFL's Boring Product

[Mr. Pink]

I'm laughing at the idea that the NBA is putting on a better product. Yeah, if you are a fan of one of the 4-5 stacked super teams. When futures betting opened, the Warriors were - 150 to win the championship, whereas you could get the ENTIRE FIELD at +120.

To adapt Mr. Pink's point, if Buffalo had an nba franchise it would be a disaster. Small market basketball teams are frequently losing talent to bigger media markets. Cleveland only managed to put together a title team because one of the best players of all time was born in their backyard and made it his personal mission. Then you have teams that have been intentionally tanking for close to 5 seasons.

On the point of the NBA, that's how you have to get good in todays league. There's no benefit to be a middling team as every year there is one or two distinct difference makers in the draft. So teams who could maybe pull out 30 wins don't bother and would rather win like 12 to get that elite talent. It takes more than one of those elite talents, so you see teams in the tank for multiple years to acquire talent.

Then went you snatch up that kind of talent with the NBA's convoluted salary cap rules, bird rights, early bird rights, exceptions, you can then pay 2-4 of your own homegrown talent anything you want up to max salaries while going out and getting other pieces and paying them ridiculous salaries too. It takes that elite talent up front though to entice other elite talent to jump to your team. Without Kyrie and the trade chips for Love, does LeBron come back to Cleveland? It's an interesting question and I'm not sure if you can give a definitive answer. I am pretty sure he wouldn't want to come back to a team that had a roster that looked like the 06 Cavs though.

Finally, in the NBA, you need an owner who is willing to pay all that money out. To spend not only to the cap but well passed it. The Cavs can be assembled the way they currently are because Dan Gilbert is willing not only to pay to the cap but well passed it. So well passed it that the Cavs have the highest salary in the NBA and are looking about 30 million in luxury tax penalty this year.

It doesn't really have to do with small market vs large market, it's all on the willingness of an owner to go out and spend like a drunken sailor IF his talent evaluators have done a good job grabbing talent during the lean years.

[YardRat]

Yeah, the NBA still sucks balls...unlike 20-30-40 years during the Bird-Jordan-Bad Boys era and when the Braves were in town. I often moan about losing the Braves, but considering the state of the pro game even if they were still here I doubt I'd pay nearly as much attention to them as I do the Bills.

[BillsOwnAll]

I actually "retired" from fantasy football because I can't watch it anymore. The NFL is terrible. There is a penalty and sometimes its extremely late.

No one knows what a catch is anymore. Enough said there.

The ultra pussifaction of a qb. If your tackling him and GRAZE his helmet... 15 yards first down.

It's to QB dependent too. Only 3-4 teams can actually win the super bowl every year. No reason Big Ben Brady or manning should make 12 outta 13 Super Bowls or something redic like that for a league that promises parity.

[swiper]

scoring is WAY down so your point is invalid. WAY DOWN. The problem is teams can't score anymore. 3-3- is becoming the norm not 50-40.

Scoring is way down because the players and the coaches (outside of Belichick) all suck.

[Mace]

Maybe it's just me, I still love the games, watch as much football as I can. Love the play by play, the color, the ex players, even the halftime sets and ex coaches, aging announcers and theme music. I love it a lot more when the Bills are winning, but I've been watching these teams for decades, they all bring back memories of players and moments and times spent watching them.

I truly enjoy the NFL. While I have some gripes about it, they're never enough to sour me. I even watch most blowouts to the end, will always find players I enjoy, and plays that please me. It's not much different now than it was when I was watching Len Dawson lead the Chiefs on a grainy black & white as a kid, or Unitas, Starr, etc.

A thread like this pops up once a season, and I always say the same stuff, pointing out I used to watch every sport, but remained hooked on football. I used to love baseball, can't watch it anymore for no reason I can say, same with basketball, hockey, soccer, even lacrosse. I figure that's just how my interests changed during life. If you don't enjoy it, scale back your emotion in it. People evolve, so do their interests. My gram used to tell me, once things change, they never go back to the same, no point in pretending they will. That about covered everything I've ever seen change.

I don't mean to be harsh, but if you're not enjoying something, don't pursue it, for your own benefit. I think most people are still enjoying it, they're just aggravated by the Bills year after year. It gets cumulative, and once you get aggravated everything annoying stands out much more clearly. When things go well, the annoying things are just background noise.

10 wins a year, playoffs and contending status, and everyone rediscovers their love of the game. Sure would be nice if it happened though.

[sahlensguy]

Yeah, the NBA still sucks balls...unlike 20-30-40 years during the Bird-Jordan-Bad Boys era and when the Braves were in town. I often moan about losing the Braves, but considering the state of the pro game even if they were still here I doubt I'd pay nearly as much attention to them as I do the Bills.

I live in the Utah Jazz basketball market and pay much more attention to the Jazz than the Bills. Both clubs have lived a similar fate. Both their glory years and have wallowing in mediocrity ever since, placating the rabid fan bases.

For me though I find following the hopeful crop of new talent each year, much more enjoyable and accessible. There is one and done talent, four year talent and the wild card of them all is foreign talent to follow. Euro league games are on the internet. Olympic basketball can be interesting when arm chair scouting talent. The draft thread on the Jazz forum reaches in excess of 1,000 pages, and starts two years before the fact.

What's cool with NBA teams is that one late round pick can change a team quicker than one late round NFL player not named Tom Brady can effect a football team (Rudy Gobert). There is more hope in that.

[Mace]

I live in the Utah Jazz basketball market and pay much more attention to the Jazz than the Bills. Both clubs have lived a similar fate. Both their glory years and have wallowing in mediocrity ever since, placating the rabid fan bases.

For me though I find following the hopeful crop of new talent each year, much more enjoyable and accessible. There is one and done talent, four year talent and the wild card of them all is foreign talent to follow. Euro league games are on the internet. Olympic basketball can be interesting when arm chair scouting talent. The draft thread on the Jazz forum reaches in excess of 1,000 pages, and starts two years before the fact.

What's cool with NBA teams is that one late round pick can change a team quicker than one late round NFL player not named Tom Brady can effect a football team (Rudy Gobert). There is more hope in that.

Basketball is way faster paced, in talent development, pace of game, franchise turnaround where hockey is slower, younger kids, longer cycles. Football is in the middle.

But in basketball, within 2 years, you usually know whether a general player is something special, a variation roleplayer, or a variation of roster fodder pretty quick. In hockey, within 2 years you're looking to see how the player is in 4. In football, within 2 years you generally know how the guys whole career will go (no disrespect to Lorenzo Alexander, who isn't the norm). The roleplayers and roster fodder become generally interchangeable, a special player is more quickly limited by those supporting him, more players on the field more constantly become more vulnerable to scrutiny weekly.

Basketball, well you have less and more fast paced, with keener momentary scrutiny, but they shine or fail faster.

I always figured basketball is best for short attention span and quick result, hockey and baseball are slowest even if you think you have a quick result, and football is just an acquired patience where you're either going to like the game or not by your tolerance for unending cycles of dabbling with chemistry.

That's not a slam on the other sports, football just has 44 players interacting per cycle of possessions, giving you at least 352 player interactions on 2 normal possessions without a first down or substitutions. If you get some amusement from the units and players themselves, you stay amused, but if you're looking for grand results from those 352 interactions it becomes tedious quick, imho.

[Turf]

I'm surprised this turned into an NBA thread.

The only reason I brought up the NBA is because the receivers run Stevie Johnson type routes. 5 yards, little head fake and catch and run. It OK for basketball, but it isn't football.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm surprised this turned into an NBA thread.

The only reason I brought up the NBA is because the receivers run Stevie Johnson type routes. 5 yards, little head fake and catch and run. It OK for basketball, but it isn't football.

I have no idea how old you are but that's been the norm of the NFL since the early 80s and the West Coast Offense 49ers. It's a copycat league. Now instead of being strict WCOs, teams employ the spread and do the same thing.

You don't need a strong running game in the league anymore, you only need a pinpoint accurate QB who can throw 5 yard slants and then let the WR do the work. That play has taken care over, for the most part, of the old 4 yards and a cloud of dust style.

Meanwhile, here in Buffalo, we have a QB and OC who don't even believe in that play. We're a franchise stuck in 1970s winning football style, the problem is it didn't win in 1986 let alone 2016.

I think part of the disdain many have for the sport in general is that the hometown franchise hasn't advanced with the times and has a fanbase that still thinks power running is still a recipe for success.

[The Beef]

Gotta comment on the NBA, the product is very good to where it was 15 years ago. There's a lot of HOF talent in the league right now. Also LeBron is great for the league. Fringe fans love GREAT players. They will tune in to watch Lebron. Peyton had the same effect in Indy. Bandwagon fans in every city.

Now the NFL. Player safety comes first sure, but hits like the one Landry made DOES draw fans. People love to see someone get knocked out. You think people watch UFC PPV's to see someone win on points because they're technically superior? No. They want to see someone get knocked the **** out.

The crackdown on celebrations. As a kid I LOVED Deion Sanders. The high step, the trademark touchdown dance. Dude was electric. Same with Atlanta and the Dirty Bird. Chad Johnson and his plethora of TD celebrations. Younger viewers love that ****. Yes everyone appreciated Barry Sanders been there done that, but Stevie's Plaxico Shot In Leg celebration was FANTASTIC. It's an entertainment league, why are you limiting the entertainment aspect?

This is never mentioned, but the Red Zone channel is terrible for the league IMO. Why watch a game when you just get to see every important play across the league within minutes on Sunday?

Finally, the camera angle is so out dated. It's great for run plays, it's no longer a run first league. You don't see the play develop, you see the QB and then the tackle. If anything on 3rd downs they should switch to an angle behind the QB.

[ticatfan]

Gotta love the CFL. Guys playing the game they love for peanuts with a hope of making the big league. Not a bunch of over paid whiners.

[TacklingDummy]

I never liked basketball and still don't really follow it. Over the last couple of years I've finally seen basketball and hockey live. Now that I've seen all 4 major sports live I'd have to say in entertainment value watching them live I'd rank them...

1) NBA...even during commercial breaks there's something going on on the court.

2) Hockey..I don't really follow since the strike and "No Goal" but I have noticed the Sabres have been one of the worst teams in the league since ownership change. 2nd worst record in league again this year.

3) NFL: I actually fell asleep during the Cardinals game at the Ralph

4) MLB...throw a pitch...wait...throw a pitch...wait...pitching change...yawn...bring back steroids...at least that was exciting.

[stuckincincy]

I pretty muck left BB behind when they instituted the 3-point shot.

College teams shooting 25- 30% from the field now, NBA teams having 2 or 3 players feed 3 or 2 other players. The snappy passing is less - so much working the ball outside instead of inside. NBA clubs now have minimum and maximum roster size, and only have to activate 8 players for a game if they choose to. No thundering battles between a Wes Unseld and a Wilt Chamberlain and a Nate Thurmond and a Dave Cowens and so on. No putting in a Paul Silas or Gus Johnson to crash the board.

No more wow-wee scorers in college anymore. No Calvin Murphys, Pete Maravitches etc.

The final nail to me was Michal Jordan re-writing the rules about traveling.

My

[IlluminatusUIUC]

On the point of the NBA, that's how you have to get good in todays league. There's no benefit to be a middling team as every year there is one or two distinct difference makers in the draft. So teams who could maybe pull out 30 wins don't bother and would rather win like 12 to get that elite talent. It takes more than one of those elite talents, so you see teams in the tank for multiple years to acquire talent.

Then went you snatch up that kind of talent with the NBA's convoluted salary cap rules, bird rights, early bird rights, exceptions, you can then pay 2-4 of your own homegrown talent anything you want up to max salaries while going out and getting other pieces and paying them ridiculous salaries too. It takes that elite talent up front though to entice other elite talent to jump to your team. Without Kyrie and the trade chips for Love, does LeBron come back to Cleveland? It's an interesting question and I'm not sure if you can give a definitive answer. I am pretty sure he wouldn't want to come back to a team that had a roster that looked like the 06 Cavs though.

Finally, in the NBA, you need an owner who is willing to pay all that money out. To spend not only to the cap but well passed it. The Cavs can be assembled the way they currently are because Dan Gilbert is willing not only to pay to the cap but well passed it. So well passed it that the Cavs have the highest salary in the NBA and are looking about 30 million in luxury tax penalty this year.

It doesn't really have to do with small market vs large market, it's all on the willingness of an owner to go out and spend like a drunken sailor IF his talent evaluators have done a good job grabbing talent during the lean years.

It does matter though. Because the NBA has a hard cap on an individual player's contracts, there are several "max deal" guys who can only be offered the same contract by multiple teams. So you wind up with a situation where the lesser teams can't compete on price like we had to do with Mario Williams, and instead players choose teams either for the teammates or for the opportunities of the city. The Miami triplets formed when the three guys sat down and planned it all out at the 2008 Olympics, for example.

If this board was watching the Buffalo Braves derp to 35 wins a season and losing talent to LA and Miami, they wouldn't be in here talking about the quality of the NBA product.

Scoring is way down because the players and the coaches (outside of Belichick) all suck.

? Why are people saying scoring is way down? In 2014 the average team was at 22.6 points per game. In 2015 it was 22.8 points per game. In 2016 so far it is 22.7.

I pretty muck left BB behind when they instituted the 3-point shot

That was nearly 40 years ago. Jeez, man.

[stuckincincy]

That was nearly 40 years ago. Jeez, man.

36 years. Why the "Jeez, man?"


Consider the possibility that if you watched basketball as it was played many years ago, you might feel as I do.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

36 years. Why the "Jeez, man?"


Consider the possibility that if you watched basketball as it was played many years ago, you might feel as I do.

Maybe, but to me that's like pining for football from the days before the forward pass. It completely changed the game.

[YardRat]

I still enjoy college basketball. I agree with cinci, the evolution of Jordan and what they did to the game during his tenure just ruined it IMO.

[Mr. Pink]

It does matter though. Because the NBA has a hard cap on an individual player's contracts, there are several "max deal" guys who can only be offered the same contract by multiple teams. So you wind up with a situation where the lesser teams can't compete on price like we had to do with Mario Williams, and instead players choose teams either for the teammates or for the opportunities of the city. The Miami triplets formed when the three guys sat down and planned it all out at the 2008 Olympics, for example.

If this board was watching the Buffalo Braves derp to 35 wins a season and losing talent to LA and Miami, they wouldn't be in here talking about the quality of the NBA product.

Agree to disagree on the money part of the game. You can play anywhere and be good if you have an owner who's willing to spend the money and talent evaluators who can do their job. Especially with the NBAs convoluted cap rules. You can go over the cap to re-sign any of you own players at any price up to any amount of money in total for all those guys.

The Cavs were basically right on the cap when they re-upped JR Smith for 14 million a season. There was talk that if he didn't resign and instead went to Boston, allegedly the Celtics were interested, then the Cavs would have had about 2 million to spend on his replacement. It's also why last year when the Cavs were up against the so called cap, they were able to give Tristan Thompson a huge deal that far surpassed the cap.

If the Braves still existed and had an owner like Gilbert, then no one here would think the NBA sucked because the team would be good. However, in your example, if they derped to 30-35 wins a year every year, then people would feel the same towards the NBA that they do the NFL around here. If you're spinning your wheels in the NBA you're really going backward as the chance to hit on a pick after the top 5 is almost nil. Whereas in the NFL you can still strike gold in the latter rounds to turn your franchise around.

2nd round players in the NBA are nobodies for the most part. They're interchangeable parts that get traded around the league for future considerations or for someone to dump salary and get a trade exception to play with the "cap" Or they end up playing D League ball for years and then end up playing in Europe.

[Mr. Pink]

I still enjoy college basketball. I agree with cinci, the evolution of Jordan and what they did to the game during his tenure just ruined it IMO.

That's because the NBA has learned to protect it's star players and let them showcase their skills. The NFL has started to get the first part down but for some reason has completely stymied any sort of individuality.

The NHL is a whole nother ball of wax that does neither of those things. Which is why it's stuck being in a niche.

[DetDannyWilliams]

Rodriguez also reiterated the prediction he made last week to Sporting News that he believes baseball can overtake pro football and regain its lost title as America's Game.
"I don't want to be corny. But baseball is in a tremendous spot. Baseball was the No. 1 sport in America and I feel, I’m not sure when, we’re going to be back to No. 1 soon."

read:http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/world-series-2016-cubs-indians-fox-sports-broadcast-pregame-alex-rodriguez-pete-rose-frank-thomas-mlb-tv-ratings-nfl/1ffwhb7u3485b1ph1gm1nc4oab

Time	Show	Adults 18-49 Rating/Share	Viewers (millions)
8 p.m.	World Series Game 1 (FOX) (8-11 p.m.)	5.4/18	18.72

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/tv-ratings-tuesday-oct-25-2016/